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Conclusive jug testingFollow

#252 May 02 2012 at 6:25 PM Rating: Decent
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im not sure what benchmark you are looking for. these tests would give you att, acc, str and possibly dmg rating for your pets. with these things, you could tell how strong each jugs dd-ness is, which i think is what we were getting at, possibly. were you looking to compare pets or predict damage output?

anyway, if you wanted to get vit/def values for vwnm's, i think you'd do best to look at sam again with shoha. its a fairly consistent ws also, att bonus, constant str, minimal hits, etc. can figure out vit from that. maybe def from other ws (drg with that new starsomething). id think the hardest would be accounting for all of the buffs. eva on a vw would be hitrate= 75+(acc-eva)/2 -2(monster lvl- player lvl) so if you knew monster lvl, hit rate, and the acc you have you could know the mobs evasion

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#253 May 04 2012 at 12:02 PM Rating: Decent
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i dont know why i didnt think of this before, but the greater colibri at the old merit camps have their stats shown on wiki.you can hit them around and not have to test for how much of a stat they have. if their values are too low, you can also go to the mamool camp. they have higher stats for agi, vit, eva, def. they even have stats for each individual lvl of the mob. you'd just need to lvl correct and the stats of the jugs should come out fairly well.
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#254 May 06 2012 at 9:39 AM Rating: Good
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figster wrote:
i dont know why i didnt think of this before, but the greater colibri at the old merit camps have their stats shown on wiki.you can hit them around and not have to test for how much of a stat they have. if their values are too low, you can also go to the mamool camp. they have higher stats for agi, vit, eva, def. they even have stats for each individual lvl of the mob. you'd just need to lvl correct and the stats of the jugs should come out fairly well.


I have done this before. but there is still not quite enough info I believe. Its in this thread...
however, please wizard me w/ math skills. This morning I parsed level 99 Gorefang Hobs vs specifically level 82 Greater Colibri.

Level 82: Defense 327, Evasion 339, VIT 67, AGI 67


100% Melee

non-crit:
Hit: 410
miss: 20
95% Hit Rate & Melee Accuracy, so obviously capped
Lowest melee damage: 309
Highet melee damage: 412
Average: 361.95

Crit-HIt Damage:
65 Crit hits
15.85% Crit hit rate
Lowest Crit damage: 460
Highest Crit Damage: 520
Average: 498.58


This parse was taken without any gear which would affect pets.

Pet pDif caps at 4.2 for max hit and 4.0 for min hit as has been previously shown.
The capped Base Damage + fSTR term for level 99 Gorefang Hobs is 130.

However, fSTR and pDif are not capped in this situation.
Hobs has level 99 Warrior traits:
Fencer V (+55 TP, +9% Crit. Rate)
Attack Bonus II ( +22)
Crit Attack Bonus II (8%)

(also parse shows 12.5% DA rate. which matches hypothesized values for DA2 trait for war at level 96. Safe bet that our war pets will have this as well)

What should the STR and Attack values be for level 99 Gorefang Hobs?


Edited, May 6th 2012 11:48am by Xilk
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#255 May 06 2012 at 1:53 PM Rating: Decent
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ok, the damage for hobs is 109. i did Damage rating=weapon dmg + weapon rank+8, if this is true for pets also. so 130=x+x/9+8 and give 109.8 which is floored to 109.
based on your 15.85%crit rat minus 9 for fencer, gives 6.85%. that gives a dDEX of 38 to 41 so hobs DEX is 105 to 108, if its the same for pets. this is all using equations on wiki based off of players. you could probably use that equation to find the base damage for all the jugs. i did not know that the pet pdif is different than the player pdif. you might need to fight something that you can cap pdif on but not fstr.

how do you know fstr isnt capped on colibri? if fstr works like mobs, then its pet str- mob vit. if its like players, then its ((pet str- mob vit)+4)/2. im gonna guess its like players, otherwise the single biggest buff a bst can have is absorb-vit. it might add lots of fstr. if its capped, then the pet has over 105str. if its like monster, over 88str is capped. based on the new dex number, im thinking stats are all close to that. cast absorb str on the bird. it will reflect to pet and fstr will drop. if it drops very little, then its probably the mob way as the pet most likely has stats in the 100's. fstr would still be pretty close to cap. if it drops significantly, then fstr is like players as it would drop fstr by half probably. i agree that pdif probably isnt capped, try a dia 2 to see if dmg changes.

i didnt know that pdif caps higher for pets. im not sure if they still use the same formula but cap higher or if they use a different formula.

EDIT: this is what i was thinking. calculating pdif would be DMG=(D+fstr)*(pdif+1) for a crit. solve for pdif=(DMG-(D+fstr))/(D+fstr) then put that pdif into DMG=(D+fstr)*found pdif makes it within 10% of the the average found. i feel like im missing some sort of lvl correction. also, using a beast roll would change att significantly, maybe make it so you an make a better trend graph. do a roll, parse mobs till that roll wears, then save avg/max/min for that roll number. repeat and sum the values for each roll number done. you might be able to generate a graph of max/min and check for a trend between those values.

Edited, May 6th 2012 6:12pm by figster
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#256 May 06 2012 at 8:03 PM Rating: Good
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figster wrote:
ok, the damage for hobs is 109. i did Damage rating=weapon dmg + weapon rank+8, if this is true for pets also. so 130=x+x/9+8 and give 109.8 which is floored to 109.
based on your 15.85%crit rat minus 9 for fencer, gives 6.85%. that gives a dDEX of 38 to 41 so hobs DEX is 105 to 108, if its the same for pets. this is all using equations on wiki based off of players. you could probably use that equation to find the base damage for all the jugs. i did not know that the pet pdif is different than the player pdif. you might need to fight something that you can cap pdif on but not fstr.

how do you know fstr isnt capped on colibri? if fstr works like mobs, then its pet str- mob vit. if its like players, then its ((pet str- mob vit)+4)/2. im gonna guess its like players, otherwise the single biggest buff a bst can have is absorb-vit. it might add lots of fstr. if its capped, then the pet has over 105str. if its like monster, over 88str is capped. based on the new dex number, im thinking stats are all close to that. cast absorb str on the bird. it will reflect to pet and fstr will drop. if it drops very little, then its probably the mob way as the pet most likely has stats in the 100's. fstr would still be pretty close to cap. if it drops significantly, then fstr is like players as it would drop fstr by half probably. i agree that pdif probably isnt capped, try a dia 2 to see if dmg changes.

i didnt know that pdif caps higher for pets. im not sure if they still use the same formula but cap higher or if they use a different formula.

EDIT: this is what i was thinking. calculating pdif would be DMG=(D+fstr)*(pdif+1) for a crit. solve for pdif=(DMG-(D+fstr))/(D+fstr) then put that pdif into DMG=(D+fstr)*found pdif makes it within 10% of the the average found. i feel like im missing some sort of lvl correction. also, using a beast roll would change att significantly, maybe make it so you an make a better trend graph. do a roll, parse mobs till that roll wears, then save avg/max/min for that roll number. repeat and sum the values for each roll number done. you might be able to generate a graph of max/min and check for a trend between those values.

Edited, May 6th 2012 6:12pm by figster



HA!
This is where I've been hung up. I didn't see to make this equation:

Damage rating=weapon dmg + weapon rank+8

Also, yeah, you're right, I couldn't tell if fSTR was capped or not for Colibri... I was getting impatient finishing the post by that time...

