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LM17 & Botting & Absolute VirtueFollow

#1 Apr 12 2008 at 8:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Disclaimer: My sole intention of this post is to get people thinking. Even if you disagree, i hope you can take away some kind of understanding or maybe motivation to improve your outlook on the game.

Aspects of the player's true self are always reflected to a certain degree in any avatar based MMORPG.

Whats interesting is, there is both good and bad to be seen. FFxi is alot like war, go with me, you see the best and the worst of humanity reflected in the way people behave, except in a online environment.

Some people are great friends, wonderful helpers, and selfless with their time and talents. While others are selfish, act ignorant, and will do anything to get what they want.

Given that last statement, its very clear that real world aspects are apparent in the virtual worlds like Vanadiel. Since we are able to communicate and interact with other human beings, there is a Reality in the virtual world. But it is because our Humanity is relfected in our avatars, that we are constantly changing.

No one player is always going to be helpful all the time and inversely, no one player is always going to be selfish. This is truely the reflection of ourselves in the virtual world. I can say for a fact, that there have been times when I myself have been selfish or even cheated people.

That being said, and given the fact that we take our humanity with us into the virtual world. We are also required to take our Ethics with us because they are intrinsically tied to our humanity. Which brings me to my point. Since people are bringing thier humanity and ethics into the game world, we have to realize that not everyone shares a similar ethical outlook with us in real life. There will be moral conflicts in the virtual world, just like there are in the real world.

On a side note, one thing that alarmed me was Kingofthejews' comment in the previous thread on LM17
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" Morals in a video game are you kidding me. That has to be the most idiotic thing I have ever heard. "


I dont care if your ethical outlook is corrupt or not. But for god's sake, do not forsake your humanity or your ethics simply because you think its only a game. ><!! If anything your acknowledgement that this is JUST A GAME, should point you to pursueing some kind of morals of Sportsmanship and Fairness which are a part of every game's basis. There are rules based on moral and ethics in every game and penalties to be paid for violating these rules.

There is morality in any online situation with people intereacting with others. Google "to catch a predator" and then try and tell me that you think its ridiculous to have morals in a virtual world. Or that our actions online are without moral consequence.

That is also not to say that Morals are only existant in multi-person interactions. You cannot forsake your ethics even in situations where you are the only one present. Take for example, what ive been hearing used alot, in defense of people who cheat in multiplayer games, the arguement "Well its just like using gameshark offline."

We really need to ask ourselves the question, is doing something wrong only wrong if others are hurt as a result of actions? My personal belief is no, if you do something wrong, it is not justifiable as long as "no one gets hurt." Take for instance, DUI, you can do it and not hurt anyone, but that doesnt change the initial inherently wrong and dangerous action.

When you use gameshark offline, you of course are not placing anyone in danger or commiting DUI, but really, the initial action is cheating. And by most ethical standards cheating is wrong. For example say, you cheat in FFX to get all the ultima weapons and have a more enjoyable game experience. That action is cheating, but its small time cheating. Its like stealing that 5 dollar bill from your grandma's purse. She was going to give it to you after you mowed her lawn but, you didnt want to do the work. You wanted it now. YOU deserve it.

Thats what cheating is. Selfish-ness. Impatience. Laziness and Greed. These are all aspects of humanity that get reflected in the virtual world.

LM17 may be bad at times, but I'm positive we are not in any position to judge them for their actions. There are also probably many redeeming qualities to the members of the LS. But once again it is not our place to praise or protest their way of life. If it is wrong, then give them enough rope and they will hang themselves. Or if it is right, let them show the entire server their benevolance. Either way, their final destiny or fate is in their own hands.

