Herculean Slash vs Infernal Scythe and buildsFollow

First of all, wiki says the multiplier for HS is 3.5, while the multiplier of 1.0. Is this wrong? If not, isn't HS better by default? What's the INT mod on IS when dINT is capped (it caps at 24 making it very easy to hit with any Magic WS)?

I'm currently working on a 2-4 GS for sh*ts and giggles since I don't want to work on Caladbolg while my wife is working on things that run in the same path. I'm trying to work out a strong HS build. I'm currently eyeing:

Weapon: 2-4 hit GS
Grip: Mythril +1
Ammo: Soil Sachet
Head: Twilight Helm
Neck: Prudence Torque
Ear1: Novio
Ear2: Hecate's
Body: Twilight Mail / Abyss Cuirass
Hands: Vicious Mufflers
Ring1: VIT+7
Ring2: VIT+7
Back: Cavalier's +1?
Waist: Warwolf
Legs: Nimue's tights
Feet: Bale +2

Any advice?

Also, what atmas? was thinking either Beyond/Ultimate/Griffon or Beyond/Ultimate/Undying f Griffon didn't work with magic WSs.

Wouldn't the 20% from the Undying be better than the 30MAB from Baying Moon? It's more like a 15% increase to total damage, but the 30MAB shouldn't be anywhere near that when over 200MAB right?

As for the faster TP instead of the higher WS, wouldn't Plague Bringer be better? I could get a 5 hit easily with the +20 STP it gives, making it better than Malef+2 for WS rate right?

I was thinking about the resistant mobs too, but I figured more mobs resist Dark than there are mobs that resist Ice.

I know Undying is only ~15% more because of Beyond. I'd be breaking 2.00 MAB without Ascetic's pretty easily, looking at something like 2.20 without and 2.45 with, making it ~13.64% without and 12.24% with tonic.

The difference is miniscule and BM has the advantage of a 30 attack boost to it, not that that does much if anything on most mobs. So I guess it really doesn't matter.



So HS does more damage faster in terms of WS numbers. Wouldn't a 40% increase to Endark be dwarfed by the WS output of the HS build? As for the drains and such, from a damage point of view, wouldn't it be better to not use them? Currently, my delay is lower than the casting time of Drain, and with a 5 hit build, each attack round is potentially enough tp to WS since I only need to land 4 hits to get 100TP. My WS is close to 2k damage, wouldn't it on average be less total damage? If it's just for the extra healing, if I were to be fighting something and be worried about cures, I'd be fighting with Apocalypse and a healer that didn't suck, not that everyone can do that lol.

Something else I want to ask, s the dINT uncapped on all of the "new" magc WSs, and if so, how would that affect my HS build aside from making Twilight that much better?

Edit: HS dINT does cap, just did a simple test. Increasing INT by 8 added 0 damage to the damage. Easy enough.

Edit2: Confirmed dINT cap on IS.

Edited, May 1st 2011 10:21am by Return1



Edited, May 1st 2011 10:28am by Return1

I have been using Herculean Slash before people thought it was cool. Never saw ANY increase/decrease w/ int.

Can you tell how low the dINT cap is by throwing on food and gear with -int to see where it caps?

Shhh! The Torcleaver DRKs will get butthurt!

Yes, it will actually match or annihilate most non-empyrean crit jobs, especially when people will bitch (pointlessly) about them making Ruby and you WS first every fight, but also on NMs where their Ratio and Crit Rate takes much more of a dive than they'll admit (much like Torcleaver tends to drop below 1k rather often).

Torc and Crit is for BNS whores.

I'd like to point out, that to drop below 1k damage on a mob without -physical damage taken as a DRK in abyssea with Torcleaver, means you should really just quit the job.

With slight effort in gear, Cruor Buffs, and atma, 1k is a complete joke.

/RDM for 24 more MAB is only 13% more damage or less. What I showed across a few posts in this thread was that getting a 2-4 weapon down to a 5-hit build cuts the 3-round+ rate to just 28% before multihit traits and opens up one-round cycles. It's quite the boost and is the best use of your third atma to get +20 STP towards that.

Also take note that your Enlight damage will be enhanced 30% by Beyond. Use it!


I'm not going to get into the Torc argument again. Seeing another group's NQ Torc DRK drop a 950 Torc on Bennu was pathetic. They have serious double-standards in the 'on sh*t that matters' department.