Can you explain what you mean by "if fSTR works like a monster" it's capped at 88? The only formula I'm aware of is the player one. However, I would guess it most likely works like monster and not player for bst pets. Bst pets are very much monsters.. (remember we can charm mobs... their stats or way of doing damage does not change after we charm them, jugs are made the same way.)

(FYI, I saw another vit testing method on bg mathy sticky thread. attacking a mob w/ 1 damage weapon and lowering your str until you crit for 0...)

I'm quite confident about pet's higher pdif cap from 2 sources, one my own testing of each pet under capped situations (level 0 mobs) and Kegsay's testing of level 75 avatars which I linked to in the opening post of this thread. He was much more methodical than I. The caps are at 4.2 for high and 4.0 for low. It shows exactly right for the 1.05 randomizer to pdif also. Those are already identified.

Solving for pdif using 130 for baseD + fStr yields the following. (I've done this alot). damage/130 = pdif


melee min pdif: 2.38
melee max pdif: 3.17
melee Average pdif: 2.78

Crit pdif min/max (adjusted for crit attack bonus)
crit min pdif: 3.28
crit max pdif: 3.71
crit ave. pdif; 3.55

but these are not withing 10%. This is where I've been hung up for attack values. solving attack from this 'pDif' as if its a straight ratio has been unsuccessful. The player level correction would not apply here anyway. the target is 17 levels lower than the attacker.

Also, its not pdif+1 for pet crit hits. A pet melee hit can hit just as high as a crit hit for pets except for the crit attack bonus. If you look at my earlier testing, this shows alot. Also, any pets that don't have crit attack bonus, when capping pdif on level 0 mobs, the crit min and max match the melee min and max. This is easily seen using CourrierCarrie vs level 0 mobs. or Merle or Mac. There is a bonus to pdif, but its not 1.0 for pets.. Its not a constant. You have to adjust the min and max crit hits to account for crit attack bonus anyway. In this colibri test, the adjust min crit hit would be 426 damage, and the adjusted max would be 482. this puts the difference between average melee pdif and average crit pdif for this test a 0.77. 0.90 for the min crit vs min melee, and 0.54 for the max crit vs max melee. I think the pdif bonus from a crit can vary between 0 and 1.0 for pets.

Looks like I'll have to finish leveling /drk to try the absorb vit part... I've tried to think of ways to increase pet's str but going into abyssea just means I can't keep a constant mob level, or I need to figure alot of NM stats to redo alot of testing in an environment where I can adjust pet stats more. Lowering mob VIT is actually a great idea which can be applied outside abyssea. HA! if that's true, then the choke effect from onslaught has another meaning now...

Thank you, this is more progress than I've seen in a long time about this problem.


Edited, May 6th 2012 10:48pm by Xilk
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#257 May 07 2012 at 1:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Can you explain what you mean by "if fSTR works like a monster" it's capped at 88? The only formula I'm aware of is the player one.


i was reading some posts on BG wiki about damage taken. the damage taken by a player is monster damage rating+ fstr*pdif avg. the fstr that they were saying is different than the player fstr. player fstr is the ((str-vit)+4)/4 while they were saying monster fstr is str-vit. so for your 130dmg cap would be 109dmg rating +21fstr. the way of the monster would be 21=x-67 or 88str needed to cap. player way would be 21=((str-67)+4)/4 so str would need to be 147. i think i did a bad math mistake earlier on. so fstr is probably definitely not capped or definitely calculated like monsters are. now that i see that the required capped str is much higher, a absorb vit would be enough to check. if dmg increases then prob not capped, and visa versa. i forgot about choke. absorb and choke would definitely create a difference in fstr and/or cap fstr for testing, although putting them both on each mob might make for a long test.

as far as the pdif goes, you are going to have to find a way to change the attack on the pet or def on a mob. by creating changes, it might be possible to create a graph of pdif vs def with defense in the x-axis. by increasing pet attack, i believe it would count similarly as the same percentage of defense down. so 10% att+ is like 10%def down. what do you think? with def being known, changing it would yield exact amounts. graphing it might give areas where values fall into groups like the player pdif graphs. the different regions could be separated and then trend lines put on them to give you an equation for that line. you then might have the pdif equations for pets and the rest of testing would be more so about putting numbers into the equations then actual testing. or do ballista and fight a player that can change their def values without changing vit values, you would get the same range of values.

EDIT: id almost just omit crit values. if they are changing then id leave them alone. maybe the crit pdif may be a percentage increase to the gap between the pdif and the cap. id not worry about crits right now. that seems like its adding too many unknowns to the to the testing.

Edited, May 7th 2012 10:45am by figster
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#258 May 21 2012 at 11:36 PM Rating: Decent
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	        job	D+str   Dmg	tp/hit	delay	dps 
Presto Julio	WAR	122	103	5.9	217	28.32 
Discreet Louise	WAR	131	111	7.4	280	23.75 
BugEyedBroncha	WAR	130	110	5.7	209	31.51 
Flowerpot Merle	MNK	73	59	4.8	172	40.89 
Gorefang Hobs	WAR	130	110	6.4	238	27.66 
Gooey Gerard	WAR	129	109	6.4	238	27.44 
Crude Raphie	PLD	133	113	6.4	238	28.34 
FaithfulFalcorr	THF	126	106	6.2	230	27.72 
Dipper Yuly	THF	124	104	6.2	230	27.25 
Lucky Lulush	WAR	128	108	6.2	230	28.19 
Dapper Mac	MNK	75	60	6.2	172	41.86 
Slippery Silas	???	121	102	5.4	197	31.04 
Fatso Fargann	WAR	130	110	6.9	259	25.44 
BloodclawShasra	WAR	129	109	6.4	238	27.44


Dmg rating of pets, delay, and dps in an fstr capped situation. merle's and mac's dps are multiplied by 2 due to two fists and lead to higher numbers. also, im not sure on the mnk delays. the tp is calculated in a couple different ways depending on the delay of the weapon. if its below 180, it calculated differently. the tp/hi gives 172 if calculated like its above 180 but obviously its not. if you calculate it like its below 180, i think i got around 150 which is really really fast. really fast.so thats kind of odd.

also, i really dislike inputting charts onto this site

EDIT: fixed mac for stp

Edited, May 22nd 2012 12:04pm by figster
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#259 May 22 2012 at 6:26 AM Rating: Good
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Thank you for updating the table. Yes, it does suck trying to post a table in these forums. 1/2 the reason I'm too lazy to update it most the time.

I have to point out a few things. The Julio numbers are not level 99. That was my mistake when I took the sample. I need to redo any of the pets which don't cap naturally at level 99. Julio is the only one on that list. Mac actually has the same delay as Merle. However, like all the level 99 pets, Mac is a little different from normal job rules. Mac has Store TP V like a level 90+ samurai.That's why he has a higher tp/hit.

Also, these estimates are too low. When I tested falcorr and Hobs vs level 99~103 boulder eaters, where they did not have capped fstr or pdif, they were outperforming this dps. I had ~35 dps for falcorr and ~55 dps for hobs. This was without any pet+ gear equipped.

