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#1 Jun 23 2012 at 10:33 AM Rating: Default
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I'm surprised that no one has said anything with the news of Geomancer. Any thoughts or have everyone given up on RDM already?
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#2 Jun 23 2012 at 12:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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After hearing SE say Abyssea was a failure, I've given up on FFXI as a whole.
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#3 Jun 23 2012 at 1:19 PM Rating: Default
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jlejeune wrote:
After hearing SE say Abyssea was a failure, I've given up on FFXI as a whole.


To be fair, Abyssea wasn't a failure, it was the player base that successfully turned the game into what it previously complained it being, pigeon-holed. The game is FAR from being perfect, but you can't cure stupid. If you look at the history of expansions, you'll see that pattern.
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#4 Jun 23 2012 at 1:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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I made a short blurb in one of the threads in general, touching more on the possibility of Mystic Knight, really. In the case of both jobs, there's a lot of "Why couldn't this just go to RDM?" if they wind up playing how expected, which mirrors SCH's old problem and how WHMs and BLMs felt they should've gotten the Arts and SCH just not exist. SCH's at least been fleshed out a bit more since, but it's in that position where I consider it the backline RDM anti-melee RDMs want to be with the marginal differences between debuff tiers and the current failings of the system.

That last point in mind, MK could basically invite the whole, "Well, you wanna be a magic swordsman? Level Mystic Knight!" counter-reasoning in trying to bring RDM's melee up to par while making them different enough from SCH to mean something. I'm not excited about SE's vaporware enfeebling adjustments until they actually give more info. And I've long been of the mind that if RDM is to be the enfeebler, you can't be having spells locked behind merits and having a generally small of ******* of them as is. BLU spanks RDM when it comes to debuff variety (and AoE potential) with Geomancer threatening to do similar. So, if SE continues to neglect RDM and the enfeebling adjustments are sub-par, there won't be much of a reason for people to play RDM as a third-rate everything. Not that there's much reason now, especially with RDM's T2 VW procs wiped.
#5 Jun 23 2012 at 6:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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I thought Abyssea was a step in the right direction, not perfect, but a step in the right direction. At least if you did your part right, you usually got the rewards you wanted, unlike old endgame where even if you did your part one person might have gotten a reward, even in places you could build a pop set on your own terms like sky and see. Unfortunately, they seem to think random is good MMO game design, called Abyssea a failure, and gave us VWNMs and Neo Nyzul where even if you did everything perfect, you get jack.

I say all this in a RDM thread because I seriously doubt they'll ever make RDM relevant again. Even if the new job isn't Mystic Knight, and even if Geomancer doesn't curb on our territory. It's stupidly obvious their vision for games is different from the players of said games. It's almost amazing. Even in Abyssea, they somehow made RDM a legitimate jack-of-all-trades while still making us irrelevant.
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#6 Jun 24 2012 at 12:00 AM Rating: Decent
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RDM is pretty much gone as a job. If offers nothing to a group of players, BST is more useful.

As Seriha put it, SCH/RDM does everything a RDM (mage) can do, and does it better. RDM's last bit of uniqueness was it's self buffing and melee capability (melee without needing a backline) which it looks like RNK/RUN is going to be doing. Kinda sad but it looks like the only reason to use RDM will be to run off into the middle of nowhere and solo something for giggles.
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#7 Jun 24 2012 at 6:29 AM Rating: Default
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saevellakshmi wrote:
RDM is pretty much gone as a job. If offers nothing to a group of players, BST is more useful.

As Seriha put it, SCH/RDM does everything a RDM (mage) can do, and does it better. RDM's last bit of uniqueness was it's self buffing and melee capability (melee without needing a backline) which it looks like RNK/RUN is going to be doing. Kinda sad but it looks like the only reason to use RDM will be to run off into the middle of nowhere and solo something for giggles.


I'm just curious because people said the same thing about SCH and BLU.
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#8 Jun 24 2012 at 9:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
I'm just curious because people said the same thing about SCH and BLU.

And to various extents, it's still true.
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#9 Jun 24 2012 at 12:24 PM Rating: Default
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jlejeune wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
I'm just curious because people said the same thing about SCH and BLU.

And to various extents, it's still true.