Most LSs in the game have a certain aspect of selfishness involved in their actions. And rightfully so, we all strive to be the Best and to "beat" the game. But we cannot forsake our morality along the way to becoming the best. Compare the pros and cons of botting. They are able to get every monster they want but they have to cheat. We all think those who bot have it easy but when we look at the action of botting in an envious or jealous way, we forsake our only defence against such injustice. Ourself and our own way of thought. We should feel sorry for them. They have lost sight of their dreams. They have lost sight of who they really are. They think that in order to win, they need to cheat. They are afraid to lose the claim because then they feel as if they will lose their friends and LS mates. Anyone else see the flaw there? They are afraid.

If you knew a botter for example, and were able to travel back in time to find him when he was noob to ask him what his dreams were? what do you think he would say? (this whole situation reminds me of the ending of Mr. Deeds lol (INTERNATIONAL HOUSE PANCAKE!)) I'm sure tho, they would not say, "i want to be the best botter there ever was, i want to manage a corporation-like community that is all about getting items."

When we were noobs or kids, we were un-clouded and unjaded. Everything was fun, everything new and exciting. You would be hard pressed to find anyone who immediately after buying a new game, goes straight into using their gameshark. This is because there is still potential to be had. uknowns to be confronted and journeys to discover.

People who bot, need to ask themselves. Why? what do I really hold dear? Is it the items i have? or the people who helped me get them? one of my friends, said in his bazzar for a long time "you see items, but i see friends and people i care about - TY" That is the attitude we should never lose. We should never lose our sense of childlike wonder in video games or in real life. For when we do, we actively expose ourself to the many dangers of boredom and jadedness.

Those who bot, are ruining the game not only for us, but for themselves. Take for example steroids in baseball as an analogy to botting in FFxi. The people who use steroids usually have tremoundous selfishness. They have thrown all their morals and ethics away to be the best. They lose sight of the journey and instead only see the result. They must win. They cannot lose. Whatever it takes.

But what I say and have always believed is that whether you win or lose, whether you get that item or not, it doesnt matter. The result cannot change the journey. If you camp King Behemoth with your friends and try your best, it shouldnt matter whether or not you get the claim or not. Its about friends and giving it your all. Likewise if you bot for the claim on KB, and have to spend a miserable time sitting there running a computer program with only yourself and the result in mind, you have endured a torture far worse than going 0/100 on KB claim.

I am not a LM17 hater, I just wanted to say that there is no way to deny the fact that morality comes into play with human interaction online and there are plenty of interesting situations that arise from this fact. What you deem "right" and "wrong" is entirely up to your own belief. You can always be a relativist when it comes to online problems. But there is no denying that there is an Absolute Virtue in game and in real life. That absolute virtue is Truth. Like an unfiltered chat log, Truth displays our actions to all those around us and ultimately determines if what we are doing is good or bad.
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#2Matricks, Posted: Apr 12 2008 at 10:07 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) ^^Nonsense^^
#3 Apr 12 2008 at 11:05 PM Rating: Default
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Not to defend LM17, but, /shrug. Everything you've said can be taken as subjective. Furthermore, transgressions of one sort or another have become a kind of virtue in counterculture circles. At least LM17 has the balls to man up to their actions whereas the rest of the botters just look the other way, something a lot of people seem to ignore. Do all the botters annoy me? Sure, but long ago I gave up on endgame stuff, and my experience in FFXI has become much more enjoyable.
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#4Kingofthejews, Posted: Apr 12 2008 at 11:43 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) This is funny. You sort of took what I typed out of context. Yeah we all play the game with a bit of ourselves, but I don't pay to act like this is church or anything. I'm actually a nice player most of the time, just ask the random people I raise.
#5 Apr 13 2008 at 12:15 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
If someone cuts you off in traffic you can't scream out the moral card. Just keep playing and you'll get the gear you want.


it's late and that made me lol
#6SevvKujata, Posted: Apr 13 2008 at 3:53 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) just wow...
#7Fhqwghads, Posted: Apr 13 2008 at 7:13 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) tl;dr
#8 Apr 13 2008 at 4:15 PM Rating: Decent
Well if there was no ethics or morality ingame there would be no banned players.
#9 Apr 13 2008 at 4:46 PM Rating: Default
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Interesting post, however I could care less about how any other player or LS goes about their business online.
#10 Apr 13 2008 at 7:35 PM Rating: Default
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In the end, this is just a game. You play games to have fun, relieve stress, whatever. People pay to play this game and have the right to play it however they want. You're comparing cheating and illegal acts in the real world to cheating in a virtual world. If cheating makes a game, particularly this game fun for them, then they have their right to cheat. They know the risks.
#11 Apr 13 2008 at 9:08 PM Rating: Good
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I'd have to say that while I agree with some of your points, writing an essay is not the way to get those points across.

