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#152 Jan 31 2013 at 12:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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#153 Jan 31 2013 at 1:18 PM Rating: Excellent
Torrence wrote:


Smasharoo wrote:

Is rape involving age of consent without force worse than burning a house to the ground with people inside? Currently as a society we say yes in most cases. That's the issue. The scale of the horror. Not that there is any.


I'm still trying to figure out wtf you are saying here. Are you talking about statuatory rape? Well, that's a completely separate issue from the rape I (and I think most people in this thread) was talking about. I was talking about the kind of rape where a woman says no, and a man does it anyway. Do I think that a seventeen year old girl begging her mother not to press charges on her nineteen year old boyfriend is something to compare to someone burning people alive? Of course not. Don't be a moron.

Yeah, you misunderstood. He was limiting this to a discussion about adults.

Edited, Jan 31st 2013 1:18pm by Xsarus
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#154 Jan 31 2013 at 1:46 PM Rating: Decent
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It sure could be. Rape doesn't just disappear after it's happened, the same as with being blinded or disfigured. If there is transmission of an STD or a pregnancy involved, it's even more permanent. Just because the scars aren't visible to you, doesn't mean they aren't there.


Thanks for crystallizing the problem. Blinded for life, chlamydia, yeah about the same.
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#155 Jan 31 2013 at 1:50 PM Rating: Good
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There are fatal STDs. That's not at all the problem with what you quoted.
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#156 Jan 31 2013 at 1:54 PM Rating: Good
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There are fatal STDs. That's not at all the problem with what you quoted.

Yeah, I guess. If you're raped, then die as a result, that's murder. See the problem? Adding other severe crimes to rape to make "rape" that much more serious sort of misses the point, doesn't it?

Oh, rape can be worse than being maimed if you get a fatal disease from it? Holy sh*t, you're right! You know what, if you're speeding and drive into a ditch full of TNT and it goes off, that's way worse than being raped and not dying. Let's make speeding punishible by death.

Fuck you people are stupid.
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#157 Jan 31 2013 at 2:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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The "but you could get an STD" argument should really be separated.

If you DO get an STD, then okay, that adds to the severity of the crime. In the rare case it's HIV, then that's a lot worse, although criminal HIV transmission is itself a separate crime.

If you don't get an STD, or the rapist wasn't infected, then it's not an issue. Unless you're talking about the weeks of worrying until test results come back, which is a pretty minor issue compared to the rape itself.
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#158 Jan 31 2013 at 2:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Smasharoo wrote:

Thanks for crystallizing the problem. Blinded for life, chlamydia, yeah about the same.


Blinded for life, HIV. Meh, no big deal, right?

I'm not saying that someone stabbing your eyes out should get a free pass. Are we just sending them home with a "naughty boy, don't do that again" after they've stabbed someone in the head? Well maybe if they are a sports star, but average Joe has a far greater chance of going to jail for a couple decades if he stabs Jen in the head than if he "just" rapes her. So what on earth are you outraged about, anyway? Not like we aren't punishing these criminals "proportional" to their crimes.

So then you are angry that the perception of rape is evolving. Not a bad thing. It's a heinous and vicious crime and does deserve the spotlight.

Edited, Jan 31st 2013 3:08pm by Torrence
#159 Jan 31 2013 at 2:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Smasharoo wrote:
There are fatal STDs. That's not at all the problem with what you quoted.

Yeah, I guess. If you're raped, then die as a result, that's murder. See the problem? Adding other severe crimes to rape to make "rape" that much more serious sort of misses the point, doesn't it?

Oh, rape can be worse than being maimed if you get a fatal disease from it? Holy sh*t, you're right! You know what, if you're speeding and drive into a ditch full of TNT and it goes off, that's way worse than being raped and not dying. Let's make speeding punishible by death.

Fuck you people are stupid.


Yeah, the problem with what they said is that these consequences are not a necessary part of rape. The problem is that STDs are not necessarily a part of rape. The problem is not that these consequences are less serious than a certain kind of assault. The problem is not that STDs are less serious than blindness.

Now, what did your post identify as the problem? Let me take you by the fucking hand.

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Yeah, I guess. If you're raped, then die as a result, that's murder.


Are you making an ethical or legal claim? The latter is not necessarily true.
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#160 Jan 31 2013 at 2:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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If you get stabbed with a rusty knife and then you get tetanus, that's worse than rape where you get penis-stabbed but no tetanus Smiley: schooled
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#161 Jan 31 2013 at 2:13 PM Rating: Excellent
What if they strapped a rusty knife coated in HIV to their penis?
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#162 Jan 31 2013 at 2:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Class III misdemeanor.
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#163 Jan 31 2013 at 2:15 PM Rating: Good
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Torrence wrote:

I'm not saying that someone stabbing your eyes out should get a free pass.
Really? When I read between your words, skipped over some parts, distorted your language and meanings a bit, then simply decided that for a response I'd just go with what i assume you said - that's exactly what I read.