IMO, SCH and BLU were positive adds to FFXI for RDM. All of the RDMs who wanted to "Nuke only", went to SCH and all of the RDMs who wanted to "melee only", went to BLU. This left all of the RDMs who wanted to play RDM as a hybrid. It's always been a pet peeve of mind to see RDMs who's "melee gear set up" consisted of a Joy-Toy and a Genbu shield....
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#10 Jun 24 2012 at 1:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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RDMs with ****** gear aside, what good is being this "opened up hybrid" when it's never wanted for anything? When you're in the mog house deciding roles for things, people tend not to want broad tool sets. They want specifics. Need nukes? Get the BLM. Need cures? Get the WHM. Need support? Get the BRD. Need melee? Well, there's like 15 jobs that are better, but let's say WAR, MNK, and DRK are top dogs for now.

This is why in the past I've proposed means to better blend our melee and magic by letting the former buff the latter, offering a reward to taking the risk in particularly harder content. The only real gripe I got in counter was "But I don't wanna melee!!!!! Q_Q" and further pointing out their job identity crisis with SCH in the process. I could speculate they hate the thought of having to get more gear. I'm sure some just hated the idea because I mentioned it. But even if we weren't the best melee on the block, mechanically and after cast burden, our (de)buffs would be stronger than pure backline. And that's mainly were people got their panties in a twist. Suddenly being hybrid would have an advantage, and we can't have that now.

Looking around, I see some taking the introduction of Geomancer and Rune Fencer as some sign that SE will eventually look at RDM. I'm not so sure. Historically, we're one of the most stagnant jobs when it comes to updates, probably receiving more (indirect) nerfs than any other class in FFXI history. And where SE taketh, they haven't exactly giveth when it comes to their precious balance. The RDM we have now, or then, was basically what people made of it. The Composure update was the first time in a long time RDM had gotten any kind of attention, but that also brought the epic fail of T2 Enspells. What we received during the cap increases was more of the expected concession of the process (Upping some tiers), rather than legitimate job expansion (Temper aside). Composure itself didn't become a party utility until an entire set of gear was built around, which I still think dumb to this day.

We've been ******** at SE for years and years. Pink Mage is a term that came about for a reason. RDM became a job people wanted around, but nobody really wanted to play short of a few capitalizing bastards. Sensationalizing solos didn't really help, both for legitimizing future buffs in the eyes of devs and community, but in also justifying nerfs which has basically led to the current enfeebling situation. Hoping to ferry people off to other jobs makes none of this go away. Even if our debuffs do land tomorrow, it's still not going to change things because people have basically gotten away without them. RDM needs big changes, changes rooted in the heart of its concept, not so much what would just make it passable in the backline because the whole "I don't care if you melee, just don't do it in MY party!" line is just more of the same passive aggressive hate.

And let's not forget to offer a wave to all the "delicious tears" types who revel in RDM's situation. They enjoy rattling the cage from time to time, too.
#11 Jun 24 2012 at 3:10 PM Rating: Default
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Zero to RDM melee thread in just four posts. Good job guys.

It really does seem SE is content to let RDM rot and all the efforts they could be making to fix the job in any number of ways are instead being put into creating new jobs instead. It's enough to make me want to hang up my chapeau and leave.
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#12 Jun 24 2012 at 3:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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cidbahamut wrote:
Zero to RDM melee thread in just four posts. Good job guys.

It really does seem SE is content to let RDM rot and all the efforts they could be making to fix the job in any number of ways are instead being put into creating new jobs instead. It's enough to make me want to hang up my chapeau and leave.


I spotted the inaction a long time ago and left. The interest just isn't there. And even now with new jobs on the horizon I am skeptical on how their subjob abilities will assist Red Mage.

Now, if RDM/RFC allows Red Mage to join the tanking Scene again, that might be interesting, as the game is in desperate need of variant tanks. However I'm still skeptical of even that.
#14 Jun 24 2012 at 8:15 PM Rating: Excellent
cidbahamut wrote:
Zero to RDM melee thread in just four posts. Good job guys.


