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What would you like to see for your job: Red Mage Edition!Follow

#52 Dec 12 2012 at 3:30 AM Rating: Default
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rdmcandie wrote:
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And also, Whoah rdmcandle, I don't give two flying firagas about enfeebling skill or it's potency, I don't care about refresh II, or haste Ii, I never said I wanted to do anything to it. I said that temper should be allowed to be used with subs, but capping at 10% potency(half potency) for /RDM. There's WHM, BLM, SCH, and DRK that all use enfeebles, are you thinking about how it will effect their enfeeble accuracy? I mean again, I don't care about this, all the ideas I proposed are not effected by this at all.


Of you course you don't care about enfeebling or refresh or haste. But just because you don't care does not mean the base mechanics are bad. You asked what I meant by placebo, I told you what it is, Refresh II is a placebo, haste II will be a placebo. Why should temper be allowed to be used as a sub job? So BRD and COR can apply it as well under their MP fountain with no native enhancing skill or MP for that matter.


Yeah but I'm not advocating refresh II, or haste II, you are directing it at me like it's an idea I support. It's not, at all. Temper would be gimped, and available to anyone who subs /RDM. Why should it be any different for BRD and COR, remember like phalanx, temper is self cast. I am sensing some deep seated hatred for other support jobs. I don't how to break this to you but...support jobs do everything a RDM does because RDM is a support job. Debuffing and Buffing be the name of the game. It's a good thing /RDM works so well, what this job really needs are exclusives that bring it front line and allow it to melee to drop plenty of enspell DMG. It needs buffs and debuffs neither job have, and If they do get it, don't apply the same way.

rdmcandie wrote:
/RDM won't be gimped. Adjusting mechanics post level 75 do not alter mechanics below level 75. Meaning the mechanics of /RDM will remain intact, the only change being that RDM mains ability to perform those same tasks is a lot further advanced. However even if /RDM was nerfed, this in no way nerfs the benefits that BRD and COR both provide, the issue with BRD and COR is that they are RDM mains competition, and through utilizing /RDM they completely remove RDM from the equation.


Oh ok, I understand.

rdmcandie wrote:
So ya I am not following your position on BRD and COR being weaker in an offensive role. (assuming you are excluding nuking which I hope you are because that seems to be a one sided observation)


I'm saying RDM should be stronger magically than BRD and COR, being that their buffs are AoE and RDM's are all single target. COR has quick draw, RDM should get feather so it can rock out with increased enspell DMG output, and inflict an enfeeble neither job has. Defensively mirror would increase RDM refresh abilty along with giving a defense increase for party members something bard can mimic with with Minne and Scherzo but at the cost of what.


rdmcandie wrote:
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But I have no idea what to do, you bring up a legitimate problem to the world of RDM. I say...@#%^ the enhancing idea, make the RDM exclusive magic cost double mp subbed. That'll put a major bump in the road for them. Same for haste. Next case


No I bring up one of the three major issues concerning RDM, it is the major issue, it is the one that keeps us from groups. As long as a job such as BRD or COR, or even SCH, or one of your extra BLM's brings /RDM everything RDM main provides to a group is now accessible at an even level. This is the single largest drawback to RDM. Until /RDM is not providing the same utility (on effectively any job to be quite honest) as RDM main, you are just adding sh*t on to sh*t for the sake of it. AKA a placebo.


I'm going to assume this is once again about the old enfeebles, haste II, and refresh II. Things I have no interest in, and am not flipping talking about.

rdmcandie wrote:
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Except somehow sword was severely left behind, I'm just trying to balance the job properly, I know it needs a major defensive boost to withstand close range fighting for end game.


Sword skill is fine, as is dagger skill, our sword options are great, our dagger options not so much. I don't get where severely behind comes from to be honest with you. As for being more defensive RDM is not designed to stand in melee range for extended period of time, it never was and it never should be. (exception RDM/NIN tanking but that should be obvious). RDM is designed to buff the party, debuff the opponent, and then. If applicable enter melee range and attack the mob, or stand back and nuke the mob. In some cases you can get away with meleeing for a period of time and then retreating during TP moves to nuke a couple times, and repeat.


It comes from giving RDM all kinds of Magical enfeebles, nukes, curing plenty reasons to be back lines and not until recently taking the time to apply enfeebles that can be applied with the sword. The enspells before introducing temper were widely insufficient. And refresh + convert completely minimizes a need to be back lines at all, RDM takes a picture with sword and shield in hand for job description, don't tell me it's not meant to be in melee range. So your wanting to be back lines is wholly your decision, if you're gonna do that, come BLM/RDM for some good ol enfeeble back lines action that you so comfortably enjoy.

rdmcandie wrote:
This is why RDM melee is often frowned upon. You are not a DD, you do not have the staying power nor the damage output to warrant constant melee range attacks. You are also not a nuker, you have the ability to nuke but they are relatively under powered and inaccurate. RDM Damage is supplemental, and it is non uniform, in some fights melee damage is more useful to a group, in other elemental. These situations are what define good RDM's from bad.


Not trying to make RDM a DD, not at all. Just giving it a unique flavor, allowing it to be frontlines, through new spells, job traits, and abilities. You're the one who said RDM needs magic accuracy bonus, I agree they should give RDM several tiers of that kind of job trait. And yeah, feather also changes RDM offensive so if it needs to deal more elemental DMG than melee DMG you can cast feather + enspell which is double ATK rounds so more enspell DMG at the cost of melee DMG output. While inhibiting tp, can't get anymore versatile than that.

rdmcandie wrote:
As for your triple cast idea, it is bad and you should feel bad.


Oh no buddy, this job trait is poorly devised but still a really cool trait for RDM to have under its belt. Even if tier IV nukes stay could increase magical input by giving it 1/3rd chance of activation. I'm 30 forum comments in, and setting new precedent. I'll give you it doesn't work now, but only because it requires mathematical computation I myself simply have no patience for.


Edited, Dec 12th 2012 4:37am by Evokerofsorts

Edited, Dec 12th 2012 4:38am by Evokerofsorts
#53 Dec 12 2012 at 10:18 AM Rating: Default
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You still haven't tackled the underlying issue with your skill fetish, though. Just how much would RDM's enfeebling skill make a difference? Because Arts and all the gear those other jobs bring to the table isn't leaving them flapping in the wind, either. 1% per point? 1% per 5 points? 5% per 10 points? C'mon, marvel us with this genius scheme, because SE will surely take it. Or, RDM gets Slow III at 55-60%, no fancy mechanic tinkering done, everyone else is stuck at 29% Slow I. End result, RDM still the superior slower by a significant margin. Now let's just let it land on mobs and affect the TP-move-as-attacks ones. Not exactly as sh*t pile or broken as you wanna exaggerate there. Certainly easier for the poor intern they have locked in their basement to do, too.


Actually its not that hard to come up with a base point to start from. You take the current effect at max value, divide it into the level 75 skill and get your growth value. For example with Slow 1.