I think peoples actions in the game reflect the person they are inside. And I think that your ethics and morals are shown by how you conduct yourself. Probably even more so in the game. Actions and behaviors that would get your ass handed to you irl can be gotten away with in the game.

A persons ethics are NOT situational. We all have a set of values that we live by, they are not all the same, and they are not always what we show the world at large, but we have them.

Honest people do not cheat, brave people do not act cowardly, selfless people are not selfish, etc.. If you say you are one type, but behave like the other, then you are a liar. If you act contrary to your professed values only in a game/virtual type situation, then you're probably a coward as well. By that I mean that you are afraid to be your true self irl because of the negative consequences it will bring.

I personally am not impressed by what gear you have. I care more about what sort of person you are. This even goes for those whom I used to consider friends in this game. Join the botters, and as far as I'm concerned, you're not who I thought you were. We will not be hanging anymore.
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#12 Apr 14 2008 at 9:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
A persons ethics are NOT situational. We all have a set of values that we live by, they are not all the same, and they are not always what we show the world at large, but we have them.


I agree with what Freylin said here. Ethics are not situational, but actions can be. It's also easy to see that not everyone's values are the same in game, as in real life. One frustration I've had with the game, in fact, is that the way that you choose to act and treat people is not always the same way they choose to act and treat you. In this way the game is just like real life.

Now, I don't have bad things to say about any one group, and in fact, I have some pretty good friends in LM17. I don't necessarily approve of certain actions that they take part in, not that this has any bearing at all on what they do, but I don't stop being friends with them because of this. Much like in real life, where I have friends that make choices in their lives that I disagree with, I can dislike the actions, while still accepting the person.

@KOJ -> As far as I have seen, you are a stand-up guy, and any interactions I have had have been positive. However, whether you like it or not, you will be associated with the company you keep. Much like in real life, if you hang out with a bunch of partiers and druggies you will be associated in that group, in game you are associated with those who bot or cheat.
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#13 Apr 14 2008 at 2:17 PM Rating: Good
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My only dealing with LMXVII was an invite to a burn party where as soon as I accepted I was D2'd. No one said anything and I didnt know any of them.

Ya it's funny till you have to walk back to Halvung from Windy. If it had been someone I knew I probably would have found it funny.

They however were the first six people I had blacklisted in the 5 years I have been playing this game.

That for me along with watching my room mate pull his hair out while watching his LS try and claim Fafnir and it popping already claimed was enough for me to take a "Darq" outlook on this game and forget about end game gear and crap.

So for me personally I see a LMXVII player, I'd rather just blacklist them now then deal with their crap later.

Edited, Apr 14th 2008 3:20pm by Daithi
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#14 Apr 14 2008 at 2:36 PM Rating: Good
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Daithi wrote:
My only dealing with LMXVII was an invite to a burn party where as soon as I accepted I was D2'd. No one said anything and I didnt know any of them.

Ya it's funny till you have to walk back to Halvung from Windy. If it had been someone I knew I probably would have found it funny.

They however were the first six people I had blacklisted in the 5 years I have been playing this game.

That for me along with watching my room mate pull his hair out while watching his LS try and claim Fafnir and it popping already claimed was enough for me to take a "Darq" outlook on this game and forget about end game gear and crap.

So for me personally I see a LMXVII player, I'd rather just blacklist them now then deal with their crap later.