Then again this estimate would not consider things such as crit rate and DA/TA



Edited, May 22nd 2012 8:33am by Xilk
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#260 May 22 2012 at 1:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

Also, these estimates are too low. When I tested falcorr and Hobs vs level 99~103 boulder eaters, where they did not have capped fstr or pdif, they were outperforming this dps. I had ~35 dps for falcorr and ~55 dps for hobs. This was without any pet+ gear equipped.


ya, these dont figure in additional attacks or tp moves or anything like that. just straight up dmg of weapon over 1 second. This is similar to the fact that 75 relic weapons had a dps around 13~ish but lvl75 dd's werent doing 13dps. the dps is more of a statement to the power of the weapon, which seems to follow kind of what i was expecting. mnk is insane dps. the job always has been. um, reasons for higher dps in practice would be factoring in attack values? obviously you arent hitting for 130dmg each time. i think you forgot the pdif. if you multiplied these values by the capped pdif, 4? then everything would be higher and actually dps would be like 120-160. then when you fight mobs where your pdif isnt capped, it would be lower. factor in additional attacks, it rises. that would give you the dps you are probably getting.
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#261 May 30 2012 at 5:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Can someone help me to make sense of some of these numbers? I've got things nailed down pretty tightly up until a certain point...

I was inspired by some LS mates to check out Charm mechanics, specifically duration. There are reports of Charm duration increasing with base level - specifically, there are testimonials of such on the wiki page which have been cited in a couple different threads. The JA is not the subject of much discussion lately, but this is purely for understanding it better; here are some findings vs. Even Match mobs.

It follows a nice pattern, which is easily discernible.
BST/WHM Charming Even Match monsters:
Level 1  - 2:40 (CHR 9, Ding Bats) 
Level 4  - 2:44 (CHR 11, Vulture) 
Level 5  - 2:45 (CHR 12, Rock Lizard) 
Level 10 - 2:50 (CHR 16, Killer Bee) 
Level 15 - 2:55 (CHR 20, Wild Dhalmel) 
Level 20 - 3:00 (CHR 24, Damselfly) 
Level 25 - 3:05 (CHR 29, Moon Bat) 
Level 30 - 3:10 (CHR 33, Abyss Worm) 
| 
Level 99 - 4:20 (CHR 88, Kuftal Delver)

So, for Even Match monsters: Charm duration = 160 Seconds + X Seconds, where X = your current level. I haven't tested Decent Challenge or Tough monsters yet, but I assume the formula will be Base Duration (> 160 for DC or < 160 for T) plus X Seconds, and then potentially multiplied by a DC ratio or T ratio. But thankfully, the Even Match progression works very cleanly.

I stuck with my Even Match Kuftal Delver a little longer to test out the Charm+ gear's effectiveness, and got the following info...

Level 99BST/WHM Charming Even Match Kuftal Delver:
Level 99 - 4:20 (CHR 88) 
Level 99 - 5:25 (CHR 88, Charm+5) 
Level 99 - 6:43 (CHR 88+7, Charm+10) 
Level 99 - 8:40 (CHR 88, Charm+20)

Whoever figured out that Charm+1 = +5% duration was a smart cookie. Based on that information, these times make sense.
i.e. Charm+5 added (260 * (0.05*5)) = 65 extra seconds to the Charm duration.

But wait... Something's not right in the Charm+10 example - there's a whole extra 13 seconds that weren't otherwise accountable! I had predicted a 6:30 duration, and the only other thing that wasn't consistent is that I ended up with +7 CHR because of the Monster Helm+2. But... I've never heard of CHR affecting Charm duration before. o _o And yet...
Level 99 - 4:20 (CHR 88, Kuftal Delver) 
Level 99 - 4:33 (CHR 88+10, Kuftal Delver) 
Level 99 - 4:46 (CHR 88+20, Kuftal Delver) 
Level 99 - 5:15 (CHR 88+45, Kuftal Delver)

Based on this, it seems like any CHR+ that you have adds a certain amount of Charm duration, though I haven't figured out the formula specifically. Does it raise in tiers? 5% of 260 seconds is 13 seconds, and I have a couple of examples where an extra 13 or 26 seconds appears, so could CHR+X give a Charm+1 effect?

Edit: I grabbed some Charm gear from Storage and pulled some items from the Porter Moogle to test some more things... Here's the Charm+10 test again without the CHR+7 interfering:
Level 99 - 6:30 (CHR 88, Charm+10 [Beast Jackcoat, Monster Gloves+2]) 
Level 99 - 6:43 (CHR 88+7, Charm+10 [Monster Helm+2, Monster Gaiters+2])

Gonna try some more CHR+ values to see what happens...

Apollo's Staff Testing:
4:22 (CHR 88+2 [Selemnus Belt]) 
4:22 (CHR 88+2 [Apollo's Staff])

Moar CHR tests:
4:20 (CHR 88) 
4:22 (CHR 88+2) 
4:30 (CHR 88+8) 
4:33 (CHR 88+10) 
4:40 (CHR 88+16) 
4:46 (CHR 88+20) 
4:53 (CHR 88+26) 
5:15 (CHR 88+45) 
5:58 (CHR 88+79) 
7:44 (CHR 88+89, Charm+5)


Edited, May 30th 2012 9:43pm by Bookmarku
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#262 May 31 2012 at 8:18 AM Rating: Good
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Well, the first thing you need to do is dissociate CHR and level, and I think when you go to do that you may discover that level doesn't actually matter

Formulas:
Charm Base Duration = Floor(1.25*CHR)+150
Charm Total Duration = Floor( Charm Base Duration * (1 + 0.05*CharmGear) )

This works within a second for all of your results.

Unanswered questions:
1) Is there a cap on Charm+ Gear? How about general duration?
2) What are the penalties/bonuses associated with dLVL?
3) Some monsters resist Charm. Do they also have a natural charm duration penalty?
4) Is it possible for a monster to half-resist Charm? Aka are there resist states? (I think not)

Edited, May 31st 2012 10:22am by Byrthnoth
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#263 May 31 2012 at 1:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Nice! Thank you~ :D

Gonna do another round of testing today on the Test Server to check out those questions!
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#264 May 31 2012 at 2:32 PM Rating: Good
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ATM, I only have some hypothesis w/ experience to back them up.

1) I believe the normal cap for charm duration is 30 min. I think this is the duration for "too weak" mob. this can be tested by confirming that charming a 'too weak' mob (level 0) only lasts 30 min. Next, charm it with some charm+ gear equipped. There may not be a hard cap, but I'm pretty sure 30 min is the soft cap.

2) Great Question! ... I don't have any insights. Shouldn't be too difficult to get some data samples though.

3) This should be easy to gather samples for duration. We basically need to test charm duration on EM of different mob families to note any differences in duration.

4) I don't really want to test this... I don't think there are partial resists on charm which affect duration. The only way to test this anyway would be to re-charm the same mob 100 times hoping the duration will change by 1/2, 1/4, 7/8 or some fraction like that... when I don't believe it will happen anyway.


Talking about charm duration of course brings up the question of about charm resistance/success rates.

There are a few things we do know about charm rate:
There is certainly some dCHR term which compares charm success.
There is a cap for success rate which is less than 100% (I have missed a charm on a level 0 mob at level 99).
The floor probably hits 0% due to dLVL at some point.
dLVL is a term in charm success rate.

Questions about Charm rate:
What is the formula for Charm rate?
Does Beastmaster CHR compare to mob CHR for 'dCHR' term (could be a different mob stat, but most likely CHR)
Is there a charm resist trait (separate multiplicative term) not directly related to dCHR

Answering these should tell if there are times when you don't need more CHR and charm+ would be more beneficial. (if you cap your charm rate for a certain type/level of mob.)
It will also give you a better idea of how long you have to take action before you should seek a new pet in any given setting.



