RDM update stuffFollow

Tranquil Heart should have been the silver bullet fix to allow Cure V to be opened to other jobs. It could have applied the Cure V enmity rule to all cures, been given at the same level White Mage gets Cure V and only given to White Mage. Suddenly Cure V becomes ok to hand out to others because it comes with a huge risk of pulling hate attached to it, leaving White Mage the preferred healer while allowing other jobs to not be left in the dust with spell progression.


National sport, etc etc.

To be fair though, there was also a bit of a difference between the situations. What happened in that other topic people were reporting that they considered it an actual threat towards Alma, that the individual (I forget who offhand) deliberately said he was going to go over to Alma's server and fraps him playing his Rdm. The context wasn't meant to be harassment, but there were people that felt that he (the individual) was planning on doing it to harass Alma.

In Hyrist's case, besides the fact that it wasn't reported, we've all had those days where we've just been so fed up with work and whatnot that you'll make an outrageous comment like that without any indication of meaning it (I found how he said it a bit on the sarcastic side, which further led me to that belief about no real indication of it). If he had named names and mentioned someone specifically from the forums, then there'd be no question about it.

As it was in the case of the post though, it was a gray area.

What I said was:



Not even close to being nearly as direct as what Hyrist said. You can argue the implication of the statement, sure; but it's just that: implication, subject to the interpretation of the reader... whereas Hyrist pretty much came out and said that someday, he's going on a murderous rampage and targeting all the people he doesn't like (and guess what, it was posted in response to other posters who he has made explicitly clear he does not like), and your interpretation is that it was sarcastic/joking/etc, even sympathizing with him a little. Again, the power of interpretation at work.

All I can say is, both were out of line, but if one were to actually happen, which would be worse? One involves some internet hijinx, with some hurt feelings maybe, the other is... well, yeah, I don't really think there's a comparison... and consider that the lesser evil was merely implied, while the much greater one was stated as an inevitability.

TL;DR: If you're going to mod, you need to be dispassionate about it, or there's no @#%^ing point.

Edited, Oct 6th 2011 5:11pm by LyltiaofLakshmi

And as for this? Go read back through the thread, and you'll see that it was quite civil until Hyrist didn't like the answer he got and ranted off an essay about completely unrelated sh*t. If anything, we were encouraging him in his melee ways by attempting to explain how to properly compare gear when building his melee sets.

It's not the fact that he melees that makes people treat him (and others) like a mental reject/second-class citizen; it's the fact that he (and others) completely rejects sound math/advice simply because it came out of someone else's mouth, and further compounds it with aforementioned rant.

You need to remove yourself from your echo chamber and see the forest for the trees, so on, so forth. You think everyone is out to point and laugh at you for meleeing on RDM, but the reality is that really, nobody cares. Really, they don't! However, if you're going to shove it in everyone's face every chance you get, people are naturally going to expect you to know your sh*t; and for some reason, it seems that these very same people tend to have very poor knowledge of how the game works (for a pretty good example, check out page 1).

You'll notice that melee RDMs that take the time to gear themselves properly and run parses so they actually have data to make cogent points about are generally treated pretty well by the community. This is not a coincidence, nor an isolated incident. Conversely, disregarding math in favor of bitching how RDM is a MAGIC SWORDSMAN and should be competing with heavy DDs is a pretty surefire way to get yourself immolated by the internet. This, too, is not a coincidence, nor an isolated incident.

So please, I know you've been carrying that torch for a long time, and it's probably pretty hard to let it go (all the times you've had!), but... just let it go. You'll feel much better, I promise.

Let me guess someone has to report it then it is an issue? One Sec.

I suggest you reread Seriha's post, then come back and tell me how he is not saying we should equal or surpass the potential of a dedicated DD. Here, I'll even point it out to you:



You might wanna try reading before jumping on my sh*t next time, pal.

Just returning the favor.

Hey guys, good to see that things are still pretty much as they were when I last came around, if perhaps with a bit less hilarity and a bit more direct hating.

To be on topic for a paragraph, I would really like to see red mage, as well as scholar and paladin, get some new form of people die less now. I'm not gonna say it has to be cure V since it is a pretty epic spell to suddenly dole out to everyone and I'm not gonna claim to have the right answer for it either, but for the love of god SE please hand out some more heals kthx.