So does Quietus's ignore defense ignore level correction as well, or is it that poeple just can't be assed to get some DD food and build for higher defense mobs?

Just to be clear, I know you can no longer overcome level correction through attack+




Most HNMs never really had higher Defense than other mobs of the same level, they just had larger level correction in their favor, or some hidden -dmg% (sky gods for example).

Mob growth is pretty static, so a good estimate for your average WAR type mob is hovering around 400-420DEF at 90, less for mage types. Breaking 800 attack in abyssea really isn't that hard in WS gear. I'm sitting on 622 attack outside of abyssea, without food, or buffs. After the 10th, breaking 1k most of the time should be within grasp for those that use heavy DD foods. Then, there's defense down. That's -10% at least since you have a healer tagging along, and up to -20% if you're one of those groups that brings a BLU along everywhere.

Also, I did quite a bit of research on HS and IS, mostly from Studio Gobli as they have this set in stone, and I will list the property of each WS and Sanguine Sword in comparison.

Herculean Slash:

ftp=3.50
Modifier=VIT 60%

Inferno Scythe:

ftp=3.50
Modifier=STR 30% INT 30%

Sanguine Sword:

ftp=2.75
Modifier=STR 30% MND 50%

Ppl who study WS formula will ask, well, what about D value? Your D value in a magic WS is your lvl + 2. So in this case, 90+2=92.

So (90+2+VIT60%)*3.5*MAB is what you should expect.

Sanguine sword has dINT x 2 property, so its formula is ((90+2+STR30%+MND50%)*2.75*MAB)+dINTx2

So there you have it. There is a reason why INT does nothing to HS cuz it is not a modifier and it is not a portion of your D. INT should improve IS slightly since it is 30%.



Edited, May 4th 2011 4:48pm by pochenlai

ftfy


Also, just because we're going outside of Abyssea doesn't mean Torcleaver will lose its 5 hit in newer areas. The addition of "Atmacite" to the game just shows SE intends to carry the atma system to all the new additions. They may very well take a page from various other MMORPGs and make Quest/Mission/NM titles give atma like effects.

My prediction is that the new "atmacite" will work similar to merits.

There will be different types of atmacite:
attack
defense
STR
critical hit rate
refresh
regen
...


Each of these atmacite will have levels that you can upgrade with cruor:
lv1 refresh = 1 mp/tick
lv2 refresh = 2 mp/tick
...

Finally, you'll have a limit to how many you can equip. Either you can use so many levels of atmacite or a limited number of atmacite types.

Also, you like to think that other ppl aren't being objective. When you have your idea set in stone you aren't being very objective either. You forgot that with lower delay, which is obviously the Achilles heel for Caladbolg, it can take advantage of Endark more, take advantage of SE more, all that little things can add up. It seems like you didn't realize Caladbolg can reach 6 hit to counter Redemption's 5 hit outside abyssea. And if you really do believe that the difference between the two WS is less than 10% as you stated, then the 7.5% WS frequency would at the most put the two weapons in par. No one is giving the idea of Caladbolg is vastly superior than Redemption other than you and perhaps some other Caladbolg owners, you seem to be very defensive about this topic. I have always been fair with Redemption and was just stating that the WS don't compare, but the two weapons are indeed very close in term of overall output. I see your argument in the main forum with other guys, but I am not one of those Caladbolg owner who are like HAHA Redemption sucks, I know too much about this game's mechanic to sprout that BS.



Also, tell me where did I say about Caladbolg being better than Redemption in that paragraph.... please don't put words in my mouth...

Edited, May 6th 2011 10:38am by pochenlai

Sorry more editing: You mentioned that if you want to push limit, you would go with magian magic WS inside abyssea, which I totally agree. But if you are going to push limit outside abyssea, Caladbolg will likely have higher ceiling due to the word "push limit" seems to indicate proper support in attack from brd and cor and dia 3 and all that debuff etc etc, which will practically wipe out all the ignore defense factor of Quietus if you are capped in that department. I actually think it is the other way around outside abyssea as Redemption is easier to be average but Torcleaver has higher potential.

Edited, May 6th 2011 11:02am by pochenlai

And don't get me wrong. I like this discussion with you Raelix. I think you are one of those Drks who think outside the box. Just please don't label me as one of those guys who blindly follow the Caladbolg bandwagon, I know my math behind this stuff, so give me some benefit of the doubt like I do to you.