Weird.











Edited, Jan 31st 2013 9:31pm by Elinda
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#164 Jan 31 2013 at 2:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Kavekk wrote:

Yeah, the problem with what they said is that these consequences are not a necessary part of rape. The problem is that STDs are not necessarily a part of rape. The problem is not that these consequences are less serious than a certain kind of assault. The problem is not that STDs are less serious than blindness.


Except, that I didn't say that they were a necessary part of rape. What I said was, "if" these things happened in addition to the rape, it makes it even worse. Which it does. So in that case, not only are you walking around with a broken spirit because someone violated your body without your consent and caused you psychological and quite possibly physical pain in the process, but now you have an extra reminder in the form of a disease you have to deal with or a pregnancy you now have to decide how to handle.

Is murder a terrible crime? Sure. Is someone stabbing your eyes out a violent and vicious act that ought to be punished? Yep again. If someone chops off your arms should they be tossed in jail and should you be afforded justice and sympathy?

Of course, but we can't use those as excuses for ignoring rape as a crime. It's a crime, and no amount of "but, but, it could be worse!!!!" can change that.
#165 Jan 31 2013 at 2:24 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
If you get stabbed with a rusty knife and then you get tetanus, that's worse than rape where you get penis-stabbed but no tetanus Smiley: schooled


But better than a penis stab where you do get tetanus.
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#166 Jan 31 2013 at 2:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Who in God's name is denying it's a crime. The argument (and heaven forgive me for opining on this idiotic topic when I could be debating how many inches are in a foot) is that we, as a society and reflected in our legal system, place more weight on rape as a crime than it perhaps objectively deserves when weighed against other forms of assault or bodily harm. We do so because of society's views on sex, virtue and other related things.

I don't really have a strong opinion on whether this argument has merit but it's not a difficult argument to noodle out.

Edited, Jan 31st 2013 2:27pm by Jophiel
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#167 Jan 31 2013 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
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Torrence wrote:

Of course, but we can't use those as excuses for ignoring rape as a crime. It's a crime, and no amount of "but, but, it could be worse!!!!" can change that.
Show me where in this thread someone advocated for rape to be ignored?


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#168 Jan 31 2013 at 2:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
What if they strapped a rusty knife coated in HIV to their penis?

Oh, someone else liked that movie, "Se7en"? Smiley: nod
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#169 Jan 31 2013 at 2:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Of course, but we can't use those as excuses for ignoring rape as a crime.

Nope, we can. All of my posts have been arguing for ignoring rape as a crime.

Your rhetorical powers are astonishing.
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#170 Jan 31 2013 at 3:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
The argument (and heaven forgive me for opining on this idiotic topic when I could be debating how many inches are in a foot) is that we, as a society and reflected in our legal system, place more weight on rape as a crime than it perhaps objectively deserves when weighed against other forms of assault or bodily harm.


Yea but why address that when I can just make sh*t up?

I don't see us as a society really punishing rapists disproportionately in relation to other crimes. In many cases, rapists aren't even arrested. The nearest data I can find is from 09 in which 25% of those rapes reported even resulted in an arrest. That's not even conviction - That's just arrests. Are we really convicting as many rapists and as severely as is being suggested?
#171 Jan 31 2013 at 3:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Torrence wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
The argument (and heaven forgive me for opining on this idiotic topic when I could be debating how many inches are in a foot) is that we, as a society and reflected in our legal system, place more weight on rape as a crime than it perhaps objectively deserves when weighed against other forms of assault or bodily harm.


Yea but why address that when I can just make sh*t up?

I don't see us as a society really punishing rapists disproportionately in relation to other crimes. In many cases, rapists aren't even arrested. The nearest data I can find is from 09 in which 25% of those rapes reported even resulted in an arrest. That's not even conviction - That's just arrests. Are we really convicting as many rapists and as severely as is being suggested?


I'm curious, how many rape cases that actually get a conviction are statutory vs other? I'd be willing to bet the ratio of statutory rape cases is fairly high, because it seems to me that it's usually easier to collect evidence and prosecute.
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#172 Jan 31 2013 at 3:47 PM Rating: Decent
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BrownDuck wrote:


I'm curious, how many rape cases that actually get a conviction are statutory vs other? I'd be willing to bet the ratio of statutory rape cases is fairly high, because it seems to me that it's usually easier to collect evidence and prosecute.


I'd agree. Those cases of statuatory (without force) rapes probably have a higher percentage just because of parent outrage and the kids usually not denying the act took place. Still, that's a separate issue and not one I disagreed with Smasharoo on. No way do I think 19 year old Joe should spend a decade in jail because 17 year old Jenny's mom found out they were having sex and blew a gasket.