I looked back at Seriha's post, and I saw basically nothing that started up a whole "Rdm Melee" argument. There was some mention of it here and there, but that was more just to address the overall lack of real improvements that Red Mage has been given lately and how other jobs are or potentially will take up its remaining roles. Seriha's post was just saying that Red Mage needs to have some niche given back to it, and until then, people fear that jobs like Geomancer and Rune Fencer will take its place in the few areas that it otherwise still had some uniqueness in.

Seriha wrote:
I see a fine example of the Scholars in Denial(tm) has arrived to bless us with their productive feedback.

Tell us, oh glorious Gogglehead/Drjones, how might we strike compromise between the two camps?

Edited, Jun 24th 2012 8:25pm by Seriha


Let's not start with the trolling, okay? Any discussion of Red Mage lately tends to end up being borderline out of hand as it is, so let's not start stuff. I say that to the both of you now after reviewing things more, because you both were trying to start stuff with your comments, even if Seriha's was more blunt.

I try to be lenient when it comes to letting you guys debate stuff, but I expect you to debate the subject at hand, not try and berate the posters.

Edited, Jun 24th 2012 11:08pm by Vlorsutes
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#15 Jun 25 2012 at 4:53 AM Rating: Default
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Seriha wrote:
RDMs with sh*tty gear aside, what good is being this "opened up hybrid" when it's never wanted for anything? When you're in the mog house deciding roles for things, people tend not to want broad tool sets. They want specifics. Need nukes? Get the BLM. Need cures? Get the WHM. Need support? Get the BRD. Need melee? Well, there's like 15 jobs that are better, but let's say WAR, MNK, and DRK are top dogs for now.


Because no other job could adjust accordingly in a party. A BLM would have a harder time healing than a RDM (at the time of the release of SCH and BLU). A WHM would have a harder time nuking than a A RDM. A melees had limited to zero magic abilities..

Seriha wrote:
This is why in the past I've proposed means to better blend our melee and magic by letting the former buff the latter, offering a reward to taking the risk in particularly harder content. The only real gripe I got in counter was "But I don't wanna melee!!!!! Q_Q" and further pointing out their job identity crisis with SCH in the process. I could speculate they hate the thought of having to get more gear. I'm sure some just hated the idea because I mentioned it. But even if we weren't the best melee on the block, mechanically and after cast burden, our (de)buffs would be stronger than pure backline. And that's mainly were people got their panties in a twist. Suddenly being hybrid would have an advantage, and we can't have that now.


That was the intent of tier II enspells, but they somehow failed to implement it properly. I'm not sure why RDM wasn't set up like this from the start, but you play the cards that you were dealt with. That was what differentiated good RDMs from everyone else. It was possible, just not user friendly to do so.

Seriha wrote:
Composure itself didn't become a party utility until an entire set of gear was built around, which I still think dumb to this day.


I disagree. Reducing self casts helped casting for party members. It saved MP and time.
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#16 Jun 25 2012 at 6:01 AM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:


Because no other job could adjust accordingly in a party. A BLM would have a harder time healing than a RDM (at the time of the release of SCH and BLU). A WHM would have a harder time nuking than a A RDM. A melees had limited to zero magic abilities..
Neither of which mattered in a party that preferred to lay the blame square on one person for any mistakes or faults in a certain department. It's not a WHM's job to nuke, it's the BLM, and if he's getting major resists, it's his fault.

If BLM needs heals, he yells at the WHM even though the WHM is healing the tank, who got smacked hard and lost hate to the BLM.

Players somehow enjoy this sense of interdependency in which few people as possible are responsible for set roles. ("You had ONE job!" is easier to say than "Who was supposed to heal that guy?")


Quote:
That was the intent of tier II enspells, but they somehow failed to implement it properly.


I've said this before, but this is a mistake on the intent of Enspell IIs.

Enspell IIs should have never got a second 'tier' name, even though they are of similar design. They have a very targeted function for a very targeted and now obsolete level span. They are, very keenly designed to be a damage booster and enfeebeling assistant of 50-74, when dual wielding and multi-hit tactics start to push into the limelight for RDM's in the front lines - and never anything more than that. It has been fashioned as an alternative that allows RDM's to receive Samba effects on offhand/multi-hit builds, but that's the extent on how players have utalized it. Ultimately it was release far too late for it to be relevant and did not keep RDM's future in mind.

Alternatively, Temper is fairly nice.