I also need to totally reinstall my test client, so I won't be doing tests which require test server access anytime soon.

Edited, May 31st 2012 5:08pm by Xilk
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#265 May 31 2012 at 2:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Here's some initial dLVL testing: Charming Carmine Eruca in Wajaom Woodlands (always a level 70 monster).
Level 62 - 0:10 (CHR 66+11, Incredibly Tough+8) 10 Seconds 
Level 63 - 0:10 (CHR 67+11, Very Tough+7) 10 Seconds 
Level 64 - 0:10 (CHR 67+11, Very Tough+6) 10 Seconds 
Level 65 - 0:20 (CHR 69+11, Very Tough+5) 20 Seconds 
Level 66 - 0:30 (CHR 69+11, Very Tough+4) 30 Seconds 
Level 67 - 0:40 (CHR 70+9, Tough+3) 40 Seconds 
Level 68 - 1:23 (CHR 71+9, Tough+2) 83 Seconds 
Level 69 - 2:46 (CHR 71+9, Tough+1) 166 Seconds 
Level 70 - 4:10 (CHR 73+7, Even Match+0) 250 Seconds 
Level 71 - 5:50 (CHR 73+7, Decent Challenge-1) 350 Seconds 
Level 72 - 7:30 (CHR 74+6, Decent Challenge-2) 450 Seconds 
Level 73 - 9:10 (CHR 75+5, Decent Challenge-3) 550 Seconds 
Level 74 - 10:50 (CHR 75+5, Decent Challenge-4) 650 Seconds 
Level 75 - 12:30 (CHR 77+3, Decent Challenge-5) 750 Seconds 
Level 76 - 14:10 (CHR 77+3, Decent Challenge-6) 850 Seconds 
Level 77 - 16:40 (CHR 78+2, Decent Challenge-7) 1000 Seconds 
Level 78 - 20:50 (CHR 80, Easy Prey-8) 1250 Seconds 
Level 79 - 25:08 (CHR 81, Easy Prey-9) 1508 Seconds 
Level 80 - 25:23 (CHR 83, Easy Prey-10) 1523 Seconds 
Level 81 - 25:30 (CHR 84, Easy Prey-11) 1530 Seconds


Edited, Jun 1st 2012 10:58am by Bookmarku
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#266 May 31 2012 at 3:08 PM Rating: Good
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So I am seeing:
T+2 : 1/3
T+1 : 2/3
EM : Full
DC-1 : 7/5
DC-2 : 9/5

T+3 would be interesting, because the decay pattern obviously doesn't continue and go to 0/3 (remember subligar hunting!).
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#267 May 31 2012 at 3:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Bookmarku wrote:
Here's some initial dLVL testing: Charming Carmine Eruca in Wajaom Woodlands (always a level 70 monster).
Level 68 - 1:23 (CHR 71+9, Tough+2) 83 Seconds 
Level 69 - 2:46 (CHR 71+9, Tough+1) 166 Seconds 
Level 70 - 4:10 (CHR 73+7, Even Match+0) 250 Seconds 
Level 71 - 5:50 (CHR 73+7, Decent Challenge-1) 350 Seconds 
Level 72 - 7:30 (CHR 74+6, Decent Challenge-2) 450 Seconds


So great when you can modify your level instead of checking mob level all the time!!

Don't gimp on the IT charm attempts ^.^ (much harder to collect those, hope you keep RR up!)

(also, we know w/ familiar and monster trousers +2 you can keep charmed pet 40 min... I really dont' think 30 min is hard cap, but I do think it is soft cap)

Edited, May 31st 2012 5:21pm by Xilk
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#268 May 31 2012 at 3:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Xilk wrote:
So great when you can modify your level instead of checking mob level all the time!!

Don't gimp on the IT charm attempts ^.^ (much harder to collect those, hope you keep RR up!)


Ohgawd. T_T

And yeah, using Carmine Eruca makes this super easy. I don't have enough gear selection to always have 80 CHR for the tests, but I think it'll be close enough that we'll get good numbers to use. :)
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#269 May 31 2012 at 3:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Bookmarku wrote:
Xilk wrote:
So great when you can modify your level instead of checking mob level all the time!!

Don't gimp on the IT charm attempts ^.^ (much harder to collect those, hope you keep RR up!)


Ohgawd. T_T

And yeah, using Carmine Eruca makes this super easy. I don't have enough gear selection to always have 80 CHR for the tests, but I think it'll be close enough that we'll get good numbers to use. :)


Byrth made a great point, the decay in duration will not keep the same 1/3 pattern.. and if you work it up to IT's it will probably show a pattern which WILL show where the duration becomes 0. That will be the cap for how high level a mob can be charmed at all. I'm pretty sure I DO have the chr gear for those levels to keep it at 80.... think I still have my level 65 CHR mantle from that pot in ro'maeve... I know I still have the 2 chr earrings (both of them)

I'm just jealous cuz I'm at work right now and can't login to test myself. its more fun testing when you have someone to talk to who is actually interested.

it might not be worth it to try for VT and IT durations with such low CHR. Its probably better to just stack as much CHR as you can for the VT and IT's then redo the EM test for comparison. (though you can probably just calculate it now)

Edited, May 31st 2012 5:44pm by Xilk
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#270 May 31 2012 at 4:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Xilk wrote:
I'm just jealous cuz I'm at work right now and can't login to test myself. its more fun testing when you have someone to talk to who is actually interested.


Xilk, prz quit your job and test BST mechanics with meeeee. ; ; <3

It'd be a heck of a lot faster to divvy up the level spread too, since running to a corner of Wajaom every time is gettin' old, haha.

Edit: Updated the Charm duration dLVL post.

Also, checked on Slimes but I haven't seen any "resists" or natural Charm Duration Reduction. I only got 3 samples before getting bored... They were all identical.

Level 77 - 4:10 (CHR 78+2, Even Match, Brei)

Edited, May 31st 2012 9:38pm by Bookmarku
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#271 May 31 2012 at 7:58 PM Rating: Good
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So there are three dLvl things left, I think:
1) Things above T+2 look very regular. This is either different scaling (1/10, 1/15, 1/20) or just static values (40, 30, 20). - I assume you would need to change your CHR substantially to see a change in this.
2) What is the minimum charm time?
3) It is unclear whether negative dLvl = Charm +8 per level, a separate Duration +40%, or a flat Duration +100 seconds. - You would need to stack Charm+ gear (for the first two cases) or change your CHR (for the last) to answer this.

Edited, May 31st 2012 9:59pm by Byrthnoth
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#272 May 31 2012 at 8:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, when I reached Decent Challenge-7, it jumped by 150 seconds. o _o Might have finally broken into a new ratio tier? It's on the cusp of turning Easy Prey, I believe, once I GM Moogle myself to 78. I can check those other potential explanations though, while I'm at it.

EDIT:

Altering CHR for Decent Challenge mobs:
Level 71 - 5:50 (CHR 73+7, Decent Challenge-1) 350 Seconds 
Level 71 - 6:00 (CHR 73+13, Decent Challenge-1) 360 Seconds

Altering Charm+ for Decent Challenge mobs:
Level 71 - 5:50 (CHR 73+7, Decent Challenge-1) 350 Seconds 
Level 71 - 7:00 (CHR 73+7, Charm+4, Decent Challenge-1) 420 Seconds

Looking at the updated dLVL info, it appears that the Charm duration bonus from level difference caps at EP-9 and from that point onward only CHR, and presumably Charm+, affect the duration amount. I will check on Charm+ influence at EP-9 or greater, (but good lord, it is so boring). :D

Aaaand maybe I will charm like... a level 1 Rabbit to see if it lasts for 25 minutes with 80 CHR. That'd be pretty solid.