Edited, May 6th 2011 11:06am by pochenlai

This is getting retarded.

Torcleaver is a superior WS to Quietus.

Redemption is a superior weapon to Caladbolg.

Redemption WSes 22.1% faster in a vacuum.

Caladbolg WSes 22.9% harder in a vacuum.



Discrepencies in WS gear Makes Torcleaver weaker than that "22.9%" WS damage advantage, and the presence of multi-attack rounds @#%^s up Redemption's "22.1%" speed advantage.

In fact, the advantage outside of this napkin math world you two @#%^tards keep arguing about goes to Caladbolg, because every Multi attack that puts it at the exact number of hits it needs, increases its WS speed. In situations where multihits puts you over 100tp, Torcleaver receives a benefit over Quietus because its fTP rises, while for the most part, more ignore defense bonus is useless.

Long story short? Caladbolg is better in the real world as long as you have buffs and aren't busy being a napkin mathing tool.

The difference is so stupidly miniscule when both are properly played, that it can easily be overshadowed by good DD habits, like target switching, instant response to 100TP, and JA timing.

Except that 5-hit build with Redemption lets you WS in just non-removables and Brutal/Rajas, while the same setup on Caladbolg barely makes a 6-hit with all of it left on for WS.

Please continue thinking that Redemption 5-hit isn't worth it just because Caladbolg 6-hit isn't and that such an advantage is irrelevant and should be ignored, etc. Pick and choose what you like to make your choice of weapon look less like it could have been drawn out of a hat and would make as much a difference.

Do you see this? You just blew off a perfectly fine 5-hit build on Redemption to favor Caladbolg. I'm not trying to insult you at this point, I'm honestly trying to point out what a farce your argument is here. You're doing your damndest to discredit Redemption being even just equal to Caladbolg by throwing out the largest advantage it has.

This makes you exactly like one of those other Torc tards. Stop it.

Damage over time in TP phase is irrelevant of build unless you start looking too hard a WS saturation. Never WSing at all makes as much difference as WSing every time 100 rolls around on TP phase damage, it doesn't matter if there's four hits between your WS or six. At the end of the day it's just damage and delay.


How about I do that WS saturation math for you too, before you jump on that as your next "BUTB UUBUTBUTBUTBUT CALADBOLG STILL HAS...":

And you've definitely conceded to a 7-hit on Caladbolg, while anyone worth their salt with a Redemption wouldn't pass up 5-hitting it.

Basic cycle time = ( Delay * Hitbuild-1) * ( 1 - Haste% ) + 120

No haste
Redemption: 2128
Caladbolg: 2700

Redemption takes 78.8% as long per cycle, or WSes 26.9% faster, take your pick.

Capped haste
Redemption: 521.6
Caladbolg: 636

Redemption takes 82.0% as long, or WSes 21.9% faster.

So even going from zero to capped haste makes @#%^ all for difference, WS saturation isn't a big deal


Wanna know something interesting? I had Penitence 5-hit pegged as better than Redemption 6-hit back during level 80 cap using this same math.


Return1, I would much rather resort to napkin math than this asinine assumption that the superior WS trumps all other advantages. I learned to dig out and expose this bullsh*t in the SAM era. This will be done to death every time someone mentions Torcleaver, which with the bandwagoneering of DRK on the horizon I think is going to be quite too much a chore, so I'll get it out of the way now.

Redemption and Caladbolg are for the most part dead equal outside of Abyssea, all things (possible to be) considered.

You know what I seem to hear a lot lately, purely by implication of course? "It's not 100% better, so it sucks." Be it in reference to jobs or weapons or any comparison where tenths of a percentage point of performance are in play.

You know what Redemption can do that Caladbolg can't? Throw Guillotine for a free and accurate Silence or during Souleater without taking too much of a damage hit or even breaking ODD stride. I think that's all the advantage I need, no matter how situational. Caladbolg is a weapon for BNS meatheads who consider nothing but damage but think themselves too 'exotic' to go level WAR or something. There are plenty of factors in Redemption's favor that make up for the fTP discrepancy.



I can ding this too. With a ~15tp overage (not gonna assume a bog-standard 7-hit) from a Double Attack on a closing round, Torcleaver gains 0.15 fTP. It's rather nice and easy to calculate like that.

4.9 / 4.75 = 3.16% increase.