Quote:
I disagree. Reducing self casts helped casting for party members. It saved MP and time.


Which it's other effects were overlooked anyways as the bonuses were applied on cast. It may have given RDM some spacing in casting, for the self, but in supporting others it was fairly useless until AF3. (And even then, we only have 2 real buffs we cast on others.)

I loved RDM but the playerbase hated it and shoved it into the least usable positions or the most stressful ones. Idealy it was to be designed pretty much like a free agent on the field, spot supporting wherever it was needed. But the tried old min-max mentality of the player base despise that sort of concept because they would rather give someone a set, determinable task they can blame them for, then to tell someone they don't trust to help the party by using their own discretion.


Edited, Jun 25th 2012 8:03am by Hyrist
#17 Jun 25 2012 at 7:53 AM Rating: Default
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Hyrist wrote:
Neither of which mattered in a party that preferred to lay the blame square on one person for any mistakes or faults in a certain department. It's not a WHM's job to nuke, it's the BLM, and if he's getting major resists, it's his fault.

If BLM needs heals, he yells at the WHM even though the WHM is healing the tank, who got smacked hard and lost hate to the BLM.

Players somehow enjoy this sense of interdependency in which few people as possible are responsible for set roles. ("You had ONE job!" is easier to say than "Who was supposed to heal that guy?")


The point is as a RDM, those are all of your jobs. I remember a time where a RDM was expected to back up cure/ main cure, haste/refresh, land magic bursts, sleep link controls and enfeeble. No other job could do those tasks as effectively as a RDM and I would do that while doing a few weapon skills/skill chains with the odd number DD/melee.

Hyrist wrote:
I loved RDM but the playerbase hated it and shoved it into the least usable positions or the most stressful ones.


People are stupid.

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#18 Jun 25 2012 at 1:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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While they may be stupid, or perhaps more appropriately sheepish, it's the game mechanics that condone various behaviors. I've also been in situations where you're doing all the various little this and thats, but that can be a high stress, high burnout, and high risk scenario for anyone without the patience and mettle to maintain it. And even then, someone else can easily mess up the routine by overpulling, often leading to the ol' blame game of who didn't do what properly. Three guesses on where people start. May as well add thick skin to the job requirement.

That out of the way, I'd just go back to the point that the game be changed to make whatever is desired to happen to happen. I could easily hop back to the OF and find posts by certain detractors swearing up and down that ideas like Combat Caster couldn't happen because they ultimately believed in their heart of hearts that all of the casting sub-routines were locked in stone. I went on to offer a correlation to Zanshin as an example of one action triggering another, particularly as an ability that didn't always exist and was later added to the game. In this case, a missed attack initiating a follow-up at a certain percentage. My thought went on to suggest that CC could be modified to function similarly, only completing a spell would be the trigger. "IMPOSSIBLE!" (Paraphrasing from more colorful rhetoric) Yeah, right, whatever. At the very least, it's an attempt to solve the issue where hybrid classes lose out on swing time tapping into their magical sides.

But yeah, there's just a lot of people quick to shoot down ideas, often without offering alternatives. And when some do, usually they're not thought out too well or rehash some pitfalls the more rational regulars have been up and down in the past. Even with the CC example, some would grumble about doing the extra attack(s) in your casting gear. Free potential TP aside, that's a problem that could also be worked around by mirroring INT/MND/MATK/MACC into STR/ATK/ACC/Crit for that specific hit. When SE can't give a job new things for people to process and reevaluate, though, we get RDM's situation. It worked back in the day out of desperation to make it work. It doesn't so much work now because how people have otherwise played has changed. And forgive me if I don't think letting our current debuffs actually land while maybe adding a couple more will change much. The baby steps game might've worked at 75, but not now.
#19 Jun 25 2012 at 4:09 PM Rating: Default
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Seriha wrote:
While they may be stupid, or perhaps more appropriately sheepish, it's the game mechanics that condone various behaviors.


One has to be either stupid and/or ignorant to be sheepish.

In any case, I don't deny the game doesn't have the best mechanics to support our ideal RDM. However, the stupidity of the player base outweighs any mechanic progress. Abyssea was the solution to the Max/min DD and Brd TP burn parties where only a few jobs were desired.

