Teen Alleges Bullying from Principle for being an AllyFollow

If a shirt causes this kind of mess, then its a good case to implement school uniforms.

Meh, the school was likely going to end up getting sued by the ACLU anyway. They just decided to make it worse for themselves I guess.

Of course it's TN...

Ahh, yes, I did miss that, actually. This computer is crap so I try not to have more than one or two tabs open at a time.

In before Gbaji and Alma turn this into a 20 page thread about how high school kids who come out of the closet are just seeking attention with the intent to disrupt the education of all the normal perfectly decent god-fearing children who's innocence is being stolen by the openly flagrant behavior of a deviant few.

Edit: Guess not. Predictable idiot is predictable.

Edited, Oct 5th 2011 6:34pm by BrownDuck

Neither. My point was that one (or both) of you would end up posting to defend the teacher. Check and mate.

One of these things is not even remotely close to being like the other.

Sure, unless the message of inclusion is going to create a hostile environment.

It isn't the message, it's the reaction of everyone else to the message. The other kids were already hostile to the kid in the story over it. The principle overreacted, but I still don't agree the teen should be allowed to wear that shirt. He'll get his ass kicked, then it'll be a nightmare of hate crime allegations.

Letting a kid make themselves a victim sounds much worse to me.

Assuming you were responding to my earlier post, in both cases the speech is about inclusion of a group at school. I just think that you're walking on a slippery slope when you start limiting speech based not on the words actually spoken, but whether you don't like something the words refer to. And it's insanely hypocritical in this case. If we accept the premise that the GSA is being blocked because people don't like gays, and the kid was singled out because he wore a t-shirt advocating the creation of the GSA, how is that different than the case of a student wearing a t-shirt advocating the creation of the hypothetical KKK club? If you are ok with the second student being required to remove his shirt aren't you *also* doing it because you don't like the KKK and therefore don't want a student wearing a t-shirt advocating a KKK club?


I don't see a difference between those two in the context of speech. It's just interesting that it seems that some people have a hard time distinguishing between the speech and the acts/positions of the group(s) the speech is about. Even if the KKK can (should) be excluded from having a club on campus does not remove the right of a student to wear a t-shirt advocating such a club (assuming we accept that such a right exists in the first place). Certainly, the same right to advocate any club should exist equally regardless of what we think of the clubs themselves. Assuming similar language, either both should be protected speech, or neither should be.

Edited, Oct 5th 2011 5:58pm by gbaji

I can see the plus side for wearing school uniforms, but it's not something I'm willing to get behind. It's a cop out to blame clothes when we need to be teaching tolerance. Otherwise, you'll still have the same social issues outside school. I think it's a better idea to break kids from that habit early in life. School uniforms take away individuality as well.

How much tolerance is required though? Where do you draw the line? I assume you mean that tolerance should be for any message any student might have on a T-shirt? So a shirt saying "n*gg*ers must die!" should be tolerated? If you're not willing to argue that such a shirt should be allowed on a public school campus, then you have to acknowledge that it's not as simple as just saying we should teach kids tolerance.

It's more complicated than that.

Wearing a shirt to school to promote a club you want to establish at school is not the proper time or place...?

So, in this situation, what is the proper time and place?

A time and place that isn't going to potentially result in him being beaten to a pulp?

Rapists' rights?

Except that this kid and his sister are living in a hostile environment regardless of whether or not he wears the shirt. What he's trying to do is get his school to step up and make an effort to protect their rights, which they haven't attempted to do at all.

Forcing kids to avoid fighting for issues that matter just makes things worse for the party they are trying to protect.

No. And the student is free to wear said shirt on their own time when he's the only one responsible for the results. The second the school is responsible for the health of the student, they get to take some authority in terms of limiting said students actions. Obviously, I have no clue of the actual motivations of the principle of this school with regards to the proposed GSA. But that's somewhat irrelevant to the question of the wearing of said t-shirt at school IMO.

I think by far the more important thing to look into is whether there was some form of discrimination in play with regards to the proposed student group. The t-shirt issue really shouldn't be that big a deal.

You'd almost think this would be an incentive to provide a safe environment, huh?

Well, actually you'd think basic common sense and decency would be enough incentive to provide a safe environment but, again, we're dealing with a homophobic principle who gets his jollies by harassing kids here. So, with that in mind, "preventing getting sued" will have to do.

Edited, Oct 5th 2011 8:46pm by Jophiel

It just shocks me that anyone advocates that the kids creating a hostile environment should "win." I'm sure that a kid showing some courage in the face of ignorance and hostility would rally some to his cause. And if they don't, then at least he knows he stood up for himself and didn't allow kids to bully him into silence.

Assuming it ends at just bruises. Those who act from hate aren't known for being able to show restraint.

I was starting to wonder if you were losing your mind.

I had people pull the "it's for your own good" argument on me when I was in school. Looking back, if I had actually given up my causes, I would hate myself now.

Oppression is a really awful beast. Once you start catering to the oppressors under the guise of protecting the oppressed, you've only ensured who loses in the end. Stopping this kid from expressing his desire for a school that protects LGBTQ rights isn't helping anyone.

The kid's already losing. And if we force him into a closet (no pun intended ok, pun intended. I'm a bad person.) then he'll also lose respect for himself for not sticking up for what he believes in.