So Ultimatum is Better than OAT Scythe? Follow

Basically, it seems to be confirmed all around that Double Attack doesn't Proc at all with the magian OAT weapons. I get 9 DA with my gear setup and I'm sure somebody could get much more. So in terms of overall dmg:

you can take 78DMG * 1.45 and get 113 DMG while feeding the MOB TP and having a weaker Guiotine
Or you can take 105DMG *1.09 and have 114.45 DMG with a more powerful Guiotine

Of course many of you might bring up the obvious that using Vengeance will allow you to Weaponskill More. Well...If you were to do that, I don't see the difference of subbing /WAR and getting hate that way.

To me, Ultimatum is more practical for parties. Vengeance is a great 2 hour Scythe for DRK.

Now the real question will be which one turns into Redemption? Probably the relic / mythic? Or maybe a brand new path? Who knows

With OAT and 66% haste (I forget where I got this average haste value) and a 6-hit build, it takes you about 10.6 seconds to make 100tp, on average, but you then need 12.6 seconds to full cycle (2 seconds lost per WS). You get about 84% efficiency.

For the 105 scythe, you need 14.96 seconds for 100tp, so 16.96s per cycle. 88% efficiency.

.84*113 = 94.9
.88*105 = 92.4

With WS saturation factored in, OAT scythe is only really 2-3% more damage, less than half the presumed effectiveness, for a lot more headache, gear swapping, and TP discipline.

Its not as obscenely better as first guessed. You can WS too much.

Edited, Jun 8th 2010 8:11pm by Raelix

Its two seconds. Usually most of it is already passed by the time your WS input goes to the server and back to you. It doesn't reset your delay or anything, just adds two seconds of hold time.

Poch already ran into this problem with his OAT GS. You eat up a lot of time WSing and aren't swinging nearly as much as you'd expect.

This is why a MNK should never WS in the middle of Hundred Fists, and related to why THFs can stack four JAs between three-quarter-second rounds.

Vis-à-vis

Sheddap. It causes unabateable issues that hamper it's presumed performance. Stop being a bench-jockey and get with the program.

Edited, Jun 8th 2010 10:30pm by Raelix

Its called lag plus waiting until moments before you swing again and having that swing put on hold until after the WS is complete. The WS is already done by the time you see it finish animating because the servers are in motherf*cking JAPAN.

Don't make me go to the THF forum to drag this sh*t up again.


Its much less an issue and OAT is unquestionably better below 50% haste, but it becomes a bigass issue when you really start ramping it up.

Edited, Jun 8th 2010 10:35pm by Raelix

Shinta, I don't get to say this often enough:

Shut your whore mouth.

No, your 15% DA will still proc on the rest of the 60%. Ppl have parsed as warriors to have approximately 50% DA overall with OAT weapon, meaning it acts exactly like joy.

OAT weapon does require alot of TP management however. I am not sure tho however, on whether there is a delay after WS or not, but it does seem odd that after I WS, I often stare at the 17tp with my OAT GS for a couple sec before it goes up again even under very high haste situation.

I personally still believe OAT scythe rapes DMG scythe not just slightly better. If anything, it makes souleater that much more powerful. And I have figured out a way to set spellcast to eliminate much of the human error on not WSing right at 100%.

And jeez.... why was I dragged into being called an idiot again... if unreliable means figuring out ratio is capped, and figuring out how the ratio bonus was applied, then I guess it is hard to impress you Shinta... All I gave was an opinion on my experience with the OAT GS and got parses to back up, and I didn't make any conclusion on WS delay either (in fact I didn't even know the 2 sec theory). I said it seems to me that I wasted alot of TP under higher haste situation that's all, and thought WSing frequently slowed me down somehow. I mean, ppl can't have observation anymore... I mean, why would I want to bat the OAT weapon down when I have the OAT GS and am half way on OAT Scythe, and OAT polearm.....

Edited, Jun 9th 2010 12:50pm by pochenlai

in this example, the OAT would be better due to greater WS frequency. i hope you tried harder at thinking while you were accumulating your numerous degrees.

So it is either impress you with the way you want it or I am an idiot even though I put forth the effort that others don't. There is nothing in between I see... xD

I find it hard to believe it is actually 2 full seconds, however, it's likely a stitch longer than 1 second since you would otherwise expect at least 1 attack between stringing thief JAs together.

I would definitely be putting more faith in the OAT scythe the better your TP build is and the weaker the mob since fstr will close the difference in their base damage. Coupled with the fact that you can probably tack on another trial to the weapon to further close the base damage difference.