276/29 = 10 points per % (9.5 really but SE prefers to play with whole numbers in calculations)

You then apply the benefit to level 75+ So you now have: (lets assume 424 skill)

Skill-276/10+29 =
424-276/10+29 = 43.8%

Which is roughly a 50% increase to strength. As for everyone else being stuck at 29% that again isn't true WHM SCH and BLM are all capable enfeeblers and all attain skill past level 75 all would benefit from an increase to enfeebling potency. RDM however would gain the largest native benefit. At the end of the day with gear and skill set included RDM will be on top, followed by SCH, followed by WHM/BLM/DRK.

As for Enfeebles utility, SE has already announced they plan on adjusting the mechanics on how they effect the mobs. Paralyze is currently being tested (according to the new big wig) as being able to interrupt TP moves, as it does Normal moves.

If you want to fix the job you have to fix the mechanics, adding sh*t on to the top does not do that. Making new placebo's does not do that. Enhancing is worse for it namely due to the lack of needing the skill of MACC, but Enfeebling is in the same boat, @75 WHM BLM were not landing enfeebles @ capped potency, @99 they are T2's do not grow enough to compete with this, and havign the other half of RDM group utility available to sub job use is killing the job.

RDM needs to be mechanically the best at something, considering its skill superiority in Enhancing and Enfeebling, these avenues should be the ones pursued.

But by all means argue for new spells and abilities that are ultimately nonessential to group play. Watch as the invite rate soars when you get 20% haste II, while BRD's are still capping Magic Haste /RDM (or /WHM). Add a new line of enfeebles, make them crazy potent, and watch as no one cares because enfeebles don't actually do anything in their present form. Then watch as the NIN crowd consumes itself in anger when they can no longer land any of their spells and require that SE add more tiers for them.

Or you could just adjust the mechanics that effect all jobs with native skill positively to provide separation at the top end of the very jobs that compete with one another, and to eliminate the subjob canundrum SE created when they moved the cap to 99.

Quote:
Meanwhile, this whole, "I came up with the Healing Magic adjustment!" line is getting old. Had I the motivation, I'm pretty sure I could dig up posts circa early-ToAU with angry WHMs wanting their skill to affect cures so they'd better fit into merit parties. But hey, maybe my memory is fuzzy after 6 years. You totally thought of something nobody nowhere else ever thought of AND it got translated to Japanese. Genius.


Awww dont be jealous I am sure one of the dozens of gimmicks you have come up with over the years will get noticed too. Me though, I got in when the getting was good. All those old ToAU grumbles were lost in places like this, I posted on the new (at the time) official forums. You could be right, but they copy and pasted my idea, however instead of a 50% increase, they gave it about a 40% increase. Id imagine something similar done here, since it is the same formula.




(as for your Whoa whoa whoa sh*t. I said people like you: not you specifically. Granted I also said asked for Cure 5 or a Cure 5 equivalent, which you did and ill happily dig through the trenches and find your little post about some cure spell that was like a hybrid regen/cure.)





Edited, Dec 12th 2012 11:28am by rdmcandie
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#54 Dec 12 2012 at 11:44 AM Rating: Good
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EVO wrote:
Except somehow sword was severely left behind


It's exactly what a level B should be at. People only believe that sword was left behind because they want to see uber DD numbers.

EVO wrote:
I'm just trying to balance the job properly


We all agree to this statement, you're just going about it in a different way.

EVO wrote:
RDM doesn't necessarily need it's high DMG nukes, it needs fast casting nukes.


RDM does not have high DMG nukes in reference to tier V and BLM only spells. This is no different than back in the day when RDM had tier III and BLM had tier IV. Also, RDM already has quick casting time, it's called fast cast and it's 24/7.

EVO wrote:
but then my triple cast would be too powerful


Not if you make it a timed ability. Let fast cast and /SCH do the rest.
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#55 Dec 14 2012 at 7:43 AM Rating: Default
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Well, I don't need to see high numbers. I just would like for the party to be able to tell whose doing what. Anybody can cast an enfeeble, cure, or nuke, certain jobs have amazing spells that are job specific and truly stand out. I think if you bring a RDM to a fight, it should have something covered that everyonen is happy to have them over. This sounds so vague, if enspells are really rdms best spells, they should get abilities that increase it's prowess, make me stand out from a war, or PLD with a sword, I know B is pretty good skill but so what, this job doesn't get any real reason to use it unless its soloing.

Throw rdm a freaking bone. I gotta thank you guys for cutting into feather, because it went from a simple concept to something legit,ate, and worth having for RDM, anybody wanna help me scream this spell at the development team? I heard the new head of ffxi, actually reads these forums now.
#56 Dec 14 2012 at 8:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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RDM is in desperate need to overhauls to spells, abilities, traits, food, and equipment, but I've recently come the conclusion that RDM's biggest enemy right now is game play: there simply aren't enough events that cater to the job's potential. Everything we'd want to participate in requires the class to play like a pale imitation of some other class.
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#57 Dec 14 2012 at 8:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Evokerofsorts wrote:
Well, I don't need to see high numbers. I just would like for the party to be able to tell whose doing what. Anybody can cast an enfeeble, cure, or nuke, certain jobs have amazing spells that are job specific and truly stand out. I think if you bring a RDM to a fight, it should have something covered that everyonen is happy to have them over. This sounds so vague, if enspells are really rdms best spells, they should get abilities that increase it's prowess, make me stand out from a war, or PLD with a sword, I know B is pretty good skill but so what, this job doesn't get any real reason to use it unless its soloing.

Throw rdm a freaking bone. I gotta thank you guys for cutting into feather, because it went from a simple concept to something legit,ate, and worth having for RDM, anybody wanna help me scream this spell at the development team? I heard the new head of ffxi, actually reads these forums now.


Don't get me wrong, we all agree with your concept. People just disagree with the "best" way of accomplishing it. That will never change.
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#58 Jan 07 2013 at 5:15 AM Rating: Default
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Does enspell effect enfeeble accuracy? I know they weaken a mob to an opposite element does it work with that, I know it's no point if someone is doing a table of enfeebles, but I am curious to know, anybody considered some kind of bonus to enfeeble when hitting target with enspell?
#59 Jan 07 2013 at 4:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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T1s do nothing regarding any kind of other-magic MACC. T2s slightly low the resistance of an element related to the enfeeble in the strength/weakness chart, but to no meaningful degree and a currently insipid manner. Ex: Wanna make an ice mob more vulnerable to fire? Hit it with Enblizzard! Derp, enjoy the Enblizzards hitting for 0-3 while your mages don't noticed a difference and you just feed TP...

Otherwise, tying some kind of elemental boon to your active enspell isn't a foreign idea. Some think it should work whether you melee or not. I believe such a trait should only function if you're wielding a sword or dagger to rival the functionality and casting superiority of staves. Without such a caveat, the job's martial side just plunges further into the pooper. I know I've also bounced the idea of matching element boosting an inflicted enfeeble akin to DNC steps. Make it a progressively harder chance like TH, but whacking a mob with Enstone and Slow should slowly creep its slow percentage up if it lives long enough for you to care about such. Or you could up the tic damage of a SCH's active Helix or whatever.

