Job Adjustmentｓ ManifestoFollow

I could be reading WAY too far into that post but there is a glimmer of light.

"This is going to be a self-target spell only and cannot be made into an AoE spell via SCH's Accession. "

Does this imply that there might be some other method in the future where Temper can be turned into an AoE spell or is just clarification that it won't work with that ability.

Time will tell I guess.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2011 3:31pm by SlashAnonymous

Seriha, do you agree in theory that if RDM hybrid were buffed by SE and excepted that other hybrid jobs wouldn't suffer? I'm including our new spell temper into the mix, not as a self buff, but party buff reason. I brought up WHM as my prime example of this. Hyrist himself just admitted that if RDM had Cure V and Temper party buffs that RDM could replace WHM again on most things. I know to some this might seem obvious, but we must examine balance prior to any changes to our status.

What game are you playing? In the old days, RDM and WHM used to complement each other back around those 5k a hour parties. This was pre-TOAU. It was the player base min/maxing and subbing /nin on birds with BRDs that led to the death of WHM healing for awhile. Our MP efficiency as you put it was the reason, but you're totally ignoring the community's reasons. How often did you see RDM and WHM in the same party of 6 for an experience party or something regular like that? You see it in those mega alliances maybe, but that's about it. If BLU already had a hybrid slot, why would RDM be standing up there right next to them. If we needed another NON DD at the front lines, I know most people would rather grab another PLD or NIN tank for emergency reasons. PLD's can heal almost as good as RDM too until their mana runs out. The point is people wouldn't accept both classes on the front lines because of the things RDM can do in the back line. That alliance leader would throw the RDM in a random healing slot and the BLU as a hybrid support. Like it or not, RDM is WHM's back-up bitch and it always has since I played this game.

Prove to me I'm wrong that RDM and BLU aren't basically the same job and I'll consider your points. Now just because RDM has Phalanx II and BLU has AOE stoneksin doesn't mean that's a difference. I'm talking about support purposes so that counts under buffs. Also understand the playerbase looks to min/max performance so explain your way out of 2 hybrids. I know you didn't exactly say that, but if RDM isn't poised to steal BLU's slot, then they must be hybrids together at the same time.

If you want to paint with broad strokes and call BLU and RDM similar simply because they're sword-wielding mages with MP pools, then yeah, mission accomplished. I'm technically okay with BLUs doing more damage both physically and "magically" (most of their good damage spells being physical, after all) in exchange for our broader support options and more robust versatility, but the gap between them is a bit too big, especially since BLUs can get DW2 without need to sub NIN or DNC while still maintaining EX WS access. They pretty much match us on personal Refresh between Battery Charge, Auto-Refresh, and good body pieces. They're also not quite so mired in personal casting with BC and AW lasting 5m. CA pretty much offsets our Enspells when they self-SC and Efflux is some bonus damage every few minutes. Situational pros and cons will spring up between each job from there, but short of status removals from /WHM or /SCH, with a bit of foresight, a BLU can engage in most any situation without too much difficulty, and they've only gotten better since 75.

And I still can't say it enough, but Dream Flower and Winds of Promyvion are awesome spells.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2011 8:07pm by Seriha

Meanwhile, watching Temper cause so many flared... tempers is almost like a sweet dessert after my dinner out. All that's left is to figure out potency and the looming concern of stacking with Enspells since it was said, perhaps erroneously, that Temper was a new enspell.

I'll reserve judgment on Temper til I see it in action... but given that it'll be self-cast only, and the dev team hasn't announced any new party-cast enhancing magic, it's pretty valid to wonder why they'd say one thing in the manifesto and subsequently ignore it.

Regardless, the puzzle is still missing some pieces; until the update is live we really don't know sh*t. Y'all ought to save your energy til then so you can bitch about it good and proper, assuming it becomes necessary.

If you're right, then RDM gets a new toy to play with that is neat for soloing and low man "friend" groups.

If you're wrong, RDM gains a new spell that makes the job viable to group leaders when they already have some mage support.

So pick your poison I say.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!

I revel in all the butthurt about Temper being self cast only. While I do think it'd be best if it were at least be made AE with /sch, I'm still fine with it this way.

