Various Scholar Clarifications...Follow

Hi there I am a 75 Sch on Midgard that has been playing the job since it came out got it to 75 quite fast but now I am finding myself in need of a few clarifications of the job. The first one is for the helix spells...I usually use an int setup for these spells with a few pieces for skill like the elemental torque...goliard cuffs for magic acc over viscious mufflers etc. My question for this is would I be more effective using a full int setup? Swapping out the tourque for say an enlightened chain and use the mufflers over goliard and just pump up the int and MAB, or has anyone seen skill play in a factor. My other question is when using helix's and...could put nukes into the mix to but with 5/5 stormsurge merited would the added int from hailstorm prove most effective on all of the helix or would the initial damage boost from matching the helix with its proper elemental storm be more effective? And one last random question that I have been trying...has anyone tried to Magic Burst twice on a skillchain? Alacrity + AF2 boots + thunder IV then do the same with Fire IV? I haven't fought something thats lasted long enough to truly do thorough testing but was wondering if any of you have tried? Thanks in advanced.

~Nazrial / Midgardsormr/ 75RDM 75SCH 52PLD

Bugy answered the helix part already pretty well. The best bet really, is just to try it out for yourself, and see how it fairs, then choose the one you prefer. I personally go with a max MAB/INT build for my helices. if weather is used for something other than cryohelix, then yes, i match the weather to my spells, as the Obi MAB out parses the INT from capped stormsurge.

As for the alacrity > double MB thing, Yes its definitely able to be done. I did it a few times back in the early days of blm when we actually got to magic burst, so I know for a fact that even with out relic boots, you can certainly pull of double bursts.

However I'd do this cautiously and make sure that if I doubled, it would certainly either kill the mob, or be damned near it. Otherwise you might not live too long to enjoy it OR have enough confidence that you know where your enmity is, and that it wouldn't overly pull hate either at all or for too long.

Edited, Jan 30th 2009 3:30pm by xXxNaobixXx

Was this even necessary? This post is more detrimental to the overall forum community than the OP's lack of sticky readings. If you had anything whatsoever to add, then I would be a little more forgiving toward your jackassary.... but so-in speaks the majority.

It isn't an official "cut off" per say. It's simply that, weather gives 10% damage with 1x weather and an extra 15% damage for 2x weather. So going by that, and the amount of damage each INT increases your helix, you can easily deduce that if the helix is ~115, 10% damage increase will be more than +7 INT will add. I'm sure it's not exact, as I didn't actually do the math, but it's a reasonable estimate.

Also, for the MAB, that's definitely expected. +5 MAB is simply +5% to your base damage. +5 INT however, is increasing the "your INT:Mob INT ratio". I would venture, on that aspect, that the 200 damage mark is pretty close to a cut-off of when adding an amount of MAB is equivalent or better to adding the same amount of INT.

Yes.. I see exactly what you did... you proved my last statement in that post to be true... Perhaps if you had realized that I had already added something positive toward this thread, while at the same time encouraging a more acceptable forum habit toward the OP, then you would have thought twice before attempting to be "cute" over the internet.

I haven't gone out and tested the difference in a while, but for my set up 115 seems a bit on the low side. You have to remember that Aquilo's staff also has +5 INT, so you're looking at +12 INT vs. +10% damage.

Kind of makes you wonder why SE didn't tier the helix spells like they did with other elemental spells (ie. Geohelix being weaker than Hydrohelix etc). With the +10 elemental skill +5 INT on Aquilo's Staff, and (potential) +7 INT from Hailstorm, there's almost no reason to cast any other helix spell.

Having said that though, Luminohelix is a lot of fun to cast on those undead Qutrubs in Besieged :)

My numbers disagree. Cryohelix + Hailstorm constantly outdamages most Day + Weather No-int-bonus combos (Sandstorm + earthsday for example).
And this is with only one merit in stormsurge =P

I figure there is a cutoff point where Day + Weather pulls ahead over Hailstorm, but it's probably above 220.

I wasn't talking about resist. Numbers vary greatly depending on the mob. Helixing an EXP mob for 250+ is different from helixing a HNM for 155.

What I am talking about "cutoff" is similar in lieu of Alkalurops VS HQ Ele staves. The cutoff where Alka was better than ELE staves was around 60~80 base damage (Which is low). This is mostly due to % bonuses depending greatly on base damage. INT directly increases base damage; while weather bonuses are a straight % just like staves.

If you want a good example; I posted my numbers on the "How your helix rates" thread against KS99 Behe. Both Firesday+Firestorm and Earthsday+Sandstorm helixes did 159 damage on the dot (Consistent in over 20 casts). Earthsday+Hailstorm Cryohelix did 161.
This was with only 1 merit into stormsurge, and full Helix Merits. Logic dictates the gap will be greater with full Stormsurge.

Same thing happened with Jailer of Fortitude; where Hailstorm+Cryohelix outperformed Windstorm+Windsday+Anemohelix.

To me, I'll default to Hailstorm in Icesday, Earthsday, Windsday, Lightsday and Watersday. I'll use thunderstorm on thundersday mostly for the tiered nukes; and voidstorm for darksday. Firesday is the day I'll use whatever, probably fire or thunder.

I might have exagerated at 220, but the cutoff is greater than 165 for sure.

I wasn't talking about theorycraft; but actual numbers after gear/variables are put in placce.

We JUST did another JoF (With interesting results); now with the merits I have numbers are as follow (Both with Ebu)

Windsday + Windstorm Anemohelix = 184 Damage
Windsday + Hailstorm Cryohelix = 184 Damage

So I belive I found the cutoff for total damage for Stormsurge level 1. More merits, will make Cryo pull ahead another few points.

And this is where it shows you do not understand how base damage works. Blizzard IV has a base of 506, Thunder IV has a base of 541. Adding 12 INT will never let Blizzard IV have a higher base damage than Thunder.


Helixes have the low base of 46 (same as blizzard 1) for all elements. The formula for the BASE damage (before any %) can be simplified to 46 + INT difference. This means any +INT will give a straight, visible advantage.

Now, since we have concluded that 137 is the turning point where BASE*1.2 > (BASE+12)*1.1. The other percentages being the same, 137 will work nicely.

But let's get back to our base formula (46 + dINT). 137 Base damage means 46 base + 91 INT difference. 91 INT difference.... I got 130 total with my current Max Helix setup, that means that I'd need to fight a mob with 39 INT... so a level 40ish mob? Anything higher, helix will pull ahead



Still not convinced? Well let's let a computer do the math for us!


I played with this calculator. I managed to replicate my numbers with it; so it is accuarate. I used the following calculations that encompass my current setup + Full Stormsurge merits to find about what damage needs to be done for double bonuses to beat +12INT:

134 INT (Hailstorm) or 122 (Other non-Hail/Void/Lumin Helix)
Variable INT (Will modify until Double bonus > Hail)
MAB Tier 1
MAB stuff +9
Potency Merits: 5
Ebullience: Yes
HQ staff
Day: No (Hailstorm) Yes (Other non-Hail/Void/Lumin Helix)
Weather: Single
Calculate and Modify Enemy INT as needed.

The Enemy INT needed for Day/Weather to beat Weather/12INT on helixes with a somewhat optimal Helix build was... 17 INT, lower than expected (120 dINT). The damage helix does at this point is that of 284 total damage. MUCH higher than my rough estimate of 220 total damage.

So... if you're fighting Rarabs outside of ronfaure, feel free to use Day + Weather Combo. Otherwise, Hailstorm clearly trumphs everything short of double-weather or Darksday/Voidstorm.



Edited, Feb 4th 2009 7:13pm by Drakonite