Main problem with RDM is while there are some simple fixes it needs, it needs some complex work to make it appealing, too. It's just hard to see that happening with SE favoring other jobs for given roles, a history of ideas we've proposed being added elsewhere, and a dash of people who delight and support in RDM's misery due to the past. Maybe one day Matsui will actually look at the job, but I fear they trust the census a bit too much regarding whether or not it needs help.
#60 Jan 12 2013 at 7:11 PM Rating: Default
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So what's everyone's opinion on the new proposed changes for elemental spells?
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#61 Jan 12 2013 at 8:49 PM Rating: Good
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Welcomed changes, will definitely make RDM nuking better. However it's a better buff for BLM and SCH.

We'll have to see how well Fast Cast and dINT will be implemented.
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#62 Jan 13 2013 at 6:15 AM Rating: Good
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Ditto. Sounds nice, but then it'll be nice for everybody, which basically leaves RDM in the same place.
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#63 Jan 13 2013 at 7:39 AM Rating: Default
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True, but you know the routine, we have to find the "bright side" on updates. In this case, since it helps everyone, maybe we can be seen as a better alternative for nuking.

He mentioned enfeebling, but he didn't state any details. I'm curious on how they will attack that.
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#64 Jan 13 2013 at 2:33 PM Rating: Good
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It's one of those things I'd have to get my hands on to fairly judge, but if I were to raise an immediate concern, it'd be further marrying RDM to /SCH for the simple sake of Elemental skill via Dark Arts. Then maybe a dash of TP feed concern if we maintain the 10% TP a nuke paradigm.

I dunno, if SE wants nuking to be better for us, I'd like to see a bump to B or B+ skill and maybe native Occult Accumen with my ever-hopeful desire to see a trait that grants enspell element Affinity+ when main-handing a sword or dagger. That way we could at least build TP from afar and later open some SCs once harder content isn't so much about zergs.
#65 Jan 14 2013 at 10:02 AM Rating: Default
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One enfeebling change has already been announced, or at least the idea has been pitched by Matsui to the Devs (or maybe vice versa), and that is to allow Paralyze to have an effect on TP moves. But they still do not have any ideas for slow (come on TP gain reduction).

As for this adjustment, when looking just at RDM it is a nice buff, 6 second cast times and 30 second recasts are going to be nice with our fast cast and haste, its going to let RDM put out a lot of spells pretty quickly and the damage modifiers mean we aren't really just married to 1 maybe 2 spells. However when you compare to BLM and SCH it doesn't really close the gap much. The only ground really made up is a small % improvement in the T4>T5 damage gap (based on cast times/recasts and base damage). But SCH and BLM will still be slinging better nukes.


Sadly it isn't going to help RDM get into groups, but it will help us in solo/lowman stuff, simply by killing a bit quicker.




Edited, Jan 14th 2013 11:04am by rdmcandie
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#66 Jan 14 2013 at 3:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Checked the OF for giggles and saw the Enspell thread. Oh dear. -.-

So many thoughts, but I guess ideas would rather get lost to dick waving.
#67 Jan 15 2013 at 8:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Seriha wrote:
Checked the OF for giggles and saw the Enspell thread. Oh dear. -.-

So many thoughts, but I guess ideas would rather get lost to dick waving.


The Enspell thread was a rant thread to begin with, so I never took it seriously. To be honest, it's hard to keep a serious outlook on the OF in any circumstance.

We actually don't have the worst enspells. While PLD has the best one in of itself, they don't have the ability to enhance it with +Enspell dmg gear via Hollow Earring and Chimeric Fluret. They're also stuck with sword 'n board while RDM can go /NIN for dual wield.

Our Enspell IIs are crap no matter how you slice it, but I prefer to forget they ever existed instead of hopelessly trying to fix them.
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#68 Jan 15 2013 at 12:03 PM Rating: Default
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Seriha wrote:
Checked the OF for giggles and saw the Enspell thread. Oh dear. -.-

So many thoughts, but I guess ideas would rather get lost to dick waving.


That was a fun thread!

There were some good ideas, but sadly most people seem to still think damage is our way out. Damage means sh*t really for RDM, unless we swing Blizzard 4s on the end of our swords. Some type of utility is what we need, we need to be wanted because we offer something beneficial, not just because we are another of a dozen DD options.

I like the +Affinity you mentioned above, but I would rather see Elemental Debuffs on the enspells myself, debuffing a mob so 10 people benefit is always going to be better than just RDM doing a bit better. We are a support class, without the ability to really support...it makes me a sad panda.
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#69 Jan 15 2013 at 6:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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When I was reading that thread and the logic came up that basically every other tier up of a spell was an improvement, while T2s basically bucked that norm, I thought to myself, "You know, T2s feel more like they should be called Defrost, Derasp, etc.." in the vein that if enfeebling was their intent, they could maintain their meager damage option with the -MEVA (removing the quirky cross-element relationship) on top of maybe the -stats.

But even in more in general regarding Enspells, I know myself and others have bounced the idea in the past the specific element bestows a specific bonus not unlike the +Affinity, just more specialized. Enaero would be +Subtle Blow, Enfire +ATK, Enstone +DEF, Enblizzard +MATK, Enwater +MDEF, Enthunder +Crit. Specific values probably couldn't just pull off the direct enspell damage offered, but your skill would at least be some kind of reference point. Each should at least emphasize a particular "role" you'd choose with your engagement at the time, where my thought on the Enaero aspect should be that our TP feed should be very minimal.

Overall, I'm trying to look past the game we know now with what's been hinted of the future. If zergs go the way of the dodo (for the majority of fights) while enemy TP moves and their use become more sensible, the endgame environment can look a lot different. And while some RDMs may look to play more of a nuker with the proposed elemental magic tweaks, I still don't want to see melee shoved aside entirely and will always continue to brainstorm on methods to help stop the whole, "Not in my party!" mentality that's plagued the job since forever.

But even in a broader scope, I'd certainly like to see Enspells/Sambas/Weapon effects play nice with each other. The fact they don't hurts /DNC as a sub for us, and for those who have Excalibur, it's effect becomes a juggling debate between it and enspells.

Edited, Jan 15th 2013 8:01pm by Seriha
#70 Jan 16 2013 at 12:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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rdmcandie wrote:
Seriha wrote:
Checked the OF for giggles and saw the Enspell thread. Oh dear. -.-

So many thoughts, but I guess ideas would rather get lost to dick waving.


That was a fun thread!

There were some good ideas, but sadly most people seem to still think damage is our way out. Damage means sh*t really for RDM, unless we swing Blizzard 4s on the end of our swords. Some type of utility is what we need, we need to be wanted because we offer something beneficial, not just because we are another of a dozen DD options.

I like the +Affinity you mentioned above, but I would rather see Elemental Debuffs on the enspells myself, debuffing a mob so 10 people benefit is always going to be better than just RDM doing a bit better. We are a support class, without the ability to really support...it makes me a sad panda.


