RDM update stuffFollow

New spells: Gain-STR, and Temper. Gain-STR is just like any other gain spells, currently I am pushing about +15 from my gain spells. Temper gives us double attack.

New ability: Spontainity = this is chainspell for a single spell, useable once every 10 minutes.
New gear I am not too sure about, however this update has pushed my evasion on rdm up past the 300 mark without having to gear for it which is great.

We also got access to Raise2 and Thunder IV.

Edited, Sep 25th 2011 3:49am by Delfibabe

Edited, Sep 25th 2011 4:19am by Delfibabe

Well they listed mostly everything from the test server already.

Gear wise, we got some really nice new haste +4% feet. Cure +4% cape and a few good nuking pieces. Expect everything to have outrageous prices, it all seems to be from VWNM, WoE or the new HKCNM fights. VWNM and WoE have horrible drop rates, worse then salvage could ever be.

I haven't gotten around to getting Temper yet, but Spontaneity is pretty fun. You can use it on any party member, so it's pretty useful to pop onto the BLM trying to proc with an AM. Insta-cast Freeze ftw.

Edited, Sep 26th 2011 3:02pm by AshOnMyTomatoes

Temper rocks and from what I can see it effects both hands and WS, but need further testing to confirm. Also seems to scale pretty well with Enhancing magic. Gain-STR is epic now.

Biggest hit to /WAR is losing 30% DW which amounts to a 42.8% loss in melee DPS, and a loss of a hit on CDC or Evis.

I wouldn't use sentinel shield, instead I'd go with Viking Shield for the +12 attack. Unless your talking bard buffs, then I'd have to do more math.

From everything I've seen Temper is straight Double Attack, it's an extra equipment slot that gives a bonus based on your enhancing magic skill. The 12~13 that was measured was with 456 Skill, not easy to reach but not that hard either. Once I get my Hykos Robe I can bump up a tier to 21 STR and 28 enspell, and possible a Temper tier as well (if my suspicions are correct).

I'm theorizing that Temper is the exact same formula as Gain-Star, except its halved for 0.5 DA per 10 enhancing magic after 300. 456-300 = 156/10 = 15.6[15]/2 = 7.5 +5 = 12.5, which is right where it was tested at. Need more testing to verify though. I could be wrong and we just happened to hit a certain number.

Also DA suffers diminishing returns not increasing. Temper spell makes /WAR worth less then it was previously, not worth more.

Currently my RDM/NIN is at 23 DA with temper. Going from 23 to 33 with /WAR would be a. 133/123 = 1.081, 8.1% increase in DPS.

Not bad, but the real worth of /WAR is Bergressor.

A note about aggressor, you don't factor in the acc as an average like you do the attack. To properly take advantage of it you need to do what the WAR's do, modify your TP set to include an aggressor up and aggressor down setup. When its up (3/5) you wear less acc in favor of something else, when it's down (2/5) you wear more acc to compensate. Thus you stay at approx the same hit rate but can transform Aggressor into other stats. Accuracy is easy to cap now, Pizza pretty much does it, otherwise Sushi is still king.

What



The reason you fail to understand this concept is because you're looking at gear/stats in a vacuum. Assuming all else is equal, adding 5% DA from 0% or 50% base adds the same static amount of damage, yes. The problem is, most players choose to equip every slot possible and use buffs as they are available, which means that adding more DA tends to reduce other beneficial stats in the process. This is where the diminishing returns aspect comes in; you have to compare that static amount of DA damage against your total DPS before and after, and the fact that the amount of DA possessed is irrespective of the damage added by each additional point added ensures that each additional point added translates to a decreasing percentage of your total DPS. This is why the rule is to cap Haste all the time, every time, before worrying about anything else; it has increasing returns right up to the cap, because each point added becomes a larger % of the previous DPS total; while stats like DA are great up until a certain plateau, where you tend to find more DPS per slot by looking at other stats.

TL;DR: When people say 'decreasing returns' they aren't saying the stat gets weaker when adding more of it; simply that it does not compound on itself like Haste does.

Handy visual aid:

DA 0%, 100 attacks
DA +5%, 105 attacks = +5% DPS

DA 50%, 150 attacks
DA +5%, 155 attacks = +3.33% DPS

Same amount of DA, less DPS increase = diminishing returns.

You can debate the semantics and/or logic of it all you want, but it's the correct way to compare gear when min/maxing is your goal.