Okay. Now for what I really want to talk about, and that's the omgrant that's been taking place here. I've always been in favor for throwing red mage a bit more of a bone in terms of their melee aspect because I love to melee with my red mage. When discussing it with others, I like to say things like "when the game was lv.50 cap, the gear that was available really allowed red mage to have fairly comperable stats to other medium level DD jobs in terms of gear." Somewhere along the way, that just stopped happening altogether and I've never stopped being sad about it, because there's no other job or class like it in any other MMO I've ever played, and lately I've been looking. There's something in the experience of red-maging that I have never found anywhere else.

The point? Most people have an attitude that says "You should have just leveled scholar, because that's what we want you to play." I see that primarily in RCD's posts, no offense intended.

I think it's understandable when Hyrist has the kind of reaction he had earlier in this thread. I find Seriha's posts to be lucid and calm and informative, and by contrast it seems like lyltia is just trolling. Yes, I read your quote. I don't think competing with = matching. I suppose the question becomes should a top tier melee RDM perform better than an AH anything? I think it should.

Because obviously no one talks about an averagely equiped melee red mage. Perish the thought that such things even exist. You aren't allowed to talk about meleeing on RDM without CDC and all the rare/ex gear in the game, and even then it's something that I guess we can just turn a blind eye to since even if we don't like it at least they have a good weaponskill and haste cap, amirite?

P.S. I love you Hyrist and I want your friends.

Disclaimer: I haven't touched RDM since 75 cap due to raaaage quit, and while I know of some of the new shinies it's my understanding that it's been more of the same until temper and suchlike just recently, so maybe AH melee is exactly where it was when i last looked?

Edited, Oct 8th 2011 11:56pm by Aiyl

It's easy to assume I'm just sitting in my MH with no gear, isn't it?

You want to throw around that having an Empyrean weapon is standard gear. I disagree. We've been over why, but as a recap for new readers, I don't believe any job should have to hit max level and then some before it can even begin tapping into an aspect of it. This isn't me saying, "I want to be awesome without gear!" It's me saying, "The cumulative aspects of RDM are on too much of a steep slope, with Almace being the perfect example of Zero to Hero type balancing." And even with this, you still see resistance, you still see people claiming RDM melee is beyond repair and not worthy of dev time. If the job is truly in such a good place as your collective effort would imply, why aren't you in their face calling them ignorant, dumb, and immolatingeducating them?

Overall, I know what I've been through here, on other boards, and in-game. Tapping into RDM's martial aspects is an uphill battle statistically and socially. The former influences the latter, and not having your respect, the @#%^ all it's done for me or could ever hope to, isn't going to change that. Meanwhile, I have no interest in seeing RDMs, present and future, go through the same crap myself and others have just because we didn't choose the path of least resistance. Capped haste and CDC might've done the trick at 75, but everyone else has grown since then. I'm not sorry that me calling that to the attention of others is so offensive to your sensibilities, but I stand by the point that if we were so truly and honestly well off, people wouldn't be going insane the moment RDM and melee is spoken in the same sentence without ridiculing it.

Edited, Oct 9th 2011 6:49am by Seriha

and gain, no matter how many times you want to deny it. You entire argument always always comes down to damage. It always does. RDM is not a DD, can it DD sure, but it is not nor should it ever be a job that pops to mind when you are making a group and need DD.

RDM is a job that has ability to adequately function in many roles, but should never be truly great at any of them. As my last post said, sure we still need some tweakings (primarily on the part of the devs to put us on EX Dagger/and Sword WS's. Put us on Dagger Magians) for melee and healing. But for the most part the job is in a good place.

If you want to play a job where people will say we need X to do Y, go level a dedicated job. If you want to play a job that can fit into most slots and is a gear swap away from others then play RDM and learn to accept the fact that because RDM can do a bit of it all, that you should have limitations.

Funny you always bring it back to being about damage though.



because they are right there are much more larger issues with RDM then its melee side currently. Enfeebles are practically useless because SE refuses to make mobs vulnerable to them, healing is growing further and further behind (especially now with SCH's buffs), our "super buffing" is limited to Refresh II, and Phalanx II as our only unique native buffs. (and the fact Temper and our gain spells are both restricted from accession is just another punch to the jaw on top of it all.)

All things that are more important to a group then our melee (even if we hit as hard as a WAR the benefits w provide otherwise have always been more useful).