Edited, Apr 14th 2008 3:20pm by Daithi


I dont post much.. but after I saw this I have to say something.

Squid is the absolute coolest cat I've met online and we have been playing together for a long time now. Going on our 6th year or so....

I was there that day that retard invited Squid to a party and them D2 him because he thought it was "Funny". Sure I know it was one guy, but hell.. that one guy is giving his LS a terrible reputation and I'm sure that they dont really care what others think about them. But just for that one incident alone, what they did to Squid was enough to make me steer clear of them.

They are going to allow jerk-offs like that in their LS then what does that say about their leadership and overall community involvement in general.

We are supposed to act and be some sort of Blah.Blah.Blah Community. This part of my IRL community usually ends up in jail or friendless if they act this way.

But whatever.. Darquette is my friend and whatever he says I do cause he's just got me wrapped around his finger like the late great Jim Jones. Lets Drink the Juice Squid..

Peace-

Edited for typos and grammer..but IDC I just left them in for your eyes to bleed. And to make you a bit more Stu-

Edited, Apr 14th 2008 6:39pm by LoonTA
#15 Apr 16 2008 at 7:01 AM Rating: Default
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Matricks wrote:
But at this point, I think the only statement you can make about LM17 is that they disregard the rules in order to enjoy themselves with their friends more.


Hi ya Mat. ^^ I think you summarized it very well above.

If you look up the word "game" one of the definitions is "a competitive activity involving skill, chance, or endurance on the part of two or more persons who play according to a set of rules, usually for their own amusement" (from dictionary.com).

We all play FFXI for our own amusement. It is "expected" by SE and the general player base that we all play the game within the rules set. Ignoring the rules/cheating to further enhance your personal enjoyment of the game would not so much be a problem if it had no impact on other people that play (i.e. if you were cheating playing FFXII).

Regardless of how nice or morally upstanding they may be as a person, their actions taken in the game to circumvent game mechanics to their personal advantage is not something others can condone if they are directly impacted.
#16 Apr 16 2008 at 7:21 PM Rating: Decent
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thanks for reading and responding, i appreciate the thoughts you guys put out on the table
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#17 Apr 17 2008 at 2:41 PM Rating: Good
numberonejerk wrote:
In the end, this is just a game. You play games to have fun, relieve stress, whatever. People pay to play this game and have the right to play it however they want. You're comparing cheating and illegal acts in the real world to cheating in a virtual world. If cheating makes a game, particularly this game fun for them, then they have their right to cheat. They know the risks.


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#18 Apr 18 2008 at 2:35 AM Rating: Decent
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/sigh, well I know as a LMXVII member I'm ganna get flamed, but wth.

Yea it's sh*tty the situation it leaves you guys in. Believe it or not being a botter is not a requirement to be in LMXVII. I know because I have never botted in my career nor will I ever risk my account to do so. Don't believe me if you like, w/e.

I have been friends with the people in the shell for years and have camped HNMs with about 1/2 of them (the ones from FS) for a long time. Then again, I've been camping HNMs with all of them for 173 days. In FS we were originally told the shell was anti-bot. Well guess what? There were botters. Even when you think your not associating with botters, you damn well might be. I'm not ganna abandon all these people no matter how long I play.

I remember how pissed off I'd get when Atariii would claim and I'd be sitting there high and dry. I would call them cheaters and get all pissy. How naive I was to the actual situation. I can understand and respect your view.

In the end, yes I choose to team up with LMXVII. Mostly because HNM is what interests me in the game. Yes I do other sh*t... to make myself better at HNM.

Kinda forgot what my point was with this post so I'll make the best of it.

I have been spending... a lot of time every day camping Kings. Most of the time it's a NQ pop that means sh*t except maybe a chance of getting to /random for some gil. Also w/e Cerberus/Tiamat/Khimaira pop I drop ANYTHING I'm doing and get my ass there to hold the damn thing.