Precisely. Every stat is subject to diminishing returns, either because static gains equate to static gains which diminish in value as the base increases, or because a cap exists; usually both. Not taking this into consideration when comparing gear is about the most basic, fundamental mistake you can make.

Edited, Sep 27th 2011 10:51pm by LyltiaofLakshmi

Did you just recommend not gearing for haste?

Hyrist, pretty much all stats in the game have diminishing returns over time except haste and accuracy. Accuracy is linear until it caps @95% and haste becomes exponential. Diminishing returns doesn't mean don't equip the best gear you can, but often people say stuff like "hey I have so much DA so I should equip MORE DA", as in using the existence of current DA to justify additional DA gear thinking it'll be come "more gooderer". When in actuality having DA already in your gear set diminishes the overall contribution of any additional DA gear. Now additional DA might still be the best option in-slot, but it's not better because you already have some. WAR's been fighting this misunderstanding for years now "hey WAR has DA right, so that means I should equip MORE DA cause it's betterer".

Haste's increasing returns is the biggest reason we pile it on, it actually gets better the more you add vs other stats which tend to diminish.

And RDD's trolling ya'll again I see. Assuming you already have CDC, then /NIN crush's /WAR in both melee damage and WS damage. /WAR's two biggest advantages is Vorpal Blade + Berserk. VB is an awesome WS and Berserk is a +% instead of a static number.

You have yourself to blame, and your entire Anti-Melee crowd.

"RDM Dosen't do enough damage justify the TP it feeds."

What does a RDM lack that other Sword Weilders have?

Answer: Attack.

We can sub for the proper WSes (Or have the appropriate weapon, IE Almace.)
We can equip the same weapons as any primary Sword Weilder (Better.)

We can alter our stats to match or better the opponent in terms of STR now, DEX later. We now also have native Double Attack for our Weapon Skills.

So... what's the answer to 'Yer feeding the mob TP!'?

Attack.

Sure, we do less DPS over time, but bar none having appropriate attack sweeps the legs out from under the TP argument crowd as yould be pushing for the absolute maxim damage per TP a Sword Class in general could do.

I'm not saying it's a GOOD idea. But it's something that we need to consider in the back of our mind when everyone says "Haste, Accuracy, attack Speed." When everyone screams how terrible RDM's Damage per Hit is, it's the best way to troll that argument.


Then again, if we had good WS numbers, nobody would care what our per hit damage would be, BNS and all.



Edited, Sep 30th 2011 10:28am by Hyrist

Hahahaha I am part of the anti melee crowd now, Hyrist has really gone off the deep end it seems. (also 2004 called they want their DD mentality back.)


Edited, Sep 30th 2011 12:15pm by rdmcandie

Now THAT's a troll post if I've ever seen one.

:3

Me, take these forums seriously? After 9 years of arguing?

You SURE I'm not serious?


Ok, let's make this clear for you people.

I'm more than tired of the idiotic debates surrounding melee. I mock the sh*t out of the ass backwards logic people put up as arguments against it.

I bait because this is exactly what everyone else is doing to each other when they argue whatever 'screaming at the top of my lungs with a megaphone and a soap box' arguments do.

Have you LOOKED at the official boards? Somehow they think Temper prevented any sort of Mage Update for RDM... at the same time they got Spontaneity. Let's not get into the gear.

I feel like John Lennon rapping against Bill O'Riley.

It's to the point where people can't even talk about what they desire for the job anymore because 'whaah we won't get what we want if they give you your stuff!' which is ridiculous. The level of sheer insanity now stated over a 9 year old video game is nothing short of the worst kind of pathetic.

WHHHAAAAAH DON'T RELEASE THE TANOOKI SUIT! BUFF THE FIRE FLOWER IT DOESN'T BOUNCE HIGH ENOUGH!

WHY ARE YOU USING THE HAMMER BROTHERS SUIT!? GIMP!

These are the arguments I see. And then they complain about "You're effecting the players who play with you", speaking on behalf of the people I've known for years, that they've never even known.

Cid, you often say "Do you and I even play the same game?"

Here's the short answer: No, We don't. I play with people who actually treat their fellow players with respect to their choices and work WITH them instead of spend their side time arguing that their job shouldn't be meleeing against HNMs when they're wanting to fight non-boss mobs.

They tell me when they're too nervous for me to start swinging at it, and I have no problem. Often if I know the mob, I'll preempt them and tell them I don't want to melee it.