That's the issue however. Have we ever been a support job, or was that what we were regulated to? The only spell that I could truly call a support spell was Dia III. Refresh and Haste were really the only spells that deemed us as a support job back in the day. Nowadays, we don't really have anything that drives us into a solid role.

And I believe this particular middle-ground we are at right now is very important. It's a point where many RDMs particularly on this forum has been wanting to achieve, striking a fair balance between Melee and Magic. Personally, I want to keep this balance, even if it doesn't lead us into a solid role. I don't want to be like SCH where the only thing that matters is how good your Embrava is.
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#71 Jan 16 2013 at 8:39 AM Rating: Default
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HeroMystic wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
Seriha wrote:
Checked the OF for giggles and saw the Enspell thread. Oh dear. -.-

So many thoughts, but I guess ideas would rather get lost to dick waving.


That was a fun thread!

There were some good ideas, but sadly most people seem to still think damage is our way out. Damage means sh*t really for RDM, unless we swing Blizzard 4s on the end of our swords. Some type of utility is what we need, we need to be wanted because we offer something beneficial, not just because we are another of a dozen DD options.

I like the +Affinity you mentioned above, but I would rather see Elemental Debuffs on the enspells myself, debuffing a mob so 10 people benefit is always going to be better than just RDM doing a bit better. We are a support class, without the ability to really support...it makes me a sad panda.


That's the issue however. Have we ever been a support job, or was that what we were regulated to? The only spell that I could truly call a support spell was Dia III. Refresh and Haste were really the only spells that deemed us as a support job back in the day. Nowadays, we don't really have anything that drives us into a solid role.

And I believe this particular middle-ground we are at right now is very important. It's a point where many RDMs particularly on this forum has been wanting to achieve, striking a fair balance between Melee and Magic. Personally, I want to keep this balance, even if it doesn't lead us into a solid role. I don't want to be like SCH where the only thing that matters is how good your Embrava is.



I think yes we have been a support job, perhaps not in the technical sense of active support, but we have been a support player at least ever since I played. RDM has alwaqys been that job that can fit in to just about any role. While RDM may not actively support in the sense of say a BRD or a COR, we provide support in a different way.

Or at least we did before Convert went to subjob, and SE embraced the Zerg mentality and went with it.

If you look at a lot of the relevant support buffs, RDM could provide those similarly, from Evasion+ to ACC+, unfortunately things like Gravity 2 (-40EVA or up to a 20% increase to Hit Rate) and Blind are coin flips in whether they are immune or not. Of course thats not even getting into the cluster@#%^ of G2 Merits and the inability to really take Blind II at all as a spell.

Abyssea kind of gutted RDM as a support role though, its inabilities stack up faster than its abilities, and it has had a great impact on the job, ie. it is no longer deemed relevant in content.

Thats why id rather see more emphasis put towards making RDM a desirable option because what it can do...if needed, and what it provides otherwise while waiting for that need to open up. It doesn't need to be a long list of buffs or debuffs. Simply giving RDM the ability to increase group productiveness (such as En-Elemental Debuffs, or something in that similar sense EN-Trait) while waiting for a WHM to get low on MP or BLM to need to /heal. Enfeebles not being immune on everything would also help a lot, as most of RDM's buffs actually are tied to enfeebles.

Although I think in order to reestablish RDM in a similar role it had at the 75 cap, it would require the restriction of convert to subjobs...and I think that one would piss a lot of people off.


|I don't know Id rather compete with BRD/DNC/COR for a party slot, instead of with 10 DD's, or be pigeon holed into a singular role again.
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#72 Jan 16 2013 at 3:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Locking or even nerfing Convert as a sub would change nothing, really. MP efficiency for other jobs has improved a lot since the 75 days. And while I get not wanting a giant list of debuffs to run through, SE could still pony up and introduce mixed spells that aren't compromised in potency. But like with Additional Effect interaction, the log would need to reflect multiples landing simultaneously and not just one to avoid questions of resists/immunity. Remember, time to be diverse has always been our enemy.

Edited, Jan 16th 2013 4:57pm by Seriha
#73 Jan 17 2013 at 5:39 PM Rating: Decent
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HeroMystic wrote:

Our Enspell IIs are crap no matter how you slice it, but I prefer to forget they ever existed instead of hopelessly trying to fix them.


I would rather fix them. They are subpar, but not nearly as much as people are making them out to be. Just changing the +enhance to be at casting would be a great enhancement. As awesome as dual-wielding EII would be, I do believe that would be too much of a boost. I would rather have the second hand be a samba or some other enhancement.

Maybe create a Tier III that gives some sort of buff/debuff and only works on the off-hand?
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#74 Jan 17 2013 at 7:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
As awesome as dual-wielding EII would be, I do believe that would be too much of a boost.

Why does everyone keep insisting on this?

If the problem is the amount of damage tier 2 caps at stacking the deck for a Dual Wielding RDM, simply cap the damage lower when Dual Wielding--at half the single-wield potential, just to throw out an idea.

And Sambas should exist in parallel with En-spells, not either/or. They need to stop pissing about and address that.

Edited, Jan 17th 2013 5:04pm by SunriderRagnarok
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#75 Jan 18 2013 at 5:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, like I said, additional effects need to play nicer with one another.

And I'm not really sold on a fully powered T2 being dual-wieldable as the end of the world, especially in party settings. Our innately lower ATK values are still a concern, with that lesser WS potential. Attack rate, thus TP gain, is also inhibited by casting, albeit offset a bit FC and Temper and DA/TA gear. Basically, that added damage would help compensate a bit. Sure, we'd munch through fodder mobs more merrily, but are really worrying about fodder or things that matter, that'd likely involve MDB and resist issues anyway?

There's a part of me that hopes with SE adjusting nukes that they also go through the game and adjust every mob so elemental strengths/weaknesses mean more for us. Right now, it's pretty much Thunder and Blizzard or GTFO unless the mob is deliberately resistant to both. Situations where Thunder would do like 0.25x damage while Aero would do 1.75x on an Stone-y mob would be welcome by me, nuke or enspell.
#76 Jan 18 2013 at 7:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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Seriha wrote:
And I'm not really sold on a fully powered T2 being dual-wieldable as the end of the world, especially in party settings. Our innately lower ATK values are still a concern, with that lesser WS potential. Attack rate, thus TP gain, is also inhibited by casting, albeit offset a bit FC and Temper and DA/TA gear. Basically, that added damage would help compensate a bit. Sure, we'd munch through fodder mobs more merrily, but are really worrying about fodder or things that matter, that'd likely involve MDB and resist issues anyway?
Ditto. I was simply offering a real compromise, as opposed to "doesn't work on any additional hits or off-hand," which is utter garbage.

A tier 2 friendly to multi-hit/Dual Wield, and with tier 1's formula, would have set us up nicely to fill a "magic DPS" niche.