Edited, Oct 9th 2011 11:00am by rdmcandie

Edited, Oct 9th 2011 11:03am by rdmcandie

And as long as you have Evisceration, (buy a 100K blau), a modest haste set,eat meat, and at least RR, GH atmas, your melee will be competent enough for abyssea. Gil is easily made (especially for a RDM) by farming Dark Rings which will let you buy some of the pricier gear, and/or pay LS's to get you the items.

As for CDC you can easily solo for the non EMP weapon, to have CDC open while you work on building an EMP weapon.

The gear isn't unobtainable, it just requires a drive to get it, and sometimes some good friends who don't need to get something to come help. (then again saying you have no competent friends to speak of is probably a bad way to start asking them for help.)

Actually @#%^ the rest....GL to you.

I'm calling shenanigans.

Obviously they're top tier equipment. Yet I don't have one, and I have no plans to work on one, and yet someone has the gall to tell me I'm not serious?

Given that they are relatively easy to acquire and considering the boost to performance they offer, yes.

Precisely, hence the incredulity at those who still insist this stuff is out of reach for them.

Well what other "By George, we now kick tremendous amounts of ass" items are there to compare it against?

How to build an Empyrean 101
1. Camp a bunch of low to mid level NMs which are trivially easy to defeat.
2. Shout for help with some VNMs.
3. Get your Linkshell to blitz through the Abyssea NM portion in roughly a week.
4. That's it! You're done.

Now stack that against the legwork, quests, additional trials and several hundred million gil worth of currency it takes to build a relic or mythic.

Even if we didn't have Relics and Mythics to compare against, Empyreans are still easy. They might be a little time consuming, but they're not difficult.

Wow been awhile since I've been around here.

I see the old trolls are still present, I wish ala had an ignore feature.

Anyhow onto the topic at hand.

Fyn what their talking about is the crazy mentality that the top 5% tend to have. Basically if your not in the top 5% therefor you suck, this completely ignored the fact that the bottom 95% make more money for SE then the top 5% ever could. I just ignore them, faster and easier that way.

Emps are *easy* only in comparison to relics which basically required you to screw an entire shell over to make, that or get shacked up with really generous people. Otherwise it's still requires a significant time / energy investment and practically requires friends that have the proper jobs available and geared. Triple boxing a WHM, NIN with me on WAR meant I could build as many sobek pop sets as I wanted, unfortunately my play time is severely restricted with me spending all of it with my shell. This allowed me to only get 26 skins prior to "my turn" on the LS Emp weapon list, then we finished the final 24 skins at once. I don't expect other players to have access to these resources, nor should those resources be required to enjoy a MMO. Every player should be able to enjoy the game, not just those with connections.

RDM melee is actually pretty strong, it just has a few glaring weakness's.

First is WS selection, CDC is amazing but a job shouldn't require an Emp to do this. With the severe glut of good daggers, RDM ~needs~ Vorpal Blade and DW together. Otherwise your back to needing CDC.

Second is gear selection, it's pretty thin but I've been able to put together a rocking set. We really need better body / leg selections, and more ATK / DEX options for CDC.

Currently I've got,

Main / Sub: Almace / STR Shamshir +3
Ranges: M.Acc +8 Chakram
Head: Zelus Tiara
Neck: Rancor Collar
Ear1: Suppa
Ear2: Brutal
Body: ACP Body Atk+10 Acc+10 (Been debating changing this for a long time)
Hands: Dusk +1
Ring1: Keen Ring (Acc+3 Attack+7 one)
Ring2: Rajas
Back: Athling Mantle
Waist: Speed Belt
Legs: Calmeric Trousers (Debating changing this for Haste +3 Atk +7 pants)
Feet: New Haste +4% feet (can't remember name).

This set puts me at 25% gear haste with a good chunk of attack / DA. I use 456 Enhancing Magic for +20 STR, +27 En Damage and 12~13% Temper. Putting all that together makes a pretty fast melee setup. WS set is mostly Attack / DEX options. The rule of thumb I've been using is 1 DEX = 3 attack. It's not absolute but it helps when making choices.

And lastly, the community is our biggest hurdle. We've become our own worst enemy. The out of hand rejection is what hurts the most, it prevents people from trying and experimenting. It becomes a catch 22, no one wants to melee as their afraid of getting ridiculed, people ridicule others because no one does it, and SE is extra cautious because they don't see many people doing it. I really do wish more people would go out and experiment, it's not that hard but it does require more concentration then hitting auto-attack and an occasional WS macro.