With a 20tp overage from a Double Attack on a closing round, Quietus's bonus climbs from 10% to 14%.

1.14 / 1.10 = 3.6% increase, assuming Attack is not capped (and rarely will it ever be).

Isn't that funny? I love paltry arguments, but even more when they backfire so completely. I'm not reflecting this on you, just pointing out a plainly fallacious statement. Even in a rare attack-capped situation... 3% more damage on 10% of your WS, woo-f*cking-hoo.


I'm happy to discuss this on friendly(-as-possible) terms in another thread so we stop sh*tting up the neato magical WS (which likely spanks both in Abyssea) thread anymore. Maybe call a mod to move these posts to a separate thread if Alla supports that.

Edited, May 7th 2011 2:44am by Raelix

I'd just like to point out that the silence of guillotine has saved me more times than I can count (mostly elementals and soloing in campaign at 75). To single it out as a reason Redemption > Caladbolg is a bit of a stretch though.

Raelix... I give up.... what makes you think Redemption 5 hit and Caladbolg 6 hit are substantially different? I thought I didn't have to lay it out for you cuz you can do your own math but here it goes.

Redemption 5 hit build gear setup:

redemption/rose/whiteT
zelus/bale/brutal/attila
Askar/af3+2/rajas/hoard
tactical/goading/ace/ace

Total 53 stp /sam, 20.8 tp per hit, WS in brutal/rajas/rose and you get 17 tp per WS.

Caladbolg 6 hit build and my current gear setup:

Caladbolg/rose/whiteT
zelus/almah/brutal/attila
Aurum/af3+2/rajas/hoard
tactical/goading/ace/ace

Total 57 stp /sam, 17.2 tp per hit, need to WS in rajas/rose/Ace's feet and you get 14.1 tp per WS.

If you are assuming the food choice is carbonara, then it frees up Atheling mantle to each build and frees up the restriction to have to WS in ace's feet or rajas's ring for Caladbolg.

Yes, almost the same build, there are some slight difference, most noticably the 2% DA difference, but like I said was practically the same build. Redemption is able to have more flexibility and able to pick and choose certain parts. I think using askar instead of using bomblet is the better build, which bring Redemption's WS rate up further.

But like I said, you should never ever compare a 5 hit Redemption to a 7 hit Caladbolg. What makes alot of FFXI calculator followers say that it is not worth it, is the back, body, head swap. Instead of using AF3+2 head body and Atheling mantle, you are losing a big chunk of attack and a big chunk of DA. While I still believe it is worth the sacrifice, I can see their point on how it might not be. I THINK IT IS WORTH IT!!!! You need to stop thinking that I don't think it is worth it, I simply brought out other ppl's view to offer more perspective. Yet when I compare the two weapons, I keep giving the 7.5% WS frequency, which is assuming the builds are worth it. Or else I would have used the 3% difference if we are doing 6 hit vs 7 hit. You need to get that straight up.

There is no but but Caladbolg has what, it is fact that it gets an extra hit in during TP phase, I am not sure how you can disregard that. You can worry about WS satuation all you want, which favors weapon that WS slower anyway, so I am not sure why you even bring that up. If both weapon add a 2 sec in their cycle, it hurts Redemption more than it hurts Caladbolg.

And in case you want to say that Caladbolg has to use Ace's feet and Rajas ring to WS, it really isn't a huge sacrifice. The feet of choice for me was Onyx Sollerets, and the other ring slot was Spiral ring, so what I lost is a few attacks and 5 VIT, which is 1-2% of the damage.

You can bring all that difference in, it will still be hard to make up for the difference between the two WSs. And I believe I should have compare 5 hit to 4 hit during TP phase due to the fact that we are comparing the damage each WS can put out in a WS cycle. As long as (5 hit + Torcleaver) = (4 hit + Redemption)*1.095 (giving you that 2% frequency from askar), we are talking about the same output. So I am not really sure why you keep pointing out the WS frequency advantage, it is offset by a weaker WS. I am not saying Caladbolg is better than Redemption, I am simply pointing that Redemption isn't going to be magically better than Caladbolg outside of abyssea. HEY THEY CAN BE CLOSE, WHICH IS WHAT MY POINT IS, GIVE ME SOME CREDIT FOR EVEN GIVING YOU THAT MUCH.

Edited, May 7th 2011 1:49pm by pochenlai

Edited, May 7th 2011 2:47pm by pochenlai