That is, until they created Rune Fencer to fill that niche instead.
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#77 Jan 18 2013 at 11:19 AM Rating: Default
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I still don't think damage is the answer. I just do not see giving RDM more damage solving the issues with the jobs desirability. Unless we overnight become comparable to top end DD's, we will still be over looked. I agree that Enspells and Sambas (and the like) should play nicer together, but I don't think damage increases will help us in any way, I firmly believe that adding utility to them to boost those around us ability to perform is something that will benefit RDM more in terms of being desired, whether that comes in the form of -STATs like Elemental debuffs, or enhanced traits, I believe it would serve us better than focusing on how to enhance RDM damage, and RDM damage alone.
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#78 Jan 18 2013 at 11:44 AM Rating: Good
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No, damage isn't the answer, and I wouldn't support it as being a fix-all... but it is still a component of En-spells, and thus should not be marginalized or overlooked.

Besides, it never hurts to augment means of killing, even if RDM is still only limited to fodder.
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#79 Jan 18 2013 at 10:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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While it's easy to say what we offer in support should make up for what we lack in damage, we've basically got a decade of our lacking damage not even being a factor to support, and this is ultimately tied to the risk:reward aspect of it. Losing one of your alliance's support jobs to nasty AoEs while also bringing greater risk has just been too much of a burden for our limited support options. This is why I won't argue against improved damage, but I'll also mark it as the lazy solution.

Plus there's the part of me that feels anyone who's played an extensive amount of time on BLU and can objectively look to RDM as a brother/sister hybrid realizing that RDM can be better in its own ways. Now, some may fear this will lead into continued job overlap, but we're basically past the point of that never happening with 20 jobs and 2 more on the way that theoretically dabble in venues RDMs have wanted to play in the past. The overlap can happen as long as unique things still get added, too. And personally, I'm not against MNKs or WARs getting more utility options to stave off the whole, "But then only people would play RDM!" line of thinking. Mind you, that's still a long way off when you consider other aspects like gear, WS selection, and innate skills. Evasion tanks we are not, for example.
#80 Jan 19 2013 at 7:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Seriha wrote:
This is why I won't argue against improved damage, but I'll also mark it as the lazy solution.
Just because the job is RDM, damage is probably the one lazy solution the devs would go out of their way to avoid... if they ever bothered pursuing solutions.
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#81 Jan 19 2013 at 7:56 AM Rating: Default
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SunriderRagnarok wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
As awesome as dual-wielding EII would be, I do believe that would be too much of a boost.

Why does everyone keep insisting on this?

If the problem is the amount of damage tier 2 caps at stacking the deck for a Dual Wielding RDM, simply cap the damage lower when Dual Wielding--at half the single-wield potential, just to throw out an idea.

And Sambas should exist in parallel with En-spells, not either/or. They need to stop pissing about and address that.

Edited, Jan 17th 2013 5:04pm by SunriderRagnarok


I just played for the first time in a long time and my Enspell II's were capping out at 58 with no additional enhancing gear. I can only imagine the damage with dual wielding, enhancing calculation on cast and a decent DD build.
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#82 Jan 19 2013 at 8:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
SunriderRagnarok wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
As awesome as dual-wielding EII would be, I do believe that would be too much of a boost.

Why does everyone keep insisting on this?

If the problem is the amount of damage tier 2 caps at stacking the deck for a Dual Wielding RDM, simply cap the damage lower when Dual Wielding--at half the single-wield potential, just to throw out an idea.

And Sambas should exist in parallel with En-spells, not either/or. They need to stop pissing about and address that.

Edited, Jan 17th 2013 5:04pm by SunriderRagnarok


I just played for the first time in a long time and my Enspell II's were capping out at 58 with no additional enhancing gear. I can only imagine the damage with dual wielding, enhancing calculation on cast and a decent DD build.
I'm more interesting in knowing just which DD classes would be genuinely threatened by it.


Edited, Jan 19th 2013 6:42am by SunriderRagnarok
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#83 Jan 19 2013 at 8:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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SunriderRagnarok wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
I just played for the first time in a long time and my Enspell II's were capping out at 58 with no additional enhancing gear. I can only imagine the damage with dual wielding, enhancing calculation on cast and a decent DD build.
I'm more interesting in knowing just which DD classes would be genuinely threatened by it.


Edited, Jan 19th 2013 6:42am by SunriderRagnarok


They wouldn't. The fact that we have to recast the spells, as well as having a resist rate vs mobs that matter kills the non-existant overpowering notion.

Nevermind that RDM DD gear, while it has vastly improved, is still left to be desired when you compare it to jobs like DRK which bathes excellent DD gear.
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SunriderRagnarok wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
SunriderRagnarok wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
As awesome as dual-wielding EII would be, I do believe that would be too much of a boost.

Why does everyone keep insisting on this?

If the problem is the amount of damage tier 2 caps at stacking the deck for a Dual Wielding RDM, simply cap the damage lower when Dual Wielding--at half the single-wield potential, just to throw out an idea.

And Sambas should exist in parallel with En-spells, not either/or. They need to stop pissing about and address that.

Edited, Jan 17th 2013 5:04pm by SunriderRagnarok


I just played for the first time in a long time and my Enspell II's were capping out at 58 with no additional enhancing gear. I can only imagine the damage with dual wielding, enhancing calculation on cast and a decent DD build.
I'm more interesting in knowing just which DD classes would be genuinely threatened by it.


Edited, Jan 19th 2013 6:42am by SunriderRagnarok


They wont be threatened by it, but it doesn't justify it either. I would rather have that energy put toward another aspect of RDM.
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#85 Jan 19 2013 at 9:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
SunriderRagnarok wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
SunriderRagnarok wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
As awesome as dual-wielding EII would be, I do believe that would be too much of a boost.

Why does everyone keep insisting on this?

If the problem is the amount of damage tier 2 caps at stacking the deck for a Dual Wielding RDM, simply cap the damage lower when Dual Wielding--at half the single-wield potential, just to throw out an idea.

And Sambas should exist in parallel with En-spells, not either/or. They need to stop pissing about and address that.

Edited, Jan 17th 2013 5:04pm by SunriderRagnarok


I just played for the first time in a long time and my Enspell II's were capping out at 58 with no additional enhancing gear. I can only imagine the damage with dual wielding, enhancing calculation on cast and a decent DD build.
I'm more interesting in knowing just which DD classes would be genuinely threatened by it.


Edited, Jan 19th 2013 6:42am by SunriderRagnarok


They wont be threatened by it, but it doesn't justify it either. I would rather have that energy put toward another aspect of RDM.
The fact that no one is threatened by it means there is room to move forward martially without upsetting balance, which is great justification.

Just what non-physical aspect are you hoping to see promoted, and just why must it come at the cost of both fixing the tier 2 formula and applying mulit-hit?


Edited, Jan 19th 2013 7:41am by SunriderRagnarok
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#86 Jan 19 2013 at 9:54 AM Rating: Default
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Sun wrote:
The fact that no one is threatened by it means there is room to move forward martially without upsetting balance, which is great justification.


Just because no one is threatened by RDM having access to katanas or summons doesn't justify any additional effort in implementing the aforesaid changes.