Looking at the delay testing, it is more likely that there is just a minimum 2 second difference between WS than adding 2 seconds. For instance, while a 150 delay would be facing an increase in delay, a 528 with a whopping base 8.8 delay might not actually experience any change. It wouldn't make a difference to my current builds so someone who cares can check a slower weapon.

i agree with you in chastising shinta (if you don't like nameless's testing, do it better) and noting TPing past 100% or WS delay or whatever, but don't post stupidity like this to me. i'm tempted to not explain this since you should be smart enough to figure it out yourself. first of all, fSTR means that the OAT does more melee damage in the first place. second, WSC (and greater WS frequency) means more WS damage. OP's original analysis is flawed in numerous ways, and in defending it you're just being a contrarian dick.

Both sides of the issue are wrong.

The correct answer is: The best scythe is Colibridemption.

Withholding information and then going 'AHA!' when its missed is not being witty, its being useless, which I said a few posts back. Not trying to insult you with this, just stating a purposeful observation.

I'll disagree with you all I damn well please, because I expect any error to be brought to light immediately. Leading a horse to water only works on horses, I brought a few bottles neh?

You show me the error, I'll weave the whole thing again. Its how I've always worked: I see whats wrong and I fix it, but that doesn't work if someone doesn't tell me whats wrong (Gee, sounds like my recent breakup now). I've spent 13 months working on a single Starcraft map by this method.

You and I are a powerful clash of methods. You insinuated something was wrong and I found about four different other things that it could have been to eliminate.

Never anything personal with me btw, which is why I'm so unfazed when someone tries to be scathing or demeaning of my posting around here. I never let petty namecalling and temporary insanity get in the way of respect.

Edited, Jun 10th 2010 1:08am by Raelix

I overthought it anyway. Should look more like:

66%
OAT: 139.9 * .84 = 117.5
105: 130.8 * .88 = 115.1

OAT is 2% better.

80%
OAT: 139.9 * .7586 = 106.1
105: 130.8 * .8146 = 106.6

Dead heat.

So it comes full circle to my original conclusion: OAT is fairly-to-marginally better until high haste, and then good @#%^ing luck keeping up with a WS every eight seconds or less. I would be quite serious about needing a windower autoexec rule just to fire the damn things off fast enough. OAT is obviously better for Souleater usage, but I contest may actually be too much for standard usage of it (I'm simply not sure I'd want unpredictability added to my throwing of my own HP at the mob). Ultimatum may still be somewhat equivalent or better if you're one of those freaks like me who can pull 70-90tp with ATP and rides every meditate.

Edited, Jun 10th 2010 1:33am by Raelix

After recalculating the math behind Raelix's claim, it makes alot of sense the way he did it. However, one thing I am not entirely clear, and this is not a nitpick as I want to get this right. I realized that you are using about 29% more WS for OAT since there will be situation where you DA at 83% tp (you said about 27% chance for bad DA), which is fine. However, when you calculate efficiency, you also need to take that into account and divided by 1.29 instead of 1.4 for the cycle since the OAT scythe isn't WSing as often as it should. This will bring the efficiency of OAT scythe up and you can go from there. I am tempted to make an Ultimatum for high haste situation now... tho I am still waiting for Kirschy to test it, which isn't going to be anytime soon as she is working on Maat cap before the update.

Also, just from eyeballing, which is bad for obvious reason so don't take this too seriously. I was killing my 400 arcana last night with another drk. We have the same haste figure, same weapon obviously. There were a few occasions where he got 100% and WS and then a sec later I get a regular hit in. Then I would get another regular hit in before he would get his first swing after WS in, and I am talking about a couple sec more not a fraction of the time. I also did keep an eye on my own WS, and my delay after WS is definitely longer than my regular delay. I don't use any hecatomb stuff when I WS, which is not a conscious decision to avoid it, just the way I set my guillotine up, but the other drk uses almost full hecatomb set for WS (minus the leg I think). So either your after WS swing delay is based on your WS gear even though you swap it out right after, or there is a fixed delay.

Need testing...

PLASTIC FACE! GAH!
But, thank you. Just enough clothing to stay tasteful, but enough lack of it to show off a nice figure.

Her eyes are looking into my soul......change the pic!

He'll change the pic when you change your giant @#%^ing sig with more information, spacing, and non-[sm] having text than anyone wants to see or cares about.