What did the player base do? They started doing unorthodox subbing in order to create the "perfect 4 person party", once again rejecting jobs.

Seriha wrote:
I've also been in situations where you're doing all the various little this and thats, but that can be a high stress, high burnout, and high risk scenario for anyone without the patience and mettle to maintain it. And even then, someone else can easily mess up the routine by overpulling, often leading to the ol' blame game of who didn't do what properly. Three guesses on where people start. May as well add thick skin to the job requirement.


I can't speak for DD's now, but back then, if stress were an issue for you, then "auto-attack + Weapon skill" DD's were for you.

You can't avoid the "blame game" as a mage. Everything will always be your fault, especially if someone dies.

Seriha wrote:
And forgive me if I don't think letting our current debuffs actually land while maybe adding a couple more will change much. The baby steps game might've worked at 75, but not now.


Those enfeebles would have to be amazing to be worthwhile. The bottom line is SE failed RDM horribly. Not only did they ***** up, they realized it, made promises and either failed in the execution or failed to execute them. Weren't there supposed to be some group enhancing buffs or did I miss them?
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#20 Jun 25 2012 at 4:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't recall. Maybe you're thinking of the whole "buff their allies into demi-gods" mistranslation fiasco, but some of us were quick to point out that Haste, Refresh, piddly Regens do not demi-gods make. I guess we could look at the hinted Protect buff as a nod to RDM, but it's hardly job-exclusive. And DEF is just one of those stats that's mechanically needed a hand for ages when you consider what level correction does for monster damage. Heck, it pretty much took Ochain to make PLDs physically serviceable these days, and that's only through breaking blocking.
#21 Jun 25 2012 at 6:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Really what else is going to change. Jobs have been able to preform duties of RDM more or less for 2 years now. (well soon). So I don't think any damage will be done. However RDM kind of has a chance for a permanent spot, depending on if SE makes enfeebles the thing again or not. If they are able to give that edge to RDM's (as they gave the edge to native healing classes) then there will be the usage factor required. Really it depends on SE's choice to how effective, and how needed enfeebles are.

But really it won't make much of a huge difference on way or another. The game is support heavy and has been for sometime. Mostly due to the fact that, there are a limited number of places in a group, and really any more than 1-2 support per groups is over cooking it (assuming they also go back to the old style NM's where you actually had to play the game effectively and not just spam temps.)
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#22 Jun 25 2012 at 7:09 PM Rating: Good
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I still stand by my opinion, I don't want to be forced to do a role just to improve another, I don't want to be a Combat Caster. It's a fine concept for jobs like BLU and DNC who are built around it, but that's not what RDM is. I like being able to fluidly move to any role (including melee) and fully committing myself to it, up to and including the exclusion of other roles. I dare say that not being forced into any one role has been the one and only constant RDMs have rallied by since before the days of Pink Mage.

SE was stance-happy for a while, and it might just be the only way to let RDM be Red Mage and still be relevant. They did a decent enough job allowing hybrids like SCH to switch between magical damage and support and DNC between physical damage and support using JAs, but heaven forbid RDM can do that, the original jack-of-all-trades hybrid. Composure was a great start, but they cut that idea prematurely short.
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#23 Jun 26 2012 at 4:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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jlejeune wrote:
I still stand by my opinion, I don't want to be forced to do a role just to improve another, I don't want to be a Combat Caster. It's a fine concept for jobs like BLU and DNC who are built around it, but that's not what RDM is. I like being able to fluidly move to any role (including melee) and fully committing myself to it, up to and including the exclusion of other roles. I dare say that not being forced into any one role has been the one and only constant RDMs have rallied by since before the days of Pink Mage.

SE was stance-happy for a while, and it might just be the only way to let RDM be Red Mage and still be relevant. They did a decent enough job allowing hybrids like SCH to switch between magical damage and support and DNC between physical damage and support using JAs, but heaven forbid RDM can do that, the original jack-of-all-trades hybrid. Composure was a great start, but they cut that idea prematurely short.