Now we just need to see what they do where weapon skills and proficiencies are concerned.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2011 10:45pm by Deedlitchan

rcd,

You realize your referring to two distinctly separate parts of the "community" right? The first being the older veteran RDM's who want the job to do something other then cycle-bot spam, the second being the non-RDM's or leveled-rdm-for-invites group who see's RDM as WHM-1 and is perfectly fine having another RDM cycle buffs on them. Ultimately this is like listening to the MNK's for info on what RDM should get, their instant response is "more buffs they can put on me". What your seeing on the boards is all the BG'ers and members from other job's forums jump over into the RDM forum in an attempt to create the illusion of negative feedback, they want SE to change it to other-targetable so RDM be forced to buff those posters. Seeing as SE's been tracking this discussion for quite some time, I don't see them being fooled by such tactics.

You realize this is a bullsh*t argument right?

Anyone who suggests things you don't agree with couldn't possibly have leveled Red Mage to play Red Mage. Uh huh. Sure.

This kind of sh*t is precisely why it's impossible for me to take anything you say seriously.

I entered Vanadiel with an Onion Dagger in one hand and a scroll of Dia in the other.

It's why I find saevel's argument to be utter bullsh*t. I picked it, ran with it and fell in love with the job before I even knew what merits or HNMs were. But because my adoration of Red Mage doesn't fit his overly niche vision I'm branded as some sort of heretic.

Yet some want to do the same to us, just replace heretic with retard or whatever flavor word that compels at that given moment. It's a bunch of cyclical bull.

You've got your head in the clouds if you've never noticed people telling RDMs how the job should be played without them being willing to touch it themselves. I can very much see the anger from these types who suddenly feel cheated out of Temper and of course feel it's wasted because it doesn't fit their view of what RDM is or should be. I dare say it's a similar mindset that makes playing supportive roles in MMOs unpopular compared to tanks or damage dealers. Group screws up? It's your fault. Pull out an awesome victory? It's rarely the support that gets the glory. It's stressful, thankless work and FFXI's design doesn't really help that any.

Overall, this isn't the first you've gotten in a tizzy over a general statement conflicting your own experiences. Join the club. I'm curious what inspired you to pick the job to begin with, because if you didn't know about merits or HNMs, even the concept of being a good soloist would be left incredibly vague. You had to have read something somewhere, or at the very least came in with some kind of preconceived notions, biased toward one style or not, that fundamentally don't make you all that different from us. Nobody doubts your fondness for RDM, wherever those motivations lie, but some might wonder why you seem so content on holding others who also love the job back.

If all it really boils down to is feelings of impossibility or wasting dev time, all I can say is you're wrong. PS2 limitations might be a convenient excuse at times for various game impossibilities, but that's not really what's been affecting RDM regardless of play style. We can all sympathize with feelings of the devs wasting time or even lacking resources to get sh*t done, but let's not confuse wasting with different sets of priorities. Gouging our own eyes out isn't going to get them to be more ambitious. Frankly, all jobs should be pissed about the stagnation and imbalances that have plagued the game over the years. Some speak out, sure. Some get branded as whiners, you bet. Some even get "fans" that love to trash talk behind their back. But if there is ever any ounce of truth in a complaint, it is not a waste to investigate. SE doing nothing for an issue is something that we, as players and customers, should not tolerate. If it means shoving the inaccuracies of the Manifesto down SE's throat, go for it. I'd actually like them to tell the truth about RDM and their intentions for once, too. And if the pro-casters are truly the sizable majority they like to claim to be, unite and be productive toward your cause instead of destructive toward the pro-melee. As I've tried to say before, our goals aren't exactly mutually exclusive.

Actually, what I've seen is that pro-melee RDM are the minority amongst people who still consider themselves RDM mains, but when I talk to people who have quit the job before hitting 75, quit near ToAU release, and people who haven't played FFXI or quit the game early on, they usually say they think RDM in FFXI is weirdly mage-only.

There's a reason why this culture of shame regarding RDM melee has developed--because left to their own devices, almost all new RDMs* assume it's part of the job right off the bat. Only the hardcore endgamers seem to consider otherwise.

At any rate, it's not like the job's track record has done much to encourage melee RDMs to stay RDMs.

*"New RDMs" meaning players new to the game picking up RDM, not veterans who already know how the job is expected to be played in FFXI.