Sun wrote:
Just what non-physical aspect are you hoping to see promoted, and just why must it come at the cost of both fixing the tier 2 formula and applying mulit-hit?


Almalieque wrote:
I would rather fix them. They are subpar, but not nearly as much as people are making them out to be. Just changing the +enhance to be at casting would be a great enhancement. As awesome as dual-wielding EII would be, I do believe that would be too much of a boost. I would rather have the second hand be a samba or some other enhancement.

Maybe create a Tier III that gives some sort of buff/debuff and only works on the off-hand?



Edit: Maybe not "only" on off-hand, but in the case when paired with Tier II, will be overwritten.

Edited, Jan 19th 2013 5:58pm by Almalieque
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#87 Jan 21 2013 at 11:41 PM Rating: Good
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Situations where Thunder would do like 0.25x damage while Aero would do 1.75x on an Stone-y mob would be welcome by me, nuke or enspell.


I played X before I played XI and I thought for sure XI would work a little something like this from the word go. I also half expected that something like Fire IV on a Bomb.... Oooops!

I think a big problem with RDM is that everything we offered was handed out like candy to every other job. And it's not that by itself that's the problem. It's that you can't make a RDM a pro at anything any of the other jobs are supposed to be a pro at because you will destroy the player base's will to play that job. If RDM heals as well as a WHM, nukes as well as a BLM, Enfeebles, Buffs, etc, there'd be no point to play any of the other jobs because with just a quick gear swap, in the field, RDM is a full fledged Warrior who suddenly changes to life support in an instant with the only real limiting factor being the sub job.

RDM basically HAS to have unique little things of its own to set it apart from the other jobs. Unique RDM only things + a little bit of everything anyone else can do = RDM.

The En- line of spells, while unique, are for all intents and purposes nothing but supplemental melee damage. It's melee damage in a different form. It makes up for our lack of Attack stat to some degree on normal melee swings while offering nothing to boost WS damage. They tried to do something a little different with the second tier of the spells, but I don't think they went far enough to make them something that a party wants. So the En- line is unique, but it's not a unique spell that attracts group play attention.

This is really the problem with a large majority of our unique spells. They don't attract group play attention.

There was a time, that a simple spell like Refresh or Haste, gave RDM a spot in pretty much any alliance. There was a bottle neck of sorts for spells like these. There was no Sub Job Haste/Refresh as an option. That bottle neck is gone.

The enfeeble meta-game needs fixing and RDM needs something unique to offer group play.

They could add a spell that boosts a job trait. A job trait pre chosen. Cast said spell on a Warrior and the Warrior gets 10% more DA. Cast the same exact spell on a Thief and they get 5% Triple Attack, or on a BLM and they get 10MAB. They could figure the math for how much of the job trait it has to be for it to be balanced across the board, choose the job trait and have it all hard coded. Make it a 3min recast timer, Fast Cast will bring it down (Casting on yourself would boost Fast Cast beyond the current cap), and make it last 5mins on the target. The numbers might need adjusting, but the idea as I see it, would be to intentionally try to limit being able to maintain the spell to only 5'ish people, including yourself. If you can only maintain the spell on 4 other people, you need to choose who it will best help, and you can't rely on just one RDM for a whole alliance to get this buff, meaning the door is open for at least 3 RDMs per alliance. This will help increase demand for the RDM.

So if you invite a RDM you get a half DD (melee or nuke) or a hybrid nuke/cure support, or a 90% cure focused RDM that can only perform 60% of what a WHM could do...

PLUS a unique support that could add up to a total of 5% more TA on a thief, 10% more DA on a warrior, -20 delay on a MNK, and 10% more MAB on a BLM. The damage of the THF, WAR, MNK and BLM will all go up, and it will be the players demanding for the RDM to be in the party and not just accepting the RDM in the party because there's nothing else. And because of the nature of the cast cycle on the spell, it's not something that benefits from job stacking nothing but RDMs. If they make the spell relatively cheap, and relatively fast casting, it would more or less allow a RDM to do what they do now, with the added support this spell would provide.

In the end though, I feel pretty confident that to get RDM more desirable, it's going to take something unique and castable on others or a serious fixing of the enfeeble meta-game.


Edited, Jan 21st 2013 10:45pm by Torzak
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#88 Jan 22 2013 at 7:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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See that's the problem with the current setup for events: they cater to jobs uniquely suited for specialized roles.

Then, in order to give RDM a place at the table, you have to give it a special trick in order to shoehorn it in, the after-effect likely being having to go back and re-adjust other jobs to compensate, again, and again, and again.


Take RDM's greatest strength, the power to stand on it's own, and put it in events where the RDMs can not only exploit that strength, but be rewarded by it. I'm not talking the piddling, conditional works-here-only dung like Campaign or Besiged, but Salvage-grade rewards, Dynamis-grade, things of that nature.

RDM, and jobs like it, need endgame that allows it to do what it does best, which is be a bloody hybrid. Until S-E does that, it'll be a never-ending battle for scraps at others' tables.

Edited, Jan 22nd 2013 5:45am by SunriderRagnarok
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#89 Jan 22 2013 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
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you have to give it a special trick in order to shoehorn it in, the after-effect likely being having to go back and re-adjust other jobs to compensate, again, and again, and again.


I don't really think that giving everyone something to "shoehorn" them in is so bad. It's kind of what wow does, the problem with wow is that every expansion they add new abilities to pretty much every single class, make adjustments to how stats scale, sometimes change how bosses stats scale, etc all while trying to balance between both pve and pvp. At that point there's so many variables it ends up taking a while through the expansion to get balance right.

FFXI doesn't have a big element of that, and that's pvp balance. Giving everyone their so called "shoehorn" ability/spell, is almost exactly what the game has to have for every job to be valuable. You don't want to create a situation where job stacking is the best way; bring 3 of this job as a tank, bring 9 of this, this, or this job for DD with one exception, a thief, maybe. The rest is support.

Every job needs something that buffs the rest of the alliance/party to some degree. And those abilities/spells all need to not stack with eachother in the sense that you don't want it setup such that if you bring 3 DRKs, your whole alliance's attack is increased by 10% * 3 DRK. In this way, if you bring one of everything, your alliance is the strongest that it can be. And if you bring 9 best geared DRKs, your alliance is sitting pretty low on the totem pole, no matter how flavor of the month DRK is.
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#90 Jan 22 2013 at 7:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Putting things on timers hurts us, and this isn't exactly me just looking at the old solo (H)NM with disdain for how it likely influenced our status now. Every time I see someone say Refresh/Convert defined us and that it should be locked or nerfed when subbed, I have to roll my eyes a little. The first is the context that a 10 minute ability makes anything particularly engaging. Sure, some derived amusement out of weaseling what they could between 'verts, but this is also led to a lot of grief when party layouts didn't favor a particular RDM's style or skill. Hell, I was one of those, "Saves it for emergencies..." type people, while others were all, "@#%^ it, I'm spamming my MP!" Both side had their pros and cons, and both could blow up in your face. Touching on Refresh, nerfing that is just dumb. It was only 110 MP back for us. Nerfing it to 2/tick would make it 60 over those 2.5m. Not really much to write home about, just as you're further unlikely to see other /RDM folk gleefully jump into the refresh bitch role.