One of the main goals with the concept (Not so much CC, but melee-friendly integration) was to bridge the substantial gaps between staff swapping (or club/shield in some cases) and not. While it's true SE has added some Cure Potency swords lately, offensively they're lackluster to other alternatives while also being weaker than the magian counterpart. Introduce a system where you're more on par, and maybe even situationally advantageous (if at least by virtue of some bonus damage), and you introduce a choice where you can maintain the backline philosophy and still perform the same as ever, or step up and not actually seem like you're diminishing your prowess (because you literally are when losing huge percentages from a single slot).

My ultimate beef is that people can either feel this literally impossible, believe it'll somehow translate to no new spell growth ever, or both. Crappy players will muck things up regardless of whether or not things happen, but I'd at least like to try and take a step forward for everyone instead of either doing nothing or leaning further away from concept if only to spite people who keep trying to point out that growing disconnect. And yes, I will admit I'm sick of that last point and it's exactly why I got so "blunt" earlier. Either way, it'd only be the beginning as far as I'm concerned. I'd like the job to be both fun and desired. And really, there is a difference between filling gaps and just being a last resort.

Edited, Jun 26th 2012 6:43pm by Seriha
#24 Jun 26 2012 at 7:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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I can see them adding stuff like that to the game. But I bet they'll make getting the Coruscanti look easy. And any hybrid gear that would be commonplace would be next to useless compared to the easier to obtain magian swords/staffs. Or even elemental staffs and joyeuse.
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#25 Jun 27 2012 at 8:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Ideally you want a 1:1 ratio between support and melee.

Quote:
DD
DD
DD
Healer
Buffer
Buffer


Is the generic melee orientated party setup. It provides healing and enough buffs to enhance the melee's damage output, survivability and backline resource endurance.

You can't always get a 2nd buffing / support job, but you should always make the attempt. It's worth more then that 4th melee (hybrid setups aside).

Quote:
I can't speak for DD's now, but back then, if stress were an issue for you, then "auto-attack + Weapon skill" DD's were for you.


Those would be horrible DD's, although they do seem to be the most common. There is more to being a DPS / damage class then hitting two macros. JA management and gear being able to build your own gear sets, nobody starts out with the "best in slot" and there is much work done to bridge the gap between where you start and where your build is planned on going. That's without going into positioning, timing and knowing when to use your short duration abilities (Tomahawk / Agnon come to mind).

Anyhow, melee capabilities are part of RDM, you can not ignore nor deny them. They are the weakest and most ignored, but they do exist and should not be disregarded. I wasn't joking when I said anything a RDM/SCH can do a SCH/RDM can do better. In pure magic capabilities SCH far exceeds RDM, they have better heals, nukes, buffs, and even CC. They have access to paralyze / slow / Dia II / blind and every enfeeble from /RDM at full potency, their own native Dispel / Break / Sleep. Convert from /RDM along with their powerful sublimation and mega-buffed Regen spells, seriously 29hp/tick Regen 1, 64hp/tick Regen V, they can aoe those btw. If you want to play a job that does both White and Black magic then play SCH, it's absolutely perfect at it. Did I mention they could double the duration of all those spells / abilities.

Edited, Jun 27th 2012 2:17pm by saevellakshmi
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when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#26 Jun 27 2012 at 12:00 PM Rating: Default
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Those would be horrible DD's, although they do seem to be the most common. There is more to being a DPS / damage class then hitting two macros. JA management and gear being able to build your own gear sets, nobody starts out with the "best in slot" and there is much work done to bridge the gap between where you start and where your build is planned on going. That's without going into positioning, timing and knowing when to use your short duration abilities (Tomahawk / Agnon come to mind).


I slightly exaggerated the scenario to ridicule any RDM not being able to handle the aforesaid responsibilities. Those were the fun times. One can't complain about "having too much to do", then complain about being reduced to a haste/refresh bot/*****.
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#27 Jun 27 2012 at 1:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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You're still 1 person in a 6-man team. All it took was one person disagreeing to destabilize the group. Some would choose to do this through disbanding. Some would *****, and *****, and *****, and ***** until you stopped doing what they didn't like you doing (even if it really did no harm). Some would just "stop caring" and thus get lazy, bringing down party efficiency. Some would go on to intentionally sabotage the group, just so they can try to play the blame game. Where any of these scenarios lead could basically escalate to the outright end of the party, or the offending RDM just getting kicked and replaced.