Things like this are mainly what I'm getting at. Not everyone's sitting on multiple accounts they can tether around to do things on their own. Nevermind actually being able to RDM in a low-man Abyssea consistently, but advertising yourself as a RDM who wants to melee (better) doesn't exactly inspire confidence, either (and I'm basically in agreement with the later catch 22 paragraph, and I've argued similar before). Sure, your turn should ideally come around eventually, but nobody's gonna be fooled into thinking things like GAxe, H2H, or Katana will not be getting a priority. Those would assuredly let people farm other weapons more quickly, especially since at least WAR and NIN are vital proc jobs.

Overall, I've never once said getting to the 85 phase is impossible. I just feel the over time requirement for those not blessed with the resources, and these people are far more numerous than those who refuse to play outside their little circles want us to believe, is too steep for a job that's fighting uphill for a nod toward melee to begin with. Sure, some get by playing the shout game, but that can be a gamble, either in the quality of players who volunteer or even getting people to volunteer depending on when you start looking. If a timed mob like Guku wasn't involved, someone looking at a good 2-3 hour session might be able to afford wasting an hour gathering bodies, but for the remaining 1-2, they either have to manage claim or hope they get lucky on chests, of which time to build lights is also needed, even if only 15-20m if you're efficient about it.

You could say the same thing about Composure, if Wiki is to be believed, they offer the exact same degree of performance increase speaking strictly of melee.

Red Mage is a job that wins fights by manipulations that even slips into degrees. Even if Gravity isn't a stellar spell. It's a tool in our set. Using it + Composure is nearly Accuracy Bonus II, even if half of that is shared by the party.

"Should be capping Accuracy" is an opinion that, I've found, rarely connects with fact. Some enemies have more evasion than others, and if you don't have the time to manipulate your macros/macro sets to compensate, Gravity becomes a usable tool again.

Again, it's 5% if you're not capped. It deserves no less of a mention than Enspell IIs or composure.

Edited, Oct 11th 2011 1:54pm by Hyrist

You're flame-baiting again Cid. You know well the context in which I was making that statement, (it's not JUST fodder mobs in which you can cast gravity upon)yet you choose to assume that to try to put me down. You really have to watch that, cause that short statement is exactly the same thing Rog did to other people.

However, you can cap accuracy against most fodder mobs and still end up short of the mark on cap on others. Thief and Ninja type mobs are prime examples of this.

This isn't even touching the NM situation in which we argue over constantly. Even the lower tiers can have above average evasion that even causes dedicated DDs to not have capped accuracy on.

Edited, Oct 11th 2011 2:07pm by Hyrist

Are you offering one to anyone to who happens to be in such a situation? Because the implication that it's easy for anyone to just up and find a good linkshell is as ludicrous as Empyrean weapons being standard equipment.

How so? Well, in the FFXI I play, it's rare people do things for others for free. Be it gil, other loot from the same targets, or later favors, most everything has a price. By all means, sit there and tell people with a straight face that someone should be able to hop from shell to shell, finding that perfect balance of activity that matches their schedule along with enough synergistic personalities without being placed last in line or needing to earn their keep by getting who knows what for others first for some unknown period of time. And all that "progress" can be lost in an instant at no fault of the individual.

Christ, I'm reminded of the guy who accused me of never doing anything in my LS despite for the year and a half he was away, I had a 95%+ attendance rate to all of our Dynamis and Einherjar runs with an in-shell Limbus and Nyzul group on the side with the occasional Salvage run post-Ein (much as I hate Salvage). On top of that, I'd be at HNMs when able and would help with things when people actually asked me to. Yet, since this guy was in another time zone and rarely saw me on when he was, I was the @#%^ing scum of the earth when I dared ask for anything on my end. And the sad thing is, some would side with him if only because they played with him more thanks to their own schedules conflicting with mine. Didn't matter we were the same group, went through the same application process, helped others get their own stuff, and then some. Linkshells, cliques, whatever you wanna call 'em, getting a good one that suits you simply isn't a matter of wanting it. Luck is a factor in any person's progress with this game, socially and statistically.

Apparently sympathizing and understanding people in such positions is problematic, though. Or maybe the canned response is, "Suck less."