So, while some may see the above as a theft from the job, I look at it more as a needed phasing out or more aptly a reality check. Yes, I believe all caster jobs should have some native form of MP recovery and even felt WHM should've gotten Refresh back when, but that's secondary to my ultimate sentiment of, "Now what?" when trying to look past RDM's old one trick pony status. Unfortunately, players tend to work in absolutes, so the trick is finding that unique thing that is indeed wanted, but since RDM's polluted with people who have delusions of solo grandeur, are closet SCHs, would be better off playing BLM, or whatever, finding the path is muddied. Maybe I'm just too generous in thinking the "combining magic and swordplay" premise isn't that complex, but when you get people pulling the spankwustler card on top (Granted, something Torzak may not grasp given his absence), they're not helping.

Regardless of which camp SE favors, their inaction is perhaps the most loathsome aspect of this situation. Preserve the concept or pervert it, just do something.
#91 Jan 22 2013 at 9:38 PM Rating: Good
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Every time I see someone say Refresh/Convert defined us and that it should be locked or nerfed when subbed, I have to roll my eyes a little.


I see two sides of this argument, maybe there's more? A lot of RDMs did not want to be seen as the Refresh/Haste and Convert and do it some more B-word. I myself, as I'm sure you must be familiar with, didn't like looking at RDM for just that aspect of it. I explored a lot of other options and enjoyed it.

On the other hand, what I did like about Refresh/Haste and the limited supply of it, is that it practically guaranteed me a spot in an alliance doing end game things on the job I enjoyed the most. It wasn't one aspect of RDM I enjoyed. I enjoyed it all with a little bit of a bias toward doing things unusual, just because. So when I was refresh/haste/converting with the occasional cure bomb or silena, I was enjoying myself. Could I enjoy *just* that play style, no.

But I don't need to be a Rank 1 tank, Rank 1 melee, Rank 1 caster, etc to enjoy RDM. I'm ok with Rank 2 across much of the board, as long as there's something I can do that makes me desirable regardless of the role I want to play. And that leaves us to the question of "how?"

How do we make RDM desirable? There's really only so many options on the table. You can think in or out of the box, but there's going to be a limiting factor: Is it going to displace the main purpose of another job?

That single question by itself, I feel, really limits the options. I don't think we'll get far on the caster swordplay unless there's something that comes out of it that enhances everyone else's play as a result of our caster swordplay. Everyone wants to optimize their efforts, and bringing a RDM DD isn't optimized, currently. Optimizing doesn't require us to be able to win parses, and would actually require us to not win parses, but it does require us to win the hearts of the folks we play with. We need them to want us.

An aura that enhances the party or alliance by having composure up?
A unique buff that we can cast?
Something a heck of a lot more interesting involving enspells?

These are very basic ideas that I think could work. You could expand on them in different directions easily. Example:
*Give RDM a <cast on others> spell that does <insert some method of enhancing another player>
*Make enspells do <insert something that enspells could do>
*Give RDM an aura attached or unattached to composure that does <insert something the aura does for the party/alliance>

... but honestly, I'm not interested in doing any kind of detailed break down at the moment and instead, I'd be interested in hearing other very basic concepts of how things could be changed to allow caster/swordplay. By basic, I mean as basic as the above listed with an asterisk.

I think right now, whether most of us realize it or not, is the best time to throw ideas out there. There are a lot of proposed changes on the horizon for various aspects of the game.

I just hope no one is expecting to be invited as a DD equal, cause I really don't think that's ever going to happen with our tool kit.
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#92 Jan 22 2013 at 11:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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I like to say there are different paths to the same destination. And indeed, going into specifics can be tiresome if only due to the language barrier and the prevailing sentiment that SE doesn't give a @#%^ (about RDM).

Way back in the OF in the giant melee thread that basically devolved into a BG pissing contest, I posted very early on about 7 core issues that affected the job and, at the very least, it's attempt at a hybrid state.

Quote:
1) Lack of Hybrid Gear and/or active inventory space.
2) Lack of Hybrid Foods.
3) Casting burden.
4) Role Identity.
5) Lack of native melee traits.
6) Poor native weaponskill selection.
7) Bugs or unwanted "features".


#7 would actually include Enspell II talk, among other recent things we've talked on here.

A lot of these issues still remain and my post elaborated a bit more on just what all those mean. Yes, the game has changed a bit since then, but still not enough to really make an appreciable difference as a lot of us seem to be aware. If SE wants us to just go full caster, then you pretty much throw all of that out the window except for maybe the identity point. But I think it'd be a shame to sh*t on the job concept just to make something functional, which was basically the root of the spankwustler tripe. Either way, addressing all of the above wouldn't automatically turn is into #1 everything. It'd just balance our flexibility enough to then let those unique things spring up.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2013 12:36am by Seriha
#93 Jan 25 2013 at 8:31 PM Rating: Default
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Lack of native melee traits... period.

Really, that's the number one thing that needs to be changed. Native traits yields an identity. The last thing we need is another "haste" cycle type spell. RDM's need stuff to bring to the table.

I would prefer RDM to be an MP driven dancer. I know that sounds counter intuitive to the purpose of a Dancer, but follow along. Give RDM spells that buffs and enfeebles during melee.

Increase the native acc, to allow RDMs to at least hit the mobs and have +enhancing/enfeebling as modifiers. This will allow RDMs to choose from +enhancing/enfeebling gear to buff/enfeeble, melee gear to melee for damage or a modified combination of the two.
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#94 Jan 26 2013 at 11:46 AM Rating: Good
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Trying to wrap my head around that a little on how to make it work. Maybe a JA that functions like an MP fueled Samba, deducting from your MP on the initial hit landed? Could then spice it up further with your active enspell modifying the effect like Enstone inflicting Slow/VIT Down to the mob that'd stack with other sources while granting maybe -DT% or something to allies who hit that could also break the 50% cap. Main problem I see with this idea is it'd probably conflict with other DNC much like how Enspells and Sambas do already. All the more reason to fix that spaghetti code, though. I'd also be okay with a caster variant that functioned solely off nukes for those fights you might not wanna be in close, but then I'd still fall back to RDM needing an elemental skill upgrade.

The job isn't short on traits, though. It is indeed heavily mage lop-sided. Some may not mean much like Clear Mind in environments where you're never taking a knee, but there's still stuff like FC and MAB. But if we were to dole out unique traits, I'd like to see the following.

Gauche et Droit: Native dual wield effect restricted to sword main-hand and dagger off-hand, granting access to both WS trees at once. No delay reduction is applied (or just DW1's value) and this effect could stack with Fencer if acquired by a sub or other source.

A Thousand Cuts: Critical hits land a sequentially stacking DoT that rival Helix spells on the top end. Multiple RDMs could build this effect.