I used to have these "ethics" too. But then I camped every day for years strait (even staying up all night to camp that HQ that you probably won't even be able to kill because people just plain pass out, nevertheless claim). I've rearranged the time I work IRL for HNMs (I'm lucky I can do that and it's NP). Most of you can't understand why I accept being part of this because you have not spent COUNTLESS hours doing this sh*t for years. But let me tell you. After going to Fafnir camp for 10 days w/out a Nidhogg pop and spending up to 3.5hrs there, it @#%^ing sucks to lose the claim. And to be quite frank, we still lose claims. We are not the only ones with bots. I have even claimed on rare occasion w/out bots. YES I KNOW THIS ISN'T A JUSTIFIABLE REASON! But to hell with ethics at this point, I better be tanking a @#%^ing Nidhogg! I might catch sh*t for saying this.

There it is. Plain, simple, and if you like, selfish (quite). These camps are not for those but the most dedicated.

Still does this make me a bad person irl(LMAO) or even in game? Sure not everyone in the LS is a "nice person" to everyone. They still have their friends. Personally, I try my damnedest to treat everyone as best I can while still fitting into this LS. I will spend however long it takes to answer questions from any random player on anything I feel I have a good grasp on. I will help new PLDs that strike me as intelligent players camp Charybdis (even though the best I can do in this situation is PLD/RDM). Advise those who I think are "ready" on gear choices and try to teach them how to make effective gear sets for w/e they are trying to achive (I will admit this is a never ending learning process that one can never fully master). I will help on O-Hat runs to make sure people who are inexperienced don't lose their pop items (this is less of a problem lately seeing how this NM has become a joke). I volunteer for Divine Might runs to ensure they have a good tank and quite often the responsibility of setting up parties and assigning tasks in the fight falls on my shoulders to the point where the "leader" asks me to take over. I help out with people who shout for WSNMs. The list goes on and on and on and on.

My point here... Yes I am LMXVII, and an unidentifiable (to me) number of us bot (though I do not know specifically who, though I have my suspicions). I am sorry to all those of you who are cheated by this process. The way Kings are setup this is an unavoidable situation to me. One that I just have decided I am already a part of and will continue to be part of because of how involved I have already become. Does that make me the scum of Ifrit? That is up to you. I hope you understand where I am coming from.

Edit- I am sure there are some people in LMXVII who think I am retarded for the great lengths I go into trying to help those I barely know (quite often, just met). Heck most of them probably think I'm retarded in general. You cannot judge the LS as a whole. I <3 everyone in the shell no matter what. I will agree this is ezier for some than others expessially when it comes to how they treat you. If you take anything from this post I hope it is that there are some damn fine people in this LS who are wonderfull people, and I am not trying to imply myself. If anyone has ever met Jiggswife (for example)... You cannot know anyone more sweet and friendly.

Edited, Apr 18th 2008 3:52am by Gabbers
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#19 Apr 18 2008 at 9:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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It doesn't make you bad people per se, it just paints you as people who are willing to cut corners and circumvent the rules to achieve something. The amount of potential frustration that's involved doesn't change the fact that it's cheating, as you admitted.

It's just like in RL really. Some people lie and cheat and steal to get ahead and even though they may justify it and it may not really be that terrible, it still frustrates the hell out of those of us who are unwilling to cross certain lines and have set moral boundaries for ourselves. (take the word "moral" with a grain of salt in this instance) It's probably a form of jealousy, but it also violates people's sense of justice when they see people succeeding like that. It just ain't fair.

Really, when you cheat you're not just saying "screw you" to SE's rules, you're saying "screw you" to the rest of the server that isn't in LM17, or at least those of us who don't cheat. You can't expect to be popular with an attitude like that, no matter how friendly you think you all are.