Edited, Jun 1st 2012 10:34am by Bookmarku
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#273 Jun 01 2012 at 8:27 AM Rating: Good
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Well, I'm totally swamped with work at the moment, but I think this justifies splitting off another page on the wiki similar to the Reward testing for Charm Duration. Assuming 1 second resolution, I see this:

+5 : 8-8.4% (1/12 proposed)
+4 : 12-12.4% (1/8 proposed)
+3 : 16.1-16.5% (1/6 proposed, but high if this one is accurate)
+2 : 33.2-33.6% (1/3 proposed)
+1 : 66.4-66.8% (2/3 proposed)
0 : 100%
-1 : 140%
-2 : 180%
-3 : 220%
-4 : 260%
-5 : 300%
-6 : 340%
-7 : 400%
-8 : 500%
-9 : 600%
-10 : 600%
-11 : 600%

There are patterns, but the range is small enough that it makes more sense to represent this as a look-up table rather than a series of piecewise linear equations (like dDEX).


Also, the CHR test that you did is problematic. It says 400 seconds, but 6:00. It should be 360 seconds.

Edited, Jun 1st 2012 10:32am by Byrthnoth
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#274 Jun 01 2012 at 8:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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350+10 is 400 right? :D
Good catch, brain was in... "Clock mode"? Ok, it's a bad excuse... ; ;

Charm duration was 10 seconds at VT+6.

Edit: There, bottomed out at 10 second minimum duration.
Also, I managed to hold the IT+8 Carmine Eruca for 14~15 seconds with 66+8 CHR and Charm+9, haha. And then he brutally murdered me.

Edit2: Level -1 Wild Rabbit was charmed for exactly 25 minutes with 73+7 CHR. Gonna throw on some Charm+ and see if I hit a cap.

Edit3: Level -1 Wild Rabbit - 36:25 (CHR 73+8, Charm+9) 2185 Seconds
So, haven't hit a cap yet. Gonna try to pump up the CHR and Charm+ to the maximum next...
If I calc'd it correctly, with 100+62 CHR, and Charm+29, this next Wild Rabbit should last... 5172 seconds, or 1hr 26min 12s. o_o Um... See you guys later, lawl.

Edit4: Level -1 Wild Rabbit - 1h:26m:22s (CHR 100+62, Charm+29) 5182 Seconds

So I haven't hit a duration cap, CHR+ cap, Charm+ cap... It might simply cap at 2 hours, if any such cap exists. Let's see, if I was gonna take this one step farther, I'd need De Saintre's Axe, Atlaua's Ring, CHR potion, CHR Food, probably a bunch of other buffs I'm forgetting...

Edited, Jun 1st 2012 1:49pm by Bookmarku
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#275 Jun 01 2012 at 5:06 PM Rating: Good
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You've definitely taken it far enough for me to be satisfied! lol

Two last things to figure out:
1) Do low dLevel values affect base duration? :: So is dLevel = -5 with Charm+0 always 20 seconds, or is it about 8% of your EM duration?
2) Is /BST the same as BST in terms of Charm duration? :: If not, this would be the final nail in the /BST vs. BST argument coffin.

I made this page today: http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Charm_Duration
And edited the Charm page: http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Charm

Purely untested fantasy and inference, but I suspect that Charm is calculated like a single-state light-based magic spell ( http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Resist ) that depends on Light Magic Accuracy, CHR(/2), and is likely affected by other forms of Magic Accuracy as well. This would imply:
1) Maximum "Hit Rate" of 95%
2) No resist states (no half duration charms observed either)
3) Light Staff would be +5% Hit Rate if you have a good (>50%) Charm rate or +10% Hit Rate if you have a bad (<50%) Charm rate.
4) Apollo's Staff would be +7-8% Hit Rate if you have a good (>50%) Charm rate or +15% Hit Rate if you have a bad (<50%) Charm rate.
5) Your odds of charming would drop by 2-4% per level increase of the monster depending on your Charm hit rate beforehand. (This seems low to me).

I mean, I kind of sense the silliness of thoroughly testing Charm at this point, but it's still neat to think about. =p
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#276 Jun 01 2012 at 5:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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That is awesome - thanks for the insight and direction on testing. :D

And yeah, it's kind of hilarious that this information is only being hammered out now, years after the decline of Charm usage. I'll check out those remaining questions asap - I've always been curious about the /BST mechanics... With the Test Server it would be very easy to test how much the level of your BST job affects your /BST charming ability. So like, if I set BST main job as 69 and charm a Carmine Eruca as 70BRD/35BST with 80 CHR, would I get a duration of 166 seconds, even though it technically cons as Even Match to my BRD... Should be interesting to see! :3

Edit: I love the Charm Duration page! I wish that it had existed, um... 4 years ago when I was first leveling BST, haha.

Edit2: Level 70 BRD/BST (w/ level 69 BST main) - 4:10 (CHR 73+7, Even Match)
No change... I'll set BST main job to level 1, and maybe also level 35, to see if there's any differences.

Edit3: OK! It's very evident to me now... Charm success rate is related to your BST job. I'm not super keen on doing success rate testing, but with 70BRD/1BST, the charm rate is horrific. And when I finally did:

Level 70 BRD/BST (w/ level 1 BST main) - 4:03 (CHR 64+11, Even Match)

Charm Duration is unaffected by the level of your BST subjob.

---

dLVL Testing at low values (i,e, VT~IT mobs):

I wanted to have access to a load of CHR gear, so I did the following test as a 99BST/SCH in the Boyahda Tree.
Mourning Crawler - 0:34 (CHR 88+73, Charm+4, Very Tough+?) 34 Seconds

and working with the Charm Duration formulae and %Change chart:
Base Duration = (1.25 * 161 CHR) + 150 = 351 
Charm Duration = 351 * (1 + [0.05 * 4]) = 421 seconds

I don't know for certain what level the Crawler is, but through some guesswork and reasonable assumption, dLVL should be -5 in this instance.
421 * 0.08 = 33.68 seconds

The time is within 1 second of the experimental value, so I'd say it was probably a level 104 Mourning Crawler.

And THEN, shortly after, I found an Incredibly Tough Crawler to charm - this time without any Charm+ gear equipped.
Mourning Crawler - 0:14 (CHR 88+73, Incredibly Tough+?) 14 Seconds 
Base Duration = (1.25 * 161 CHR) + 150 = 351 
dLVL = -6 conversion: 351 * 0.04 = 14.04 seconds

So this Mourning Crawler is at least level 105 (it probably is exactly level 105). This shows pretty clearly that the Charm Duration values at low dLVL are actually a percent of the Base Charm Duration, as predicted. :D

Edited, Jun 3rd 2012 6:09pm by Bookmarku
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#277 Jun 01 2012 at 10:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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Byrthnoth wrote:
You've definitely taken it far enough for me to be satisfied! lol

Two last things to figure out:
1) Do low dLevel values affect base duration? :: So is dLevel = -5 with Charm+0 always 20 seconds, or is it about 8% of your EM duration?
2) Is /BST the same as BST in terms of Charm duration? :: If not, this would be the final nail in the /BST vs. BST argument coffin.