Combat Caster: Tiered trait that offers a chance to auto-attack immediately after casting a spell if engaged. Depending on the spell tree, the corresponding caster stats get treated as STR/DEX/ACC/ATK in the swing's calculation. So, a nuke would have INT mirror STR/DEX while MACC and MATK do their thing. This is mainly to off-set hitting for piddly in caster gear before we switch back to melee stuff.

Situational Awareness: Positioning relative to the mob yields different effects to physical and magical attacks. While I'd prefer every mob family receive a unique set of conditions for the RDM to act on, I could understand SE going for a more watered down system. And yes, I'm aware this sounds similar to GEO's tubes.

Coup de Grace: Landing a weaponskill strengthens and lengthens the duration of any detrimental effect while shortening the duration and potency of buffs on the target. This would mean we could buff things like a DRG's Agnon or DNC's various steps, while also bettering handling buffs that can't be dispelled in some cases or other quirky mob mechanics that affect their damage taken based on player activity.

Victory is Ours: If the RDM lands the killing blow on a target, the type of damage determines HP or MP restored to the party based on damage dealt split amongst party members. If the final blow is a critical, it may also reduce JA timers for the party based on the percentage of overkill.

Tactical Accumen: Current TP value offers a critical hit rate chance for all magic at a 10%:1% TP:Crit ratio. Yes, all magic.


Basically things mages and melees alike can benefit from, but I'd ultimately like to get us away from staves as the go-to caster option. The job still needs unique spells like my old Dischord idea affecting level correction and such.

Edited, Jan 26th 2013 12:47pm by Seriha
#95 Jan 26 2013 at 4:52 PM Rating: Default
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Trying to wrap my head around that a little on how to make it work. Maybe a JA that functions like an MP fueled Samba, deducting from your MP on the initial hit landed? Could then spice it up further with your active enspell modifying the effect like Enstone inflicting Slow/VIT Down to the mob that'd stack with other sources while granting maybe -DT% or something to allies who hit that could also break the 50% cap. Main problem I see with this idea is it'd probably conflict with other DNC much like how Enspells and Sambas do already. All the more reason to fix that spaghetti code, though. I'd also be okay with a caster variant that functioned solely off nukes for those fights you might not wanna be in close, but then I'd still fall back to RDM needing an elemental skill upgrade.


That's why I would rather have it based on mp spells and not abilities. In order to not contradict a DNC, these spells can increase the efficacy of our current spells. So, instead of "en-slow" inflicting "slow", it enhances the modifiers for slow.
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#96 Jan 26 2013 at 10:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Depending on the amount of spells required, that may be redundant to basically cast a spell to boost a spell. At that point, I'd just say lob us an Enfeebling Mastery trait that natively boosts all enfeebles or, in some cases, a further tier (with merits going scroll learned... again).
#97 Jan 27 2013 at 7:59 AM Rating: Default
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Seriha wrote:
Depending on the amount of spells required, that may be redundant to basically cast a spell to boost a spell. At that point, I'd just say lob us an Enfeebling Mastery trait that natively boosts all enfeebles or, in some cases, a further tier (with merits going scroll learned... again).


You're absolutely right, but the intent was to "push" RDMs to the front line, like enspell II, but give more benefits to the group outside of pure damage. So, it'll be like Enspell III (that works on both hands, but overridden by Enspell II on the main hand). So maybe instead of "en-slow" it'll be En-MND, EN-INT, EN-STR, etc. where every hit increases your stat by a number or percentage.

The main problem that I see with that is the potential overlap with our gain spells that we already have. There would be initial differences as one for casting and the other for melee, but there would have to be a justification to have both. Maybe all new enfeebles together? I'll keep thinking.
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#98 Jan 27 2013 at 10:16 PM Rating: Good
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I never bothered to check to see how Absorbs interacted with Gains. Given SE programmed those to decay, I see no reason why an on-strike version that builds couldn't be used in the same slot. Though, I'm sure someone somewhere would get antsy if we could manage +40-50 of a stat between that and a Gain while sapping 15-25 from a mob. Odds are we'd be married to whatever inflicts -VIT, particularly if the looming DEF/VIT change is drastic enough.
#99 Jan 28 2013 at 3:58 PM Rating: Default
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Yes, but I would like there to be a benefit for both in a scenario where melee isn't an issue.
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#100 Mar 05 2013 at 7:44 PM Rating: Good
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Lalala, late response ftw

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No. If you give temper away to buff other party members your dooming redmage to a life of buff cycles forever, it's not suppose to be a party enhancer. No cure V, play WHM for cures, play BLM for nukes. SCH for enhanced enhancements.


See, I want *RDM* to be a desired party job. That was the point of this thread, what would we like to see for RDM.

Spells like Temper, which can only be cast on the party member it is probably least useful on, are not going to cut it. To me it's about as asinine as it would have been to make SCH's Embrava (in its current incarnation, anyway) also self-only. It serves virtually no purpose for the SCH.

If they're gonna make a spell like Temper self-only, one thing I still haven't understood is why they didn't just give RDM an innate Double Attack trait instead and call it a day. It serves almost the same functional purpose and avoids unnecessarily teasing the playerbase with a spell that will never be usable on those it would help the most.

Also, with the increased duration we can now get on buffs that we couldn't get back at the 75 cap days, as well as things like Accession to AoE a handful of said buffs, I think the people that are chicken little-ing over "buff cycles" need to man up and grow a pair, to put it bluntly. (To be fair, I do think Haste needs to be added to the things potentially Accession-able; I see no reason for a spell like Phalanx to be there but not Haste.)

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after 75 RDM shouldn't get any extra curing or elemental magic, period. it'd only be stealing other jobs thunder quite literally.


Pro-tip: RDM would honestly still be a sh*tty healer with Cure 5. Anyone who doesn't realize this has likely not played WHM or examined the job well.

They would just close the gap ever so slightly by having it, which should kinda be the point of leveling past 75 and y'know, getting stronger.

RDM getting T4 nukes hasn't made them a prime nuking job either, for that matter.
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#101 Mar 08 2013 at 4:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Fynlar wrote:


See, I want *RDM* to be a desired party job. That was the point of this thread, what would we like to see for RDM.

Spells like Temper, which can only be cast on the party member it is probably least useful on, are not going to cut it. To me it's about as asinine as it would have been to make SCH's Embrava (in its current incarnation, anyway) also self-only. It serves virtually no purpose for the SCH.

If they're gonna make a spell like Temper self-only, one thing I still haven't understood is why they didn't just give RDM an innate Double Attack trait instead and call it a day. It serves almost the same functional purpose and avoids unnecessarily teasing the playerbase with a spell that will never be usable on those it would help the most.

Also, with the increased duration we can now get on buffs that we couldn't get back at the 75 cap days, as well as things like Accession to AoE a handful of said buffs, I think the people that are chicken little-ing over "buff cycles" need to man up and grow a pair, to put it bluntly. (To be fair, I do think Haste needs to be added to the things potentially Accession-able; I see no reason for a spell like Phalanx to be there but not Haste.)


I want RDM to be a desired party job as well, but I want temper all for myself. I think there are much better ways to make RDM a desired party job.

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