Edited, Apr 18th 2008 1:23pm by Filian
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#20 Apr 18 2008 at 9:25 AM Rating: Decent
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LMXVII is the root of all evil. /end thread
#21RngStratous, Posted: Apr 18 2008 at 3:48 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I also am a member of LMXVII and I must agree that Jiggswife is the nicest person in FFXI. I understand that botting is against the rules. The problem is that certain people dont follow the rules, which in turn makes others who would not use bots use them just to be competitive. If you cant make people stop using them, then the only way to keep things fair is to even the playing field. The only way to even the playing field is to ,1. Get rid of all bots on the server, or 2. bot yourself. I have never botted and at one point was blantly against it, but as more people began to bot, the more I began to see that I would have to in order to obtain the HNM gear. Unfourtnly for me, I became bored with the game and quit before I decided to use outside scripts.
#22 Apr 18 2008 at 9:24 PM Rating: Default
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Does anyone in LMXVII even have a job? Have any of your balls dropped? Seen sunlight recently?
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#23Kingofthejews, Posted: Apr 19 2008 at 12:45 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Go to college, have a gf, and do what i want. Have you come up with any better putdowns since the 80's grandpa? Why do we need to miss rl? Our LS is all automated am I right?
#24 Apr 19 2008 at 1:04 AM Rating: Decent
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fraguar just won the thread by stooping to 4th grade insults. it's only a matter of days before your shell is torn apart from the inside out.
#25 Apr 19 2008 at 3:45 AM Rating: Default
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"Fraguar" wrote:
Does anyone in LMXVII even have a job? Have any of your balls dropped? Seen sunlight recently?

lol. how do yo think we pay our monthly fees nevertheless pay rent/mortgage? I get out quite a bit myself tyvm. I have to have a tan for my body building competitions. FU man, you don't know me irl or in game. YOU KNOW sh*t EXCEPT THAT YOU DON'T LIKE ME BECAUSE I'M LMXVII!!!

Edit- keep it to sh*t you know. You know we have botters in LMXVII. You can't take this to irl/personal level because there is just no @#%^ing way you know about this stuff. Maybe your right. Maybe there are 10yr olds in our LS who's balls haven't dropped... maybe some members don't experience life outside of FFXI. Do you know? No, you do not.
Edited, Apr 19th 2008 4:45am by Gabbers

Edited, Apr 19th 2008 5:11am by Gabbers
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#26 Apr 19 2008 at 8:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Rofl, i go unphased by your response, main reason i left ifrit right there, a bunch of loot whore botting morons who dont know sh*t. It's amazing how endgame actually exists on other servers. Claiming NM's? OMFG unbelievable. So people actually compete for claims, instead of botting and blaming SE for all of their problems.

"The botting is SE's problem, until they fix it we will continue to do what we want, when we want"

That was an actual quote that I heard from an LM-17 member.

Are you kidding me? Look at any other online game, ill pick one out of the air, Lets say Counterstrike.

I used to play in the highest levels of CS. CAL-Invite, many LAN tournament wins, even a few CPL's under my belt.

Lets take a look at what happens if ur caught cheating there.

As far as CAL rules - 1 Year ban, and full suspension of your account for the full years series. Plus you IP address and Full steam info gets posted for everyone to see, so you would likely have no future at all when you come back.

So the more you blame the manufacturer for the problems in a game, the more stupid it makes you look.

Edited, Apr 19th 2008 12:37pm by Fraguar
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#27 Apr 19 2008 at 6:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Hi ignorant poster above me, I'm the voice of reason.

Compare the FFXI "botting" situation to a game more like it. I'm sure if people were botting in ballista, or PVP in FF at all, it would be taken care of. Pick a game that's not strictly PVP when comparing it to something that's almost strictly PVE these days.

#28 Apr 19 2008 at 7:25 PM Rating: Default
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I'll just rofl at this thread, and go about my day.
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#29 Apr 21 2008 at 2:18 AM Rating: Good
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Fraguar wrote:
Does anyone in LMXVII even have a job? Have any of your balls dropped? Seen sunlight recently?


