Gigas bracelets: re-evalutated?Follow

They weren't really that great an idea to begin with. Now while DEX=ACC, -DEX hurts even more for multi hit and especially for DoT.

uhhh... you don't dot with gigas and you should use Nhands for crit WS. So the only thing that changed for me is... use Nhands for Raging Rush instead of Alkys. If you're seriously worried about ACC-3, get your @#%^ing great axe out of storage and look at your 95% ACC rate.

No...
I completely disagree with everyone.
You now have SO MUCH ACCURACY, that the -acc from Alky's will have absolutely no effect. If the Acc loss wasn't enough to matter before, it's even LESS of an issue now. You're looking at it the wrong way.

actually, if you THINK about it, the gigas line of bracelets just got BETTER. Honestly, think about how much bonus acc you are getting at 75. Just from base DEX it's like 30-35. That's free sushi basically. Now, most normal WS builds will include at LEAST hauby and warwolf for +10, which cancels out -dex and adds even more.

Granted on a multi-hit WS, you might still want to go with something like heca hands for jobs that can wear them, but for a job like sam with all 1 hit WS, alky's just got WAY better than any other hand piece for WS.

Heck, even for war, I'm gonna base my decision on how accurate my WS are before taking off my alky's. I'm guessing in a lot of cases I'll be leaving them on. You haven't LOST any DEX since before the update, you just haven't gained any either.

thing is, they HAVEN'T dropped since the update. In fact, most have stayed the same or increased in price. Unlike stuff like Maneater, Woods, Sniper's, etc... none of these items have seen a price change.

The main reason is that they are much rarer to find than the above, or at least pallas and alkys are. The other reason though, is that STR = att now, so although you might not be getting help for DEX, you are getting help for attack. And since everyone is parsing like 95% acc in most situations, it really doesn't have any negative effect.

Or at least, that's my take on it.

I used to get 1 point for a correct answer on a test.

Now I get 2 points for a correct answer on a test.

Oh crap ... If I miss a question now though I lose two points.

But oh yeah! I can miss 1/2 of the questions and get 100%.



I'm going to melee in them.

Total score is still 100. I guess I could have clarified but I thought people would understand given the analogy.

100 point quiz. 100 questions.

1 point each question = 100 possible points out of 100.

If I get 2 points now for each question but the denominator is still 100 I can get 50 answers right and get 100%.

50*2=100. 100/100 = 1 = 100%

Still not clear enough? Each correct answer gives 1 extra credit point. That's what the dex acc bonus is like now, extra credit. The evasion of the mobs has not changed, just like the denominator, or graded points on the test.

I have 60 base DEX. I used to then have an acc bonus of 30 because of that.

Now I have a bonus of 60 ACC, so I can lose half of that and still be where I used to be.

My bonuses to acc from my other DEX overcompensates for the 1-to-1 loss of ACC from equipping -DEX stuff.

My work is percentage based statistics ... really nerdy, complex, insane statistics. Sometimes I just assume people would be thinking along the same vein when I guess they are not.

Edited, Sep 3rd 2007 10:56pm by baldgalkaguy

I still wouldn't use them except for single hit non-crit weapon skills, like usual. You can still get better results from haste and attack gear than Gigas can provide.

Holy crap wookie--you're the grumpiest. Think about the way ACC is now calculated from DEX before reading this.

We get double the bonus from our DEX now. Even though equipping the bracelets takes away 1 full ACC per DEX I've still got tons of extra ACC from all my other DEX. Natural DEX alone I'm getting 30 more ACC than I used to before the update. A hauby +1 gives me 3 extra. Everywhere I've got DEX I'm getting .5 extra ACC than before. So I can afford to equip some -dex stuff because its over compensated everywhere else.

Back to the analogy:

Correct test questions now have 1 extra credit point. The points I'm graded on are only 100, I can FIX THE DENOMINATOR IF I'M THE FREAKIN' TEACHER. I understand what you're saying there are a potential 200 points. But I'm only graded on 100.

That's exactly what our DEX bonus is like now. My DEX on my Hauby are giving me .5 extra ACC each. All my DEX everywhere is giving me "extra credit". The mob's evasion has not changed, therefore the denominator is the same (like the test, 100 not 200).

Are you following me yet? Or just being grumpy?

Someone needs to bring the science, because I'm thinking that 3 haste isn't going to compare to 11 str and 11 attk. Plus with the new way that accuracy is calculated -6 Dex is pretty laughable - there's no xp mob outside of Lurkers that you're going to be less than 95% acc on, with or without Alky's.

*This is all based on two-handed-weapon build, not dual-wield.