I made this page today: http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Charm_Duration
And edited the Charm page: http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Charm

Purely untested fantasy and inference, but I suspect that Charm is calculated like a single-state light-based magic spell ( http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Resist ) that depends on Light Magic Accuracy, CHR(/2), and is likely affected by other forms of Magic Accuracy as well. This would imply:
1) Maximum "Hit Rate" of 95%
2) No resist states (no half duration charms observed either)
3) Light Staff would be +5% Hit Rate if you have a good (>50%) Charm rate or +10% Hit Rate if you have a bad (<50%) Charm rate.
4) Apollo's Staff would be +7-8% Hit Rate if you have a good (>50%) Charm rate or +15% Hit Rate if you have a bad (<50%) Charm rate.
5) Your odds of charming would drop by 2-4% per level increase of the monster depending on your Charm hit rate beforehand. (This seems low to me).

I mean, I kind of sense the silliness of thoroughly testing Charm at this point, but it's still neat to think about. =p



Consider me silly then, cuz thats exactly what I started doing tonight!!

I'm not on test server yet (reinstalling it now and will update while I sleep), so I chose to go to the kuftel delver's and Machairoduses (smilodon) in Kuftel Tunnel.
The GoV page puts then at levels 99~103.
the worms check EM or T. The Smilodon check T or VT.

I first spammed them w/ gauge command for various levels of chr.
my base CHR as a level 99 bst/sch was 88. Unfortunately I don't have any -CHR Gear!
There are 5 possible replies for gauge:

Should be able to charm
Might be able to charm
difficulte to charm
very difficult to charm
impossible to charm

Unfortunately, the worms were "Should be able to charm" even at 88 chr. I couldnt' get any variation on them.
I was able to charm an EM worm 94/100 times with 95 chr (I accidentally had ring and earring on..)
That seems to fall in line w/ Byrth's #1 hypothesis above.
I was a bit surprised. I did not need any chr+ gear at all to have at least close to capped charm rate on an EM mob. This really implies there would be alot of situations where charm+ gear will be more useful than chr+ gear. that is certainly true of charming worms at level 99.

I haven't compared to the T worm yet.. not sure if I want to since its such a high rate. I might still be capped.
I haven't done statistics and I'm too lazy to look it up so... how large of a sample do you think is big enough? charm is quick recast, but 100x is pretty long.

Guaging the tigers is more interesting.

Tough Tiger (level 102 I think, there are only 2 levels of tigers, 500 xp and 600 xp)
88 CHR Difficult to charm
92 CHR Might be able to charm
116 CHR Should be able to charm
(and I can go up over 160 CHR...)

VT Tiger level 103
88 CHR Difficult to charm
96 CHR Might be able to charm
121 CHR Should be able to charm

I started testing charm at 92 CHR and so far at 3/10 success
getting late and I'm tired so gonna sleep. try some more tomorrow.

Edit:
The wiki pages are really great. I do wish I would have had the charm duration information back when I was first leveling bst.

I disagree about a few points of the charm rate theories. I think its going to be a CHR comparison between mobs. I think thats going to be the main factor. when I back on test server I think I can make some comparisons w/ /drk and gauge.

basically find the gauge boundaries, then use absorb chr on mob, adjust my chr level w/ gear then gauge mob again. It should show if gauge and charm are affected when mob's chr is different or not.


but ack... I think the worm example rather supports your light elemental resistance item. worms are weak to light and I easily had very close to cap, if not capped charm rate on them.

Edited, Jun 2nd 2012 1:02am by Xilk

Edited, Jun 2nd 2012 1:10am by Xilk

and If we want to test something TRULY useless and boring, we would test TAME!

Edited, Jun 2nd 2012 1:15am by Xilk

blah, this post looks like garbage... I'm rambling and making tons of edits... but I'm waiting for these files to extract and I want to set it udating before I got to bed...

rereading your post made me think that gauge on /bst w/ varying levels of bst main on test server might yield interesting results.

Edited, Jun 2nd 2012 1:18am by Xilk
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#278 Jun 02 2012 at 4:37 AM Rating: Good
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Just a quick thing to add that may or not be relevant to the discussion, I have had a horrible track record with charming tiger mobs to date with top-tier (for my PC level) Charisma gear. I'm 95%+ with all other DC/EM mobs and around a 60%-70% with DC/EM tigers. Not sure if it's a specific thing about that creature type, but they are quite often a two-charm (or even three from time to time) mob in my limited experience. Also note that I play a Mithra, so their mini-nerfed racial Charisma might be a factor here.

Edited, Jun 2nd 2012 3:38am by psychophipps
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#279 Jun 02 2012 at 6:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'll second that sentiment - Tigers are brutal to charm sometimes.

---

Minimum Charm Duration

I set my Home Point at the Valkurm Outpost and spammed Charm on the Rabbits, Sheep, and Flies in the area as a level 1 BST/WHM (9 CHR).

After many attempts I successfully charmed a Sand Hare.
Sand Hare - 0:06 (CHR 9, Incredibly Tough+14~17) 6 Seconds

The theoretical Charm Duration should be...
Base Charm Duration = (1.25 * 9 CHR) + 150 = 161 seconds 
Corrected Charm Duration for -6 dLVL = 161 * 0.04 = 6.44 seconds

Even if we manufactured a 0 CHR situation, it seems like 6 seconds is as low as Charm Duration is gonna go.

Another Charm+ cap Test:
De Saintre's Axe: Charm+1
Monster Helm+2: Charm+6
Monster Jackcoat+2: Charm+8
Monster Gloves+2: Charm+5
Beast Trousers+1: Charm+6
Monster Gaiters+2: Charm+4
Atlaua's Ring: Charm+4 vs. Amorphs/Aquans

Charm+34
CHR 88+13

Kuftal Delver - 12:26 (CHR 101, Even Match+0) 746 Seconds
Base Duration = (1.25 * 101 CHR) + 150 = 276 
Charm Duration = (276 * (1 + [0.05 * 34])) = 745 Seconds

If the Charm+ cap had been, say, Charm+30, then the duration would've halted around the 11m 30s time mark. So...
I think the only way to have more Charm+ at this point, is to use the Axe with Assault: Charm+2 on it... :l

Edited, Jun 2nd 2012 12:19pm by Bookmarku
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#280 Jun 02 2012 at 10:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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The fun part about tigers is the movement speed when you mischarm them.
I should probably test charm rate w/ max chr on those tigers. See if I can 95% something that big.

88 + 74 CHR + Light Staff
VT Tiger
74/100 Charm success 74%

T Tiger
91/100 Charm Success 91%

I'll try finishing up charm rates at the boundary levels of chr next.

Edited, Jun 2nd 2012 3:08pm by Xilk

T Tiger 116 CHR + light staff

75/101 74.25%

T Tiger 116 CHR NO staff

48/103 46.60%

T Tiger 117 CHR NO staff

58/101 .... 57.42%


I want to comment a bit of irritation about these last couple samples. I'm using Kparser so the % ticks up in front of me w/ each charm attempt. There is a pattern to it. Usually the charm rate starts higher for the first ~20 charms. Then it dips below and bounces around abit. During the last 25 charms, it oscillates around a center point rather clearly.

The 116 CHR vs Tough Tiger was ossilating to 48% but then on the 100th charm there was a double miss. it was 47/99 right before the end. and I really think that should be 48%.

for the 117 CHR vs same T tiger, it was oscillating around 52% then in the last few it started shooting up... It wasn't until I was at 95 charms that I noticed it was Light day. From the effect of the light staff and lights day which has been observed by bsts for a long time, I'm sure Charm is a light based enfeeble. Things that boost the light attack/accuracy will affect charm. (too bad we can't test this w/ atma).