You hate them so much yet you bought a BB item off them correct?
~love chuck
#30 Apr 21 2008 at 3:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Hate to break it to you but every server bots, along with the linkshells on the server you moved to.
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#31 Apr 21 2008 at 7:28 PM Rating: Default
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lol 100k, sue me, no one gives a flying @#%^ except you, so yeah.
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#32 Apr 21 2008 at 7:31 PM Rating: Default
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and LoL at you creating an account just to make one post about that roflrofl

Lets see, spend 100k on a Virtual item and be happy? Or i could still be waiting for the sh*t? Ill spend the 100k. Also i never really shoulda made that comment about LM-17 members, for that I'm sorry, i made a hasty decision to ride the dramallama. :(
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#33 Apr 21 2008 at 7:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Actually made an account a long time ago, just never posted.
#34 Apr 21 2008 at 7:58 PM Rating: Default
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and what a productive post it was, beating up a 6 month old topic, while at the same time making yourself look like the biggest moron since Asteroth. Do us all a favor and put this game down for a week or two.
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#35 Apr 21 2008 at 7:59 PM Rating: Decent
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57 posts
lol just thought, this could be good, a thread about LM-17 turns into frag and chuck's drama hour. Hit me with your best shot hoe

Edited, Apr 21st 2008 11:59pm by Fraguar
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#36 Apr 22 2008 at 6:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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2,817 posts
If you bought an item off LMXVII you have zero room to talk. Your opinion = no value.

Since this topic seems to come up so often I'll post my typical response. I don't like botting. But the reality is, botting is here to stay until the mechanics of the game make bots obsolete. The sooner people realize this, the sooner everyone's blood pressure will go down. If LM-17 didn't bot, everyone would just be pointing fingers at the next shell who dominates open HNM camps. I'm sure most people understand this, but I'll reiterate anyway: LM-17 is not the only botting shell. If they jumped servers or were all banned in one fell swoop do you honestly think non-botting linkshells would be suddenly claiming their fair share of Fafnirs and KBs? Keep dreaming. Other botting linkshells would be gobbling them up left and right.

It's pretty blatantly obvious that the original vision SE had for HNMs was completely unrealistic and unworkable. They put these mobs on long timers to discourage people from camping them, so that walking through Attowah Chasm for example would always leave one wondering if Tiamat was up to blast their ass with some fiery action. The reality is these mobs are predictable as hell with their windows (king camps) or people just stick mules out at the camps (Khaimaira, Tiamat) with bots that notify the linkshell as soon as the mobs are up.

As long as desirable mobs are spawned in the open, people will do whatever it takes to secure claim on them. Until SE gets this through their thick heads, anyone who does not bot will be on the bottom rung of the ladder. The sooner people just accept this fact, the better. You will either bot and get more claims, or you will watch as the hours you spend at these camps is mostly for naught, as the bots will out-claim non-botters the majority of the time. I'm not saying claim is impossible for non-botters (we have out-claimed LM-17 a few times) but what I am saying is the reward vs. time spent when a linkshell does not bot is not worth it, in my opinion. Not unless that linkshell has members with the patience of saints as well as lots of time on their hands.
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FFXI:
Fhqwghads - Galka - 75NIN/75DRK/75SAM/75MNK - Ifrit Server- Rank 10 - ZM Done - COP done
Too many merits to list, too many subjobs to list...
Trogdoor - Tarutaru - 75BLM/50BRD/41WHM - Ifrit Server- Rank 6 - ZM Done
#37 Apr 24 2008 at 7:20 PM Rating: Default
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233 posts
you know, if you really don't like the way LM17 does things just don't do HNM, nice thing about this game is that there are allot of end game options with decent equip from all of them. You don't need Ridill to have fun, though I am sure it wouldn't hurt... Either way if LM17 steps down someone else will move in. Get used to it.
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Daniel 75rdm Ifrit
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99 cooking.

#38 Apr 29 2008 at 12:04 PM Rating: Good
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122 posts
A~M~E~N Fhqwghads

Edit: And DANIEL!