You can say it never happened to you. You can say to just build your own parties (which doesn't solve the problem). You could say to only play with friends (which may work to a degree). In a perfect world, people wouldn't bat an eye. It'd just be another way someone plays the job that works. The whole, ********** off, I'll play how I want!" mentality some have expressed in the past isn't particularly endearing, especially if trying to turn around and say they're still a team player. And yeah, there's a difference between being that and the party's *****, but I think most of us have been around long enough to know that people were happy with having the latter back in the day. Just simple, albeit boring expectations, for a given result. Deviation, of course, could threaten that result. Full circle sheep sheep baaaw ram ewe, etc..

For all the RDM horror stories that have proliferated the boards over the years, the good ones involving the melee types aren't too common. Sure, the FFXI community seems to have an unfortunate fondness for drama, but the reactions drawn are still a reflection of the community. Some are direct from a player posting their own experiences. Others can be word of mouth. And any time a "good" story might come about, you can be sure someone was waiting to swoop in and find a way to tear it down. Low EXP/hr? Their fault. Actually do okay on a parse? Your other DDs sucked. Try to defend yourself? Don't bother, they did the math and are always in superior parties. Always. Such things can linger and otherwise neutral outsiders could be jaded by such happenings. Basically, there's only so much we can do without SE stepping in and basically slapping wrists through code changes.

So, while say I'll the physical RDM of 99 is better than the one we had at 75, it's a scale that's further skewed relative to other classes. Playing ranged has its perks with safety, the ability to fully swap gear, and a higher potential area awareness. Melee invites more risk through AoEs, limits main/sub swapping, and can provide some slight distraction regarding TP and/or WS timing. These "faults" add up, and while they'll never go away as intrinsic parts of the melee experience, the differences between an INT/MATK sword and a magian staff shouldn't be so night and day, nevermind what such a sword user gives up compared to an Almace or STR/ATK weapon. "Melee fodder, Magic bosses!" has been a popular line some have tried to use in the past, but it's pretty flawed for endgame RDMs when fodder doesn't exist (popped mobs), is easily avoided (sneak/invisible), or is just plain too awkward to do (switching atmas a lot in Abyssea). And I bring up the whole "Not in MY party!" line from earlier with the first paragraph in mind as enough people with such a mentality basically means playing alone and/or not quite experiencing content with others in an enjoyable manner.

And as someone who had a lot of jobs under their belt, I'm not really ashamed to say that if something was a better suited for a task, I'd switch to it instead of forcing it. It's not me hating on RDM (at least not when exploits weren't involved), it's just knowing limits are there and have been there for times it perhaps took too long for others to come around and see, but by then, we got what we have now. When you looked past the pink magery, when you looked past the solos, what was left? It's sad it took WHM and SCH being buffed, as well as new content either being built to curb solo or better handled by other jobs to get people asking those questions. "A dead job..." seems to be the unfortunate reply.
#28 Jun 27 2012 at 4:43 PM Rating: Default
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Seriha wrote:
You can say it never happened to you.


It has.

Seriha wrote:
You can say to just build your own parties (which doesn't solve the problem).


It doesn't solve the problem and will likely end up like the situation you just described unless you do it with friends.

Seriha wrote:
You could say to only play with friends (which may work to a degree).


That requires having friends, which seems mundane in a MMORPG, but I like to do my own thing and not rely on others.

Seriha wrote:
In a perfect world, people wouldn't bat an eye. It'd just be another way someone plays the job that works.


You would think; however, like I said earlier, people in general (not all) follow fads and refuse to try anything differently.

Seriha wrote:
The whole, "@#%^ off, I'll play how I want!" mentality some have expressed in the past isn't particularly endearing, especially if trying to turn around and say they're still a team player. And yeah, there's a difference between being that and the party's *****, but I think most of us have been around long enough to know that people were happy with having the latter back in the day. Just simple, albeit boring expectations, for a given result. Deviation, of course, could threaten that result. Full circle sheep sheep baaaw ram ewe, etc..


What really hurts is that the people who use that excuse, to do what they want, are usually wrong. So that doesn't help the cause either. I've seen people who say that and excel at their job, just haven't been the norm in my experience.