Edited, Aug 24th 2011 1:20pm by Aliekber

I'd call forum-goers in general a minority. Some people just play, some might visit but just lurk. Doesn't mean they have nothing to say, but maybe someone else just said it for 'em so they don't feel the need. I know I'm not always the most liked, but pretty much anything I've said over the years toward RDM has an origin in personal experience, watching other people speak on the job (good and bad), or seeing how others react to another RDM's performance when I was on another job, myself. No single player's experiences will be exact with another. Heck, you had the benefit of starting the game off with a friend. I started solo in PC beta on MNK, wasn't terribly impressed, but picked the game up to try and play with a net buddy. He didn't make it past the first month and I wound up rerolling on Fairy all by my lonesome since I didn't exactly wanna waste a $50 buy. I'd say it was a time when wikis weren't exactly the norm and even this site was in its infancy in terms of game info. All I really had to go on was things like the site blurb and past FF games. As someone that liked to dabble in everything, it also seemed like a good choice. It just started getting awkward when "everything" started turning into "one thing" that things got iffy. Apparently I wasn't alone in the sentiment, both on boards and with some RDMs I'd bumped into.

Nonetheless, I remember the slow grinds, unlucking my sub, fetching Kazham keys, rank missions, limit breaks, farm the @#%^ out of silk thread to afford Refresh and Phalanx, getting AF, working on crafts, and all that jazz. The game was certainly different then compared to now, and at times I feel like some issues just get blown off because someone can go from 30 to 90 in a day. As an old player, I can appreciate that potential and have even taken advantage of it to broaden possibilities in play with 17/20 jobs at 90, but at the same time, even if the accepted play style for RDM hasn't changed that much, those new to the job don't need to put their nose to the grindstone as much, and thus might not be as frazzled by cycles, know what old-school Dynamis was like chasing snippy BLMs down for Refresh, tried to solo heal a wingy Nidhogg, and so on. It's been a definite balancing act between work and play where, if the play only comes when I'm alone, I wonder why I'm on an MMO. Regardless, I don't yearn for those days again, or even the ones where giant alliances are required. In effect, I've done the whole "Level another job!" thing, and I'd still like to come home to RDM, as overpowered or "worthless" as it may be with how fickle player opinion is.

Click their name, click view profile, click characters, see 99 War, 99 Nin, 99 Mnk.

Sure they might have other jobs leveled then those top 3, but statistically speaking if someone has 3 heavy DD jobs listed as their top 3 characters the chances are that they don't play Rdm seriously.

My profile lists PLD as my top job even though I've probably played it the least out of all my jobs. I'm too lazy to change it, though, and I'd imagine that's not uncommon.

And this is how you can tell the two groups I mentioned before apart, their attitude towards the job and the mechanics of actually playing it. Look at the ones who are saying things like "epic fail" and "waste of a spell", their not RDM's and have zero intention of every playing the job. To them it's just another 99 for FFXIAH points, or as a method of getting merits or HNM access (when we did those pre-abyssea). They feel slighted because it's a spell that they'll never get cast on them, their numbers won't be enhanced through it, they can't force another player to cast it on them. Now compare this to the second group who may not necessarily melee on RDM, but still doesn't want another cycled spell. They actually play the job and know the horrific experience of cycle's upon cycles with people yelling at you if haste drops for 5s while your casting stoneskin, reraise or even *gasp* nuking. Anyone who's played RDM more then "abyssea burned" knows that having Temper cast like Haste will just have us cycling it onto everyone else. It'll because exactly like Haste, where every melee assumes they have it 24/7 and yell if they don't have it. Your MNKs, WARs, DRKs, BLUs, SAMs, and DRGs will redo their numbers with the assumption of (X% DA from Temper) and get pissed if they don't have it on. Exactly like they currently do their builds with the assumption of 15% Haste spell present even though they have no capability to cast it on themselves. This group of RDM's wants Temper to be aoeable or otherwise non-cyclable, we don't want to yelled at more for letter Temper drop for 5s while we cast stoneskin, or for being used a Temper-bots along with the Haste and Refresh-bots we're already forced into.

Seriously, let someone come on and shoot their mouth off on how they "enjoy" cycling a bunch of spells on 4~5 party members one at a time, and that they would just love it if SE gave them another spell to throw on the stack. I know some of your guys like pain, but I don't believe for a second that your bat sh!t crazy.

inb4 Temper not stacking with Enspells. I actually see this happening, too. I kinda hope it does happen, because the ensuing sh*tstorm will be HILARIOUS to watch.

I have become such a sadistic bastard, I swear.

I am unable to see what logic there is in your argument here. Comparing something new like Temper to Tier III nukes is folly. Their getting Tier IIIs is the same reason we're getting Tier IVs and Black Mage getting Vs, which is little more than getting the next tier up in spells to go with a new span of level caps. If a self cast Temper doesn't mean they're thinking about improving Red Mage's frontