I'm SurprisedFollow

After hearing SE say Abyssea was a failure, I've given up on FFXI as a whole.

I made a short blurb in one of the threads in general, touching more on the possibility of Mystic Knight, really. In the case of both jobs, there's a lot of "Why couldn't this just go to RDM?" if they wind up playing how expected, which mirrors SCH's old problem and how WHMs and BLMs felt they should've gotten the Arts and SCH just not exist. SCH's at least been fleshed out a bit more since, but it's in that position where I consider it the backline RDM anti-melee RDMs want to be with the marginal differences between debuff tiers and the current failings of the system.

That last point in mind, MK could basically invite the whole, "Well, you wanna be a magic swordsman? Level Mystic Knight!" counter-reasoning in trying to bring RDM's melee up to par while making them different enough from SCH to mean something. I'm not excited about SE's vaporware enfeebling adjustments until they actually give more info. And I've long been of the mind that if RDM is to be the enfeebler, you can't be having spells locked behind merits and having a generally small of arsenal of them as is. BLU spanks RDM when it comes to debuff variety (and AoE potential) with Geomancer threatening to do similar. So, if SE continues to neglect RDM and the enfeebling adjustments are sub-par, there won't be much of a reason for people to play RDM as a third-rate everything. Not that there's much reason now, especially with RDM's T2 VW procs wiped.

RDM is pretty much gone as a job. If offers nothing to a group of players, BST is more useful.

As Seriha put it, SCH/RDM does everything a RDM (mage) can do, and does it better. RDM's last bit of uniqueness was it's self buffing and melee capability (melee without needing a backline) which it looks like RNK/RUN is going to be doing. Kinda sad but it looks like the only reason to use RDM will be to run off into the middle of nowhere and solo something for giggles.

And to various extents, it's still true.

RDMs with sh*tty gear aside, what good is being this "opened up hybrid" when it's never wanted for anything? When you're in the mog house deciding roles for things, people tend not to want broad tool sets. They want specifics. Need nukes? Get the BLM. Need cures? Get the WHM. Need support? Get the BRD. Need melee? Well, there's like 15 jobs that are better, but let's say WAR, MNK, and DRK are top dogs for now.

This is why in the past I've proposed means to better blend our melee and magic by letting the former buff the latter, offering a reward to taking the risk in particularly harder content. The only real gripe I got in counter was "But I don't wanna melee!!!!! Q_Q" and further pointing out their job identity crisis with SCH in the process. I could speculate they hate the thought of having to get more gear. I'm sure some just hated the idea because I mentioned it. But even if we weren't the best melee on the block, mechanically and after cast burden, our (de)buffs would be stronger than pure backline. And that's mainly were people got their panties in a twist. Suddenly being hybrid would have an advantage, and we can't have that now.

Looking around, I see some taking the introduction of Geomancer and Rune Fencer as some sign that SE will eventually look at RDM. I'm not so sure. Historically, we're one of the most stagnant jobs when it comes to updates, probably receiving more (indirect) nerfs than any other class in FFXI history. And where SE taketh, they haven't exactly giveth when it comes to their precious balance. The RDM we have now, or then, was basically what people made of it. The Composure update was the first time in a long time RDM had gotten any kind of attention, but that also brought the epic fail of T2 Enspells. What we received during the cap increases was more of the expected concession of the process (Upping some tiers), rather than legitimate job expansion (Temper aside). Composure itself didn't become a party utility until an entire set of gear was built around, which I still think dumb to this day.

We've been bitching at SE for years and years. Pink Mage is a term that came about for a reason. RDM became a job people wanted around, but nobody really wanted to play short of a few capitalizing bastards. Sensationalizing solos didn't really help, both for legitimizing future buffs in the eyes of devs and community, but in also justifying nerfs which has basically led to the current enfeebling situation. Hoping to ferry people off to other jobs makes none of this go away. Even if our debuffs do land tomorrow, it's still not going to change things because people have basically gotten away without them. RDM needs big changes, changes rooted in the heart of its concept, not so much what would just make it passable in the backline because the whole "I don't care if you melee, just don't do it in MY party!" line is just more of the same passive aggressive hate.

And let's not forget to offer a wave to all the "delicious tears" types who revel in RDM's situation. They enjoy rattling the cage from time to time, too.

I spotted the inaction a long time ago and left. The interest just isn't there. And even now with new jobs on the horizon I am skeptical on how their subjob abilities will assist Red Mage.

Now, if RDM/RFC allows Red Mage to join the tanking Scene again, that might be interesting, as the game is in desperate need of variant tanks. However I'm still skeptical of even that.

Because no other job could adjust accordingly in a party. A BLM would have a harder time healing than a RDM (at the time of the release of SCH and BLU). A WHM would have a harder time nuking than a A RDM. A melees had limited to zero magic abilities..



That was the intent of tier II enspells, but they somehow failed to implement it properly. I'm not sure why RDM wasn't set up like this from the start, but you play the cards that you were dealt with. That was what differentiated good RDMs from everyone else. It was possible, just not user friendly to do so.



I disagree. Reducing self casts helped casting for party members. It saved MP and time.

The point is as a RDM, those are all of your jobs. I remember a time where a RDM was expected to back up cure/ main cure, haste/refresh, land magic bursts, sleep link controls and enfeeble. No other job could do those tasks as effectively as a RDM and I would do that while doing a few weapon skills/skill chains with the odd number DD/melee.



People are stupid.

One has to be either stupid and/or ignorant to be sheepish.

In any case, I don't deny the game doesn't have the best mechanics to support our ideal RDM. However, the stupidity of the player base outweighs any mechanic progress. Abyssea was the solution to the Max/min DD and Brd TP burn parties where only a few jobs were desired.

What did the player base do? They started doing unorthodox subbing in order to create the "perfect 4 person party", once again rejecting jobs.



I can't speak for DD's now, but back then, if stress were an issue for you, then "auto-attack + Weapon skill" DD's were for you.

You can't avoid the "blame game" as a mage. Everything will always be your fault, especially if someone dies.



Those enfeebles would have to be amazing to be worthwhile. The bottom line is SE failed RDM horribly. Not only did they screw up, they realized it, made promises and either failed in the execution or failed to execute them. Weren't there supposed to be some group enhancing buffs or did I miss them?

Really what else is going to change. Jobs have been able to preform duties of RDM more or less for 2 years now. (well soon). So I don't think any damage will be done. However RDM kind of has a chance for a permanent spot, depending on if SE makes enfeebles the thing again or not. If they are able to give that edge to RDM's (as they gave the edge to native healing classes) then there will be the usage factor required. Really it depends on SE's choice to how effective, and how needed enfeebles are.

But really it won't make much of a huge difference on way or another. The game is support heavy and has been for sometime. Mostly due to the fact that, there are a limited number of places in a group, and really any more than 1-2 support per groups is over cooking it (assuming they also go back to the old style NM's where you actually had to play the game effectively and not just spam temps.)

One of the main goals with the concept (Not so much CC, but melee-friendly integration) was to bridge the substantial gaps between staff swapping (or club/shield in some cases) and not. While it's true SE has added some Cure Potency swords lately, offensively they're lackluster to other alternatives while also being weaker than the magian counterpart. Introduce a system where you're more on par, and maybe even situationally advantageous (if at least by virtue of some bonus damage), and you introduce a choice where you can maintain the backline philosophy and still perform the same as ever, or step up and not actually seem like you're diminishing your prowess (because you literally are when losing huge percentages from a single slot).

My ultimate beef is that people can either feel this literally impossible, believe it'll somehow translate to no new spell growth ever, or both. Crappy players will muck things up regardless of whether or not things happen, but I'd at least like to try and take a step forward for everyone instead of either doing nothing or leaning further away from concept if only to spite people who keep trying to point out that growing disconnect. And yes, I will admit I'm sick of that last point and it's exactly why I got so "blunt" earlier. Either way, it'd only be the beginning as far as I'm concerned. I'd like the job to be both fun and desired. And really, there is a difference between filling gaps and just being a last resort.

Edited, Jun 26th 2012 6:43pm by Seriha

Ideally you want a 1:1 ratio between support and melee.



Is the generic melee orientated party setup. It provides healing and enough buffs to enhance the melee's damage output, survivability and backline resource endurance.

You can't always get a 2nd buffing / support job, but you should always make the attempt. It's worth more then that 4th melee (hybrid setups aside).



Those would be horrible DD's, although they do seem to be the most common. There is more to being a DPS / damage class then hitting two macros. JA management and gear being able to build your own gear sets, nobody starts out with the "best in slot" and there is much work done to bridge the gap between where you start and where your build is planned on going. That's without going into positioning, timing and knowing when to use your short duration abilities (Tomahawk / Agnon come to mind).

Anyhow, melee capabilities are part of RDM, you can not ignore nor deny them. They are the weakest and most ignored, but they do exist and should not be disregarded. I wasn't joking when I said anything a RDM/SCH can do a SCH/RDM can do better. In pure magic capabilities SCH far exceeds RDM, they have better heals, nukes, buffs, and even CC. They have access to paralyze / slow / Dia II / blind and every enfeeble from /RDM at full potency, their own native Dispel / Break / Sleep. Convert from /RDM along with their powerful sublimation and mega-buffed Regen spells, seriously 29hp/tick Regen 1, 64hp/tick Regen V, they can aoe those btw. If you want to play a job that does both White and Black magic then play SCH, it's absolutely perfect at it. Did I mention they could double the duration of all those spells / abilities.

Edited, Jun 27th 2012 2:17pm by saevellakshmi

You're still 1 person in a 6-man team. All it took was one person disagreeing to destabilize the group. Some would choose to do this through disbanding. Some would bitch, and bitch, and bitch, and bitch until you stopped doing what they didn't like you doing (even if it really did no harm). Some would just "stop caring" and thus get lazy, bringing down party efficiency. Some would go on to intentionally sabotage the group, just so they can try to play the blame game. Where any of these scenarios lead could basically escalate to the outright end of the party, or the offending RDM just getting kicked and replaced.

You can say it never happened to you. You can say to just build your own parties (which doesn't solve the problem). You could say to only play with friends (which may work to a degree). In a perfect world, people wouldn't bat an eye. It'd just be another way someone plays the job that works. The whole, "@#%^ off, I'll play how I want!" mentality some have expressed in the past isn't particularly endearing, especially if trying to turn around and say they're still a team player. And yeah, there's a difference between being that and the party's bitch, but I think most of us have been around long enough to know that people were happy with having the latter back in the day. Just simple, albeit boring expectations, for a given result. Deviation, of course, could threaten that result. Full circle sheep sheep baaaw ram ewe, etc..

For all the RDM horror stories that have proliferated the boards over the years, the good ones involving the melee types aren't too common. Sure, the FFXI community seems to have an unfortunate fondness for drama, but the reactions drawn are still a reflection of the community. Some are direct from a player posting their own experiences. Others can be word of mouth. And any time a "good" story might come about, you can be sure someone was waiting to swoop in and find a way to tear it down. Low EXP/hr? Their fault. Actually do okay on a parse? Your other DDs sucked. Try to defend yourself? Don't bother, they did the math and are always in superior parties. Always. Such things can linger and otherwise neutral outsiders could be jaded by such happenings. Basically, there's only so much we can do without SE stepping in and basically slapping wrists through code changes.

So, while say I'll the physical RDM of 99 is better than the one we had at 75, it's a scale that's further skewed relative to other classes. Playing ranged has its perks with safety, the ability to fully swap gear, and a higher potential area awareness. Melee invites more risk through AoEs, limits main/sub swapping, and can provide some slight distraction regarding TP and/or WS timing. These "faults" add up, and while they'll never go away as intrinsic parts of the melee experience, the differences between an INT/MATK sword and a magian staff shouldn't be so night and day, nevermind what such a sword user gives up compared to an Almace or STR/ATK weapon. "Melee fodder, Magic bosses!" has been a popular line some have tried to use in the past, but it's pretty flawed for endgame RDMs when fodder doesn't exist (popped mobs), is easily avoided (sneak/invisible), or is just plain too awkward to do (switching atmas a lot in Abyssea). And I bring up the whole "Not in MY party!" line from earlier with the first paragraph in mind as enough people with such a mentality basically means playing alone and/or not quite experiencing content with others in an enjoyable manner.

And as someone who had a lot of jobs under their belt, I'm not really ashamed to say that if something was a better suited for a task, I'd switch to it instead of forcing it. It's not me hating on RDM (at least not when exploits weren't involved), it's just knowing limits are there and have been there for times it perhaps took too long for others to come around and see, but by then, we got what we have now. When you looked past the pink magery, when you looked past the solos, what was left? It's sad it took WHM and SCH being buffed, as well as new content either being built to curb solo or better handled by other jobs to get people asking those questions. "A dead job..." seems to be the unfortunate reply.

Any bets on them getting Enspells and a rune ability to super juice them?

Edited, Jul 26th 2012 9:57am by Seriha

so what's the word on enfeebles? I haven't been able to play since the update. Has anyone see any notable change or value?

I did in =10. Basically don't see it changing sh*t for the better.

I know, I also responded there. The problem is, every time we mention RDM there, it turns into a RDM debate and we get pushed over here, so why not discuss it in our own thread.


I prefer Haste II to be self-cast. Anything else would be completely stupid. Unless it's like the fastest haste build that you could have not stackable with gear and lasts 10 mins long. Else, it's just a solo spell

As for Regain, same thing lol.