Seriha wrote:
For all the RDM horror stories that have proliferated the boards over the years, the good ones involving the melee types aren't too common. Sure, the FFXI community seems to have an unfortunate fondness for drama, but the reactions drawn are still a reflection of the community. Some are direct from a player posting their own experiences. Others can be word of mouth. And any time a "good" story might come about, you can be sure someone was waiting to swoop in and find a way to tear it down. Low EXP/hr? Their fault. Actually do okay on a parse? Your other DDs sucked. Try to defend yourself? Don't bother, they did the math and are always in superior parties. Always. Such things can linger and otherwise neutral outsiders could be jaded by such happenings. Basically, there's only so much we can do without SE stepping in and basically slapping wrists through code changes.


I've seen the evolution of RDM melee support on this forum. I remember being the lone ranger on RDM melee back in 2003. Now, the people who are flat out against RDM melee in most, if not all scenarios, (at least from the RDM player base) seems to be the minority.

Seriha wrote:
And as someone who had a lot of jobs under their belt, I'm not really ashamed to say that if something was a better suited for a task, I'd switch to it instead of forcing it. It's not me hating on RDM (at least not when exploits weren't involved), it's just knowing limits are there and have been there for times it perhaps took too long for others to come around and see, but by then, we got what we have now.


That was the entire reason why I leveled WHM. Main healing as RDM in events just plain sucked. I remember a time where my WHM had more game time than RDM, because I got tired of trying to be a WHM as a RDM.
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#29 Jul 26 2012 at 7:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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GamerEscape Interview wrote:
GE- How many types of Runes and Luopons will there be? Will they be a consumable item that players will have to carry around with them? Or will they be a spell or ability?

SE- Runes will be activated through the use of abilities. As mentioned at VanaFest, there are both offensive and defensive types of runes. Offensive runes will mainly be used against enemies dealing elemental damage and such, while defensive runes will mainly be used on yourself and party members to reduce elemental damage.

Rune fencers will also be able to utilize enhancing magic, so like paladins they will also utilize and consume MP.

Any bets on them getting Enspells and a rune ability to super juice them? Smiley: bah

Edited, Jul 26th 2012 9:57am by Seriha
#30 Jul 26 2012 at 10:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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Seriha wrote:
Any bets on them getting Enspells and a rune ability to super juice them? Smiley: bah

But, but, but... we're supposed to be the job that buffs us into demi-gods!
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#31 Jul 29 2012 at 11:39 PM Rating: Default
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so what's the word on enfeebles? I haven't been able to play since the update. Has anyone see any notable change or value?
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#32 Nov 09 2012 at 5:29 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm surprised that no one has talked about Haste II or possibly getting Regain.. We have truly died lol
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#33 Nov 09 2012 at 5:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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I did in =10. Basically don't see it changing **** for the better.
#34 Nov 09 2012 at 6:43 PM Rating: Good
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Regain could be nice, though I'd prefer it were self-cast.

I see next to nothing good in Haste 2, however. just one more spell expected to cycle when magic Haste is already easily capped. Its nothing more than a distraction.
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#35 Nov 09 2012 at 10:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
I did in =10. Basically don't see it changing sh*t for the better.


I know, I also responded there. The problem is, every time we mention RDM there, it turns into a RDM debate and we get pushed over here, so why not discuss it in our own thread.

SunriderRagnarok wrote:
Regain could be nice, though I'd prefer it were self-cast.

I see next to nothing good in Haste 2, however. just one more spell expected to cycle when magic Haste is already easily capped. Its nothing more than a distraction.

I prefer Haste II to be self-cast. Anything else would be completely stupid. Unless it's like the fastest haste build that you could have not stackable with gear and lasts 10 mins long. Else, it's just a solo spell

As for Regain, same thing lol.
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#36 Nov 11 2012 at 12:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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Just not much to discuss, which somewhat segues with my commentary running in the Happy Friday thread. Game isn't changing much, and only now we're getting the faintest bone of something maybe possible, but it's not all that exciting.

So, aside from also hoping for a longer default duration of what would probably be a 20% spell, maybe I could dream big and imagine it would have the Regain component on top, even if it is just 1 TP/tick. It'll unlikely change x-hit builds and a free WS over 5m wouldn't be the end of the world, but I need to remember we're dealing with SE here.
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