But it's definitely harder to get a conviction on a rape than to get one on a guy who poured sulfuric acid in your eyes. Hell, if RAINN can be believed 97% of arrested rapists that actually make it to a trial don't even spend a day in jail. I don't really see us as a society making much of an example of rapists in the way that is being suggested.

#173 Jan 31 2013 at 3:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Torrence wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
The argument (and heaven forgive me for opining on this idiotic topic when I could be debating how many inches are in a foot) is that we, as a society and reflected in our legal system, place more weight on rape as a crime than it perhaps objectively deserves when weighed against other forms of assault or bodily harm.


Yea but why address that when I can just make sh*t up?

I don't see us as a society really punishing rapists disproportionately in relation to other crimes. In many cases, rapists aren't even arrested. The nearest data I can find is from 09 in which 25% of those rapes reported even resulted in an arrest. That's not even conviction - That's just arrests. Are we really convicting as many rapists and as severely as is being suggested?

You're really conflating a couple different things here. The ability to prosecute and the sentencing.


Edited, Jan 31st 2013 3:49pm by trickybeck
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#174 Jan 31 2013 at 3:54 PM Rating: Decent
Worst. Thread. Ever.
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#175 Jan 31 2013 at 4:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Worst. Thread. Ever.

This.
#176 Jan 31 2013 at 5:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, I'm done. I feel violated by the quality of this thread. I took nine showers, but I still feel dirty.
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#177 Jan 31 2013 at 6:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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You still feel dirty because one of the showers gave you AIDS.
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#178 Jan 31 2013 at 6:43 PM Rating: Good
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And the others were in blinding acid.

You should probably call a plumber.
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#179 Jan 31 2013 at 10:07 PM Rating: Excellent
You probably want to get a restraining order against your shower.
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#180 Feb 01 2013 at 1:04 AM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
Yeah, I'm done. I feel violated by the quality of this thread. I took nine showers, but I still feel dirty.
Try scrubbing with some sandpaper, it may help you get rid of the worst bits.
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#181 Feb 01 2013 at 8:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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You still feel dirty because one of the showers gave you AIDS.
Didn't leave marks so wasn't violated.
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#182 Feb 01 2013 at 2:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Nadenu wrote:
Omegavegeta wrote:
Worst. Thread. Ever.

This.

This thread is like the inhabitants of a special ed classroom arguing over the merits of eating paste vs drinking glue. Moreso than any other given thread here.
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#183 Feb 01 2013 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
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Without an accurate modifier we don't know whether it really is the worst thread ever, or the best thread ever and just a marketing ploy to make you simpletons believe it is the worst.
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#184 Feb 01 2013 at 4:00 PM Rating: Good
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Since this is the worst thread ever, I think I'll go ahead and Godwin's it by linking to the worst case against Obama I've ever read:

The best part:

Quote:
Nazism may have been an ideology to which the United States was — and to which the president is — implacably opposed, but it is hardly “senseless.” By the early 1930s, the Nazi party had hundreds of thousands of devoted members and repeatedly attracted a third of the votes in German elections; its political leaders campaigned on a platform comprising 25 non-senseless points, including the “unification of all Germans,” a demand for “land and territory for the sustenance of our people,” and an assertion that “no Jew can be a member of the race.” Suffice it to say, many sensible Germans were persuaded.


I want gbaji to defend this SO HARD.
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#185 Feb 01 2013 at 5:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't. I'd rather Gbaji note that it's bone-stupid and the NRO should be ashamed for wasting pixels on that crap.
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#186 Feb 01 2013 at 5:37 PM Rating: Good
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Ya, him doing mental gymnastics to defend the crazies on his side is the norm.
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#187 Feb 02 2013 at 4:04 PM Rating: Excellent
This really is an thread, and I've seen a few. ... But the worst?
#188 Feb 02 2013 at 4:53 PM Rating: Excellent
Every bad thread is the worst thread ever. Smiley: schooled
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#189 Feb 02 2013 at 5:32 PM Rating: Good
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#190 Feb 02 2013 at 9:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yes. Worst. Smiley: motz

Well, worst rape thread.

Smiley: boozing
#191 Feb 02 2013 at 10:05 PM Rating: Good
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#192 Feb 02 2013 at 11:04 PM Rating: Good
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Yes. Worst. Smiley: motz

Well, worst rape thread.

Smiley: boozing


It's really been traumatizing.
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#193 Feb 04 2013 at 5:17 PM Rating: Default
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Torrence wrote:
If I am understanding you correctly, you are arguing that somehow rape isn't so bad if the woman manages to make it out of the ordeal alive. I cannot believe that even you could say something so absolutely insulting and disgusting.


You do not understand me correctly. Could be I'm not communicating clearly enough. Don't know. You're correct though, that would be insulting and disgusting. It's also not remotely close to what I'm trying to say.

Quote:
So if I am forced to the ground, penetrated viciously and I fail to fight back after the attacker I can't even see says "make one sound and you'll die", it's not really much of a crime at all. After all, I could have chosen to die instead of just being raped, right?


No. It's a serious crime. But even serious crimes often can't result in conviction unless there is a degree of evidence sufficient to prove both that a crime occurred *and* that the defendant committed it. This is how our legal system works. My point is that we should be aware of this limitation when considering an issue like this and not go off into the weeds talking about hypotheticals that don't apply. In the case you describe, I'm assuming being "penetrated viciously" resulted in sufficient damage to prove that non-consensual sex had occurred. So it's not relevant to the discussion at hand.

What is relevant are cases where a woman goes to a club, meets some guy, has drinks with him, dances with him, makes out with him, gets in a cab with him, goes to his place, then realizes she really doesn't want to have sex with him but is afraid that if she denies him, he might become physically violent. Perhaps he does threaten her. Maybe he just implies it. Maybe he just acts crazy and she's scared now that she's alone with him. Who knows? The point being that if at that point she makes a decision to give in to having sex with him in order to avoid the potential of violence, she may very well be making the correct decision. Maybe he would have beat her. Maybe he would panic and kill her afterwords in order to avoid criminal charges for rape. Or maybe he's just playing a fine line between intimidation and threat in the hopes that she'll give him what he wants without him actually having to commit a crime. There's no way to know. Hell, the woman in that situation can't know for sure either, right? But regardless of what would have happened or what might have happened, at that moment, if she chooses to give in to him without allowing the situation to escalate to violence, it's going to be incredibly hard for her to prove that she was raped.

I'm not at all making a judgment about that decision. I'm simply pointing out the likely legal reality involved. If there's no evidence of physical coercion or struggle, and the person was someone she knew or willingly went off with at some point, the odds of getting a conviction are incredibly low. Which is why I take issue with the idea that women should just get over their sexual hangups in situations like that. Just bear it and move on, I guess. And why I also take issue with the whole "rape is rape" argument as well. In both cases, I think you end out increasing the number of instances of this form of rape. You'll end out with a lot more women focusing on what to do *after* something like that happens rather than focusing on the choices made that lead up to it.

That's not to say that such things are always avoidable, but it really does seem like young women are being taught to abrogate their responsibilities by assuming that the law will somehow protect them after the fact. I think that's a terrible approach and is more harmful than helpful.
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#194 Feb 04 2013 at 5:50 PM Rating: Good
Gbaji wrote:
I'm not at all making a judgment about that decision. I'm simply pointing out the likely legal reality involved. If there's no evidence of physical coercion or struggle, and the person was someone she knew or willingly went off with at some point, the odds of getting a conviction are incredibly low. Which is why I take issue with the idea that women should just get over their sexual hangups in situations like that. Just bear it and move on, I guess. And why I also take issue with the whole "rape is rape" argument as well. In both cases, I think you end out increasing the number of instances of this form of rape. You'll end out with a lot more women focusing on what to do *after* something like that happens rather than focusing on the choices made that lead up to it.


So if you go to prison, get over your own sexual hangups, bear it, & move on is it rape?
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#195 Feb 05 2013 at 9:00 AM Rating: Good
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Could be I'm not communicating clearly enough.
Understatement.
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#196 Feb 05 2013 at 9:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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So if you go to prison, get over your own sexual hangups, bear it, & move on is it rape?

It's a waste of my tax dollars is what it is. I'm sending you there to be raped, not to have sexy-time fun butt parties.
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#197 Feb 05 2013 at 9:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Put it on Pay-Per-View. Boom, instant revenue.
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#198 Feb 05 2013 at 9:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
assuming that the law will somehow protect them after the fact.


I thought that was why we had laws in the first place. Well when they're working to the very minimum at least. Smiley: rolleyes

Seems a little backwards. If I get beaten up and robbed at least the person will go jail? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, that makes me no more willing to go down a dark alley. Got to figure, the guy in the scenario is just asking for trouble too. Call me crazy but if you're going to bar/clubs/whatever getting drunk and going home with random people you're asking for trouble regardless of what kind of giblets you have in your pants.
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#199 Feb 05 2013 at 10:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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Clearly we need to hear from someone who has been both raped and murdered, to tell us which was worse.

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#200 Feb 05 2013 at 10:21 AM Rating: Good
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Simultaneously? And is the order important?
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#201 Feb 05 2013 at 10:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
Clearly we need to hear from someone who has been both raped and murdered, to tell us which was worse.

I don't wanna be the guy to break this news to Jesus.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
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