But I don't spend my time on an event that's just "NM Tiers version 6"(or is it the 7th? Sky, Sea, ZNM, VNM, Abyssea.... did Arch mobs come after Voidwatch or before?) with poor, lopsided rewards that cram items that aren't even for your desired job down your throat with no option to trade between your fellow friends (even though Abyssea chests can be distributed into treasure pool... really SE?). Yet people without fail consider this the only endgame, when revamps for pretty much all the old events are coming down the line.

I don't consider spending time on fodder mobs 'a waste of time' or 'mobs that don't matter.'

I enjoy trouble revolving around over-pulling a bunch of crap-shoot mobs that are dangerous in numbers as much as I enjoy a good Battlefield Notorious Monster fight. Missions and storyline fights are the best.

But people absolutely insist that I only play their way, or that updates for the game should only be featuring the content they do. And that's both selfish and crazy. And it deserves to be trolled, and trolled hard.

The amount of uproar over Temper put the nail in the coffin for me. I've really stopped carrying about the forum community at large. There's no reason to put a care into what most of you say as it's the same rhetoric over and over again, and barely any discussion about actual progress without devolving into another hate-fest over things we view differently.

OF COURSE I value haste. But I lament the fact that balancing it on RDM comes at the cost of so many other stats. I love the fact that Gain STR helps out in this, I want desperately to get Temper to try, soon as the scrolls stop being mad expensive.

I WANT enhancing and enfeebling improvements. Hell I want healing improvements (I just don't think Cure V is the appropriate answer.)

But I'm some sort of freak or retard because I want Melee improvements as well? Or because I take pleasure in pushing a weaker aspect of the job? That's how bad it has gotten. This isn't a competitiveness game, it shouldn't be treated like one. Yet, I find the community here comparable to the one on League of Legends, which is bad even for MOBA forums, let alone a PVE MMO.

So ya, keep on your toes. I'm going to make you re-explain some mechanics that aren't necessarily common knowledge to a normal casual player. Hopefully by putting up ideas that are more questionable rather than just plain 'bad'. Which is kinda hard, given I don't want you guys to argue with each other.

Just me.

So much mad.

and this is why you compare gear in the manner that Lyl explained. The one that you jumped all over her for. The one that people have been using for 9 years to determine if certain items were more efficient than others.

(as for the ASA vs Cal question, if you lose about 6% hit rate the ASA pants will be better, if you lose 5% they will be about the same, if you lose 4% then Cal pants will be better.)

Trying to paint yourself a martyr doesn't make you look right; it makes you look batsh*t crazy.

The only thing you got called out for in this thread was your faulty understanding of how math works, which was corrected; how anything you ranted about in that essay has anything to do with that is beyond me.. hence:

What made you mad, exactly? The only thing you were corrected on was the method by which to compare gear using math, which is non-arguable; hell, we were even nice about it when we explained it to you, and you chose to respond with a long-ass rant that had precisely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Besides, you've already said all that same sh*t several times before in several different threads; you made your point already.(People that use math to optimize their characters as opposed to gearing/strategizing for "fun" (whatever that means) are elitist pricks and they make you mad.) Message received; now kindly stop trashing up every thread you post in with the same tired bullsh*t.

I looked for quite a while, and found nothing substantial. Perhaps I was using the wrong words.

I find this all funny coming from you RCD, seeming you were the one who instantly jumped on the high horse defending the previous locked topic 'because it created good information.'

But when I start making comments that would, you know, get you to discuss information that would be helpful for the people at large, you insult with "Google is hard!"

Where the hell are the efforts to gather information for people in the community? It's not what's happened to me that's sad, it's whats happened to us. This community used to be tight, working together in spite of the arguments, and willing to share information freely. Now it's an insult if you don't automatically know everything, search everything themselves... when many of the very search engines we use, are out of date and filled with misinformation.

This is why I'm mad and crazy right now. Because you guys seriously stopped caring about everything but making yourselves look good. Which helps nobody. It's an absolute bitchfest about what everyone wants for themselves and that topped with working customer service has killed all my desire to give a damn about people on forums. It's a flood of self-entitled @#%^wits who's answer to everything is insult first, troll after, and if that doesn't work, get your buddies to come in and troll some more.

It's killed the game for me more than once, changing a mere annoyance into a seething hatred.



But you want the old Hyrist? Let's change gears:

I've noticed that there's not a single spreadsheet on that system for RDM. Sure, we've got one for PLD that can be modified, but why has no one in the RDM community modified and re-posted for RDM yet?

Additionally, Windows does not come with Excel anymore, so is there a free program in which we can list? (Sure, it can be googled but I'm wondering if there is one the community already uses.)