Guage.
Gauge results are NOT affected by light staff or light's day bonus to charm rate, they are affected by bst chr.

"PLAYER cannot charm the MOB!" Pretty sure this only designated mobs which are 100% immune to charm under any circumstances. I think If I gauge a level 99 mob on a level 10 bst, it will only give the next message:

"It would be very difficult for PLAYER to charm the MOB" I think this shows that your charm rate will be below some low %. I'm guessing 12.5%

"PLAYER might be able to charm the MOB" I"m guessing this will be between 25% and 50% (pretty sure its less than 50% from my tests so far)

"PLAYER should be able to charm the MOB" Charm rate > 50% I think my tests show this. Also, as Byrth mentioned, the hard cap is most likely 95%


I am very surprised to see ~25% difference between charm rate w/ and w/out light staff on the T tiger w/ 116 CHR

Edited, Jun 2nd 2012 6:24pm by Xilk

Edited, Jun 2nd 2012 7:55pm by Xilk
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#281 Jun 02 2012 at 6:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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I popped onto test server to check a couple things while waiting for the day to change.

1st
I changed to level 10 bst, and gauged a level 78ish sea puk.
"It would be very difficult for PLAYER to charm the MOB"
as expected.

Then I went at level 99 brd/10 bst back to kuftal... but I didn't have to go far. anything I gauged, said
"It would be very difficult for PLAYER to charm the MOB" even when I stacked another 70 chr on brd.

So gauge will consider both BST master main level and chr when making the comparison.
Next is just the tedious step I've been missing.. need to gather better parses. on an EM w/out light staff and with varying levels of chr. the trouble is finding a level 99 mob which is NOT weak to light.
They seem to be all bats and worms... guess I'll stay on test server then and change my level down a little bit.


HA!!

99DRK/bst(99) (bst/drk could not land absorb-chr at all)
Back in Kuftal on the Tigers. VT tiger. There is definitely a steep penalty on charm accuracy when bst is the support job.

base chr for drk/bst is 74
Drk gets the difficult to charm message all the way up to 120 chr
at 121 finally gets the 'MIGHT be able to charm" This is the place where BST main gets "Should be able to charm"

I took my chr to exactly 100 w/ gear (I expected to drain 20 chr, but I drained 21) putting me right back at 121. I thought I screwed up my test again, but the message was "Should be able to charm"
I was nto able to get to this message with gear alone on drk/bst. This means that there is definitely a comparison between player CHR and mob CHR in Charm accuracy. Draining down the Mob's CHR brought me into a higher charm tier. Looks like we have a dCHR :D



Edited, Jun 2nd 2012 11:08pm by Xilk
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#282 Jun 10 2012 at 8:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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I've put together this set to help test charm.
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/262229

Please let me know if you know any more potent chr - gear.
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#283 Jun 10 2012 at 1:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Neat. :) So what is the testing process that you're working on? And isn't there an Axe with CHR- on it...? Hmmm.

Wow, there are quite a few: Orcish Axe, Lust Dagger, Rainmaker, Wrath Tabar, Greed Scimitar.

Edited, Jun 10th 2012 4:02pm by Bookmarku
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#284 Jun 11 2012 at 6:08 AM Rating: Good
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Bookmarku wrote:
Neat. :) So what is the testing process that you're working on? And isn't there an Axe with CHR- on it...? Hmmm.

Wow, there are quite a few: Orcish Axe, Lust Dagger, Rainmaker, Wrath Tabar, Greed Scimitar.

Edited, Jun 10th 2012 4:02pm by Bookmarku


I'll grab an orcish axe also. Thank you.

I'll pretty much parallel your charm duration testing at this point. charm an em w/ a fixed amount of chr ~100 times. Then change the chr and keep parsing it out. Should find a pattern in how chr affects charm rate. Then keep a fixed chr and adjust level.

After getting this pattern, I'll do alot of adjustments to charisma to figure out gauge more precisely. I expect this will actually make it possible to identify the precise CHR of the mob similiar to determining mobs eva and def via the check command. I needed chr- gear to help find out where CHR level affects the messages "..would be difficult to charm" and "...would be very difficult to charm". I can't get those messages on bst main so far unless my level is much lower.

Edited, Jun 11th 2012 8:09am by Xilk
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#285 Aug 13 2012 at 11:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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the comment about familiar and new 2 hour on SE forums got my hopes up. so I went and parsed familiar'd hobs vs a bunch of level 82 g. colibri. I was hoping for some evidence of higher attack.

No such luck.

Melee high/low: 310/412
crit high/low 465/520


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#286 Aug 14 2012 at 7:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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I had some more unexpected results.
I ran another parse w/ Hobs vs level 82 G. Colibri. This time I had 2x pet attack astolfo and pet attack+ Mirke Wardecors on.

thats +59 pet attack. (was gonna use Aymur next... but I think I need a higher level target)

Again I did not see an increase in min/max melee or crit hits.

thats out of 450 attacks

melee min/max: 312/412

crit min/max 461/519

the min should be 460, and max 520 on the crits... but its surprisingly difficult to get there. I would expect a boost in attack to show some improvement... Will attack+ only be useful on high level/high def targets?

perhaps I should do the tests w/ a low attack pet like gooey.
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#287 Nov 12 2012 at 10:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yo,

This isn`t pet-related, but I`ve done some initial testing on Aytanri proc rate. :) Was single-wielding, and turtled up with PDT gear/Tavnazian taco for the duration of the test.

Abyssea-Uleg, Bluffalo
Atma: Sea Daughter, Vicissitude, Mounted Champion
Attack: 549
Defense: 635

Even Match Bluffalo -
Regular hits: 67~119 dmg
Proc hits: 134~204 dmg

Tough Bluffalo -
Regular hits: 63~113 dmg
Proc hits: 129~199 dmg

Total procs = 57/490 = 11.6%

So approximately a 10% proc rate for Aytanri.
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#288 Nov 12 2012 at 11:35 AM Rating: Good
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Great testing.
One would hope it used def more often. Any idea how high you could get def on BST?
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#289 Nov 13 2012 at 7:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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I suppose you could reach a decent amount with /blu, taco, Protect V... It's kind of hilarious that with all effort you could put into maxing your defense for a 10% chance at a decent Aytanri proc, that a person could just spend that energy on capping their attack. At least it's a pretty trophy... XD

I forget exactly, but I recall that the JP text for the weapon when it was first dat-mined was "occasionally adds DEF stat to your ATK stat" so I presumably had 1184 attack for ~10% of the hits. Would that have roughly capped me on Bluffalo? (Level 99: 516 defense, 118 Vitality, and Level 100: 521 defense, 118 Vitality, from BGWiki) My STR was 99+45 for that test.

I went back to Abbysea-Ule and played some more with Aytanri as BST/WAR.

STR: 104+160
Attack: 1019
Defense: 492
Atma: Stout Arm, Alpha&Omega, Siren Shadow

Since I was so close to the attack cap for Bluffalo, there was no clear cut-off point that indicated to me that Aytanri had activated.

Even Match Bluffalo:
Damage range: 144~229 dmg

There was one hit for 234 dmg, which was definitely a proc, but otherwise they're interspersed with the rest of the damage range.

Tough Bluffalo:
Damage range: 139~225 dmg

There was one hit for 227 dmg, but it's so close, it's hard to say.