Edited, Apr 30th 2008 4:15pm by Vahnslet
#39 May 02 2008 at 1:31 PM Rating: Default
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216 posts
Lol. Dan and Fwq have flawless points. Will end with that.

Hi, btw Ifrit, what else is new? o.O

EDIT: Post Count+1

Fathoover where are you you hoe! Say hi to me
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#40 May 03 2008 at 12:18 AM Rating: Default
49 posts
Fhqwghads wrote:
If you bought an BLACKBELT item off LMXVII you have zero room to talk. Your opinion = no value.


/thread. gtfo

in before my trolls rate me down to sub hahaha

Edited, May 3rd 2008 4:20am by Ulgokiem
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:::Ifrit server:::
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LS: SPQR
--Retired--
#41 May 04 2008 at 1:28 AM Rating: Default
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122 posts
Buying drops and R/E things from linkshells is not a crime... its called some linkshells are not still stuck in an expansion that is 4 years old and don't really need every little drop for their members and would like to make a small profit by simply speeding up a newer player's process of obtaining old but reliable items ~ ( Byakko's Haidate )...

So that a new sky LS that is destined to phail doesn't form and result in MOAR FLAME THREADS about how such and such Ninja lotted some A. hands BooHoo!

Get with the times fellow Adventurers <3

#42 May 18 2008 at 7:05 PM Rating: Default
10 posts
Hi Esca ^^
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#43 May 22 2008 at 4:26 AM Rating: Default
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216 posts
doooood Hi

Lawls Commander Rank in BattleField 2 now ... Got my Last and Final Sniper Upgrade...should check me out online sometime and get on my server I own .. D: Lataz hoser
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#44 May 31 2008 at 11:53 PM Rating: Good
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660 posts
Well, I haven't played on Ifrit in almost 2 years now. LMXVII is known on my server as the worst thing to ever happen to FFXI. The funniest part is that most of the people who talk about it, bot themselves.

I know four people including myself who moved To Quetz from Ifrit, and are better off because of it. YES, it does suck sometimes to know that there are people who bot. YES, it's annoying. There's nothing anyone can do about it. I know for a fact that my ls leader bots. But he's barely at Faf/nid because he has real life obligations, and we still claim.

Don't get your panties in a twist though. I know of at least one person in each shell on Quetz that bots. So it's not like I joined a botter shell and am completely ok with it. I'm really not. It's frustrating sometimes. But these people aren't bad people. Just because you cheat in a video game doesn't mean you're going to go out and do sh*tty things to people in real life. In FFXI the consequences aren't nearly as bad as they are irl.

Cheating on your husband or wife? They'll likely leave you. Cheating in a video game? People that don't know you, and likely never will know you may hate you. But I can imagine how that doesn't really bother a lot of people. Myself? I don't really enjoy people disliking me. Soooo.. I try to to be the best person I can be for everyone involved.

I'm sure it's frustrating watching these people take NM after NM after NM. But it's not like you don't have choices. You could transfer servers. A lot of people do that. But I'm sure a lot of you have friends who wouldn't want to leave behind. Remember those friends. People you obviously care about. I look at it from a what's more important perspective. Getting that ridill that you botted off Fafnir, and spending time with your friends... Your friends are the memories you'll take with you once you leave FFXI.

I just can't imagine why anyone would want to remember FFXI by thinking "OMG I remember the time we botted Fafnir every day for 3 months and I got all my awesome gear.. hm.. I wish I wouldn't have lost all those friends over it." I dno.. maybe their morals won't catch up with them. Maybe they will. Either way. .. Don't frustrate yourself over it too much. It's not worth the trouble. If they really are good people.. even if it's just a game, they'll lose a part of themselves to it.

Not really sure why I posted here. I never do anymore. Moved on and what not. But I just wanted to say hi.. And that I'm sorry all of you guys are in such a crappy situation. <3
#45 Jun 15 2008 at 1:18 AM Rating: Default
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68 posts
I'm sorry, I cant thinkt his early in the morning..
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