Edited, Oct 3rd 2011 5:15pm by Hyrist

Thank you muchly.

Once you've got those things gone I'd love a copy of it to help with choices/improvements.

Time management is the biggest issue I've got right now. I've got friends on several different gaming sites/hobbies all vying for what free time I've got (which isn't much given my schedule.) And while I can post on forums like these during my work hours (even that however is starting to grate at my boss, so don't know how long that'll hold up.) when it comes to home time. When I wanna do FFXI, I'd rather be playing the game than mulling over calculations. So having that worksheet handy will be very much appreciated.

Still, slight progress in getting Temper and Gain STR waiting for me when I hit appropriate levels. Haven't had much time for anything other than campaign though, and I'm weeping at my Enhancing skill during it. (Picked up a Griffinclaw though... Fun stuff. Now onto the next sword! [I collect])

Time for a healthy diet of Stuffed Pitarus while skilling up during GoV.

Edited, Oct 3rd 2011 7:29pm by Hyrist

I didn't look for DPS Spreadsheets, which was my folly.

I looked up "Damage Calculator" which gave me a bunch of bad hits, and this Which is outdated.

Looking it over a second time I do see the link to what you stated on FFXI Pro, but that result wasn't there when I originally looked. (That or I overlooked it.)

Either case, before Rog was banned, we were collecting these resources together, easily googeled or not, and putting them somewhere accessible for people.

Regardless of our opinions of each other, we really should be hand feeding people this info out of the interest of of the community as a whole, especially with Wikis not being kept up to date, or filled with misinformation. (Temper STILL says main hand only, fire Element on GE and Wikia says it doesn't effect Weapon Skills (though we've verified otherwise). I think it'd be a good idea to redouble our efforts in getting this info together again.

"You should be able to look it up." is not a valid excuse for not sharing info. It's just an excuse to be insulting, and not a good one either. But that's a matter of opinion.

I'm of the opinion that having a discussion on the sources for such things you trust, or that are kept up to date is a valid, helpful discussion for the boards. It seems that the information these days is only spreading well through word of mouth right now, so you'll pardon me of I default to that until things are tidied up.

Moving on. Any other observations as to the update? My thoughts on Temper will be comming shortly. (Likely this weekend.)

Convince yourself of whatever you want. Funny how Kinimatics agreed with my point, and how the individual I was arguing with their stance once he posted exactly my point in a different manner.

I may love to argue, but you two seem to love to insult people. You might have said "What ever happened to you, Hyrist, you use to be level headded?" to me, but neither of you have ever been any different, and that's not a compliment.

I've got a long record of being argumentative, but rarely do I intentionally piss someone off. My view that WHM should remain the one job who can use Cure V to their hearts content is not alone. That spell is innately broken, always has been. It's only been justified in WHM's hands because they are supposed to be the best healers in the game, and I was dumbfounded when they came out with VI. (Luckily, that spell IS balanced out by it's cost.)

But it's not to say I believe RDM should never be a coherent healer ever. I'm saying that giving it a spike healing over giving it the ability to prevent the damage that's making the NEED for such spike healing is terrible, terrible logic, and not only does it threaten to mute out anything unique on RDM for good, but it harms the damage recovery dichotomy in general.

Now back onto subject matter.

Got to play around with Temper (good run in campaign got me multiple 9k rounds.)


A bit late, but I can verify that both Wikia and Gamer Escape is wrong, and back up what Seriha and Savelle have said, Temper is straight up Double Attack. It works on the offhand same as the main hand. And it works on weaponskills. If I need to I've got a 30 second bit I can post on You-Tube, but I really doubt I have to in this case as the spell has been public for so long now.

Edited, Oct 6th 2011 3:46am by Hyrist

Edited, Oct 6th 2011 3:46am by Hyrist

Alright guys, stop it with the flaming and trolling. I swear you guys certainly know how to drive a Rdm topic into the ground by berating one another. Like I've tried saying before, either argue the topic at hand (in this case the changes Rdm got this update) and leave it at that. Don't start just going around calling people trolls and flaming them left and right, cause in the end, you're only hurting yourself.

Lyltia, in regards to your comment as to why that post had been left up there, no one reported it. As much as I'd like to be able to, I can't read every single post in all the XI forums while also performing my other duties to the site as well as juggle off-site stuff. I'm only one man, so that's why the report topic button is there, to be used when someone feels that a post or topic is in need of administrative action or if a person or persons are doing something against forum rules.

Edited, Oct 6th 2011 8:38am by Vlorsutes