I am not sure tbh. Using Axe/Axe War/Nin at level 50 Spiked Finger Gauntlets consistently out-parsed Enkelados's Bracelets but with 1 Str = 1 Atk for the moment that has probably changed and given 1 Dex = 1 Acc (unless that changes tomorrow ;; ) the missing Dex from those is probably insignificant.

I had estimated that Alkyoneus's Bracelets would definately be better with Pallas's Bracelets as probable and Hecatomb Mittens being better then any of them. Now I would guess that Enkelados's Bracelets might be better for 2-handed, at least until tomorrow anyway (I would certainly recommend waiting for the update details before laying out serious coin for anything less then Alky's)

I'm being a grumpy ass hole.

Pay no attention to me.

I will still use them for Rampage, though Ive always mulled over whether being an elf i needed any -dex, esp for a crit based ws >.>

I stopped using AF when I got Pallas.

Two years later, the answer remains the same.

Wow, I stopped using gigas bracelets a long time ago lol...

I was pondering the whole alky vs heca mitts debate the other day and then this thread pops up...weird.

The consensus is that Hecatomb Mittens > Alky (Dex+10 > Str+4) for multi hit crit WS (RR 35%Str mod)? I know Alky > Heca mitts for Steel Cyclone since it's a non crit WS.

I am currently using Alky for RR because I have yet to get Nhands which I am working on, unless Nhands are < Alky for RR.

Heres my RR setup and the situation would be a meripo fighting birds.
WAR RR
Kheten: DMG+6 STR+3

Dex from gear is +23 (would be Dex+33 w/Heca hands)
Str from gear is +46 (would be Str+42 w/Heca hands)

So, all in all, would Nhands be worth (the time/effort, gil if i get them merc.) getting considering the rest of my RR setup?

Even the slight chance that your accuracy would drop below cap is more of a reason to use heca than alky's for any multihit. Acc drops on multihit WS will always result in more of a DoT loss than the str will ever make up for in a DoT gain. I may be talking out of my arse, but I'd wager losing one hit out of 100 WS ws swings (33 KJ/RR uses) because of any acc loss would completely negate any str gain. I'd always hesitate in using gigas line, even if it was in an agg up macro.

They'd kinda be like ares body... nyzul/ein trash/other trash/cap acc lolibri only.

Steel cyclone is a different story... but I find myself using SC less and less even though my gear has gotten better and better for it.

Edited, Sep 11th 2009 10:57am by LordMnementh

KJ is 50% STR WSC not 30%. This means you gain more then just +2D from Alky's.
Going to assume a high STR (dSTR>12) during WS. The -6 DEX is -4.5 accuracy or a 2.25% hit rate difference.

+11 STR WSC
11 * .50 * .83 = 4.56

+11 STR fSTR
11/4 = +2.75

So minimum is a +6D increase, but most likely +7~8D.

Vs Colibri (just for example)

Perdu 96
120 STR
120 * .50 * .83 = 49.8 [49]
120-67=53
(53+4)/4 = 14.25 [14]

Base D is 96+49+14 = 159

With Alky's
131 STR
131 * .50 * .83 = 54.35 [54] (+5 from before)
(131-67) = 64
(64+4)/4 = 17 (+3 from earlier)

Base D is 96+54+17 = 167

167/159 = 1.05, or a 5% increase in damage.

With how the first hit on KJ is 95% accuracy we can try to figure out what the actual effect of -4.5 acc would be (assuming your at ~right at cap during WS).

Average KJ is 3 hits + 20% DA (3.2 hits per WS?)
2.2/3.2 = 68.75% of the hits are effected by the -acc.
4.5 * .6875 = 3.09 actual accuracy penalty.

Of course that is the dirty method, I'm positive one of the better math guys can break it down more precisely (and I'm too lazy to do anything more complicated).

For KJ the +STR bracelets are definitely worth it. Heca ~might~ be better depending on your accuracy. For RR it really depends which crit tier you've hit. You need 25~30 more DEX then the monsters AGI to see good returns on DEX for crits. That is about 97 DEX during WS at Colibri, more at other camps. If you can hit over that number then don't use Alky/Palla's during WS. If your not at that number then don't use them during WS.

Even so, an increase of 4 STR for KJ gives you an extra 3 base damage, not 2. 1 from fSTR and 2 from WSC (50% STR mod don't forget).

for almost all monsters, you know can look up acc caps and you can pretty easily figure out which is better. if not, then you at least have a rough idea on how evasive it is. and what would be one of the first things you would swap out for acc from a "full str" KJ build? alky -> nhands/+1

Its good to see I was off. (or to see how off I was.) At least I knew I was talking out of my ass lol.

I already KJ in way too little acc by default. so...


^this

Seeing the analysis above may have caused alky's to move up in the cost/benefit ratio slot just above foragers mantle and just below blitz ring for me, but that's about it.