Anyway, basically the axe will do nothing for the majority of BSTs with decent attack ratings in the first place. A person would almost certainly be better off with a STR/Atk Astolfo instead. If you were fighting a challenging NM, where your attack is potentially uncapped, you would likely either be in a group (with buffs on yourself, or debuffs on the mob) or be cowering on the sidelines with Pet:PDT axes on.

Agree/Disagree? Since I have the axe, I'd love to hear some thoughts on this. :)
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#290 Nov 13 2012 at 11:40 AM Rating: Good
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I think your analysis is pretty spot-on.

I don't see any strategic application of this axe for BST, and I think the "adds defense to attack" thing was really designed for WAR as the Axe/Shield pseudo-tank SE seems to still think they are. However, it doesn't make much sense there either considering they have two abilities that trade 25% of one for the other.
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#291 Nov 13 2012 at 5:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Its an easy 78 damage mainhand for those not making ganelon or a relic/mythic.

otherwise it has a peculiar gimmick. Yeah, I can't think of any stategic use. it woulda been more interesting if it always used def stat for attack instead. but gimmick is gimmick.
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#292 Nov 17 2012 at 7:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, that's true. :)

It's a shame that this axe is locked behind such an abysmal drop rate though, when considering all these things. ; ;
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#293 Nov 19 2012 at 5:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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yeah it seems a bit silly to bury fairly middling things like this axe under ridiculous drop rates
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#294 Nov 22 2012 at 12:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm excited to test out the new bst special move. So in preparation, I started organizing a table of ready moves.

I did some testing to nail down certain details, such as which moves are blunt, which are slashing, piercing, or what magical element the damage is or if enhancing or enfeebling. I also noted the number of charges, Target type: Single, Conal, Radial, Self, party and Additional effects.
The notes have any details for calculating damage or potency for the effects.
For example, Yuly's Noisome Powder, Gooey's Corrosive Ooze and fargann's Acit Mist all give an attack down effect.
However, Yuly's is 15%, Gooey's is 33%, and Fargann's is 50%.

Quite the contrast.

Some of the types just say "physical" I haven't finished confirming all of them whether they are blunt, piercing or slashing.
I don't want to guess because some are not intuitive. I really expected Whirl Claws to be slashing, but its Piercing. And Cyclotail is blunt.


I'll need to find someone to pair up in brenner to test all the enhancing effects.. and hopefully to figure mnd and vit down amounts for Merle. The pandemic nip method didn't want to work for those 2.

I think Cetas really got the shaft for ready moves and needs a buff. Venom is only 1/tic poison.. that pathetic. Leaf dagger and queasyshroom are both 7 and Toxic spit is 24.

I suspect Backheel and Lambchop can crit, but not sure.

... and I'd love to link the spreadsheet.. but Google Drive is crapping out on me and I'm getting tired....
sorry, I'll get it up here later.

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#295 Nov 22 2012 at 4:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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Xilk wrote:
For example, Yuly's Noisome Powder, Gooey's Corrosive Ooze and fargann's Acit Mist all give an attack down effect.
However, Yuly's is 15%, Gooey's is 33%, and Fargann's is 50%.
[...]
I really expected Whirl Claws to be slashing, but its Piercing. And Cyclotail is blunt.
[...]
I think Cetas really got the shaft for ready moves and needs a buff. Venom is only 1/tic poison.. that pathetic. Leaf dagger and queasyshroom are both 7 and Toxic spit is 24.


Whoa, this is good info! Thanks for doing the testing, man. :) Never realized how powerful Fargann's Acid Mist was...!

It'd be sweet to set up a wiki page somewhere for this stuff!
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#296 Nov 22 2012 at 8:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, it should go in a wiki.

I'll try to plop it into a text editor and drop a table into the wiki's... Probably on the page for ready.

I was really surprised how strong acid mist was also, but in retrospect, I should have suspected something.

I was in a party of 4x BST going after Medusa at level 90. One BST was able to awesomely hold all the adds w/ just fargann and acid mist after we initially had some trouble. I suppose between blunt resistance, water resistance, and their attack power cut in 1/2, they really couldn't hurt him much.

Anyway, I still need to get durations for all the extra effects and and I'll need to parse for things like paralyze potency... And there are about 6 more moves I need to test physical damage type.

Should be useful information for diehard BST's.


...on another side note.. I think Merle is probably best for solo killing jailer of temperance. His melee is blunt of course, but leaf dagger is slashing and wild oats is piercing. Headbutt is blunt of course, but he can actually do damage in all modes. (Hurray for glyph axe)

Edited, Nov 22nd 2012 9:16am by Xilk
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#297 Nov 22 2012 at 10:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Okay, I added a table of what I have so far to the ffxiclopedia wiki. (Sorry Byrth, its not on bg wiki. I'm just not used to tables on bg, and there is more pet info at wikia anyway)

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Ready

This is the information I have so far. I'll add more as I get it.

Edited, Nov 22nd 2012 12:05pm by Xilk

Edited, Nov 22nd 2012 12:06pm by Xilk
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#298 Nov 22 2012 at 10:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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Awesome, love the wiki page. :) Thanks!
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#299 Nov 22 2012 at 11:14 AM Rating: Good
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Thanx Falkirk

I kinda want to have icon templates for enhancing and enfeebling and for target types, but oh well.

I probably won't be able to get back to this till late tonight or tomorrow.
I'll work on the following:

1. Finish classification of physical ready move damage types.
2. Collect Duration for enfeebling and enhancing effects
3. Parse Potency of Paralyze effects (I'm expecting some interesting information here, I'm betting blaster wins potency award)

If there is anything other useful information you can think of, please let me know, or add to the table.
I don't really want to try to parse the effectiveness of the accuracy and evasion effects... Though it would be very useful.
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#300 Nov 23 2012 at 3:55 PM Rating: Good
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Wow! good work!
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#301 Nov 23 2012 at 7:15 PM Rating: Good
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Thanx to Zangada, who teamed up w/ me today for ~6 hours in brenner, we were able to collect most the information I outlined above and a bit more.
I realize that I missed a few durations for enhancing abilities, but I should be able to collect those solo.
I've added almost all the durations to the table on the ready page of Wiki.

I also classified the remaining physical ready moves... they were all blunt.
I had a few surprises also. Harden shell is from raphie is only def +50%, while water wall from Toloi is a +100% def. Although raphie's base def is much higher than Toloi's.


I don't have definitive information about paralyze effects.
I don't have a large enough sample size. but I can give you an informed opinion based off information
Palsy Pollen wins by a large percentage for paralyze potency.
Next are surprisingly Snow cloud and Spore
Then Roar
and then Blaster and Numbshroom.

I was really surprise how weak Shasra's blaster is.
but I suppose the paralyze on Choke breath is about the same w/ an even shorter duration.

My eyeballing it looks like blaster and coke breath might be around 10% proc rate, and palsy pollen around 40~50%
with snow cloud and spore somewhere around 25~33%
These are just eyeballing guesses w/ a little counting on a small sample. I don't know if I"ll test them more.

the REALLY good party about today's testing was we threw in another.
MAGIC testing on the pets.
We used t3 nukes vs most all the pets to check for damage resistances. I haven't crunched all the numbers, but I"ll post them soon.
This Does give us a clear picture about pet magic resistances, damage reductions... and... actual INT values for the pets at level 99!



Edited, Nov 23rd 2012 8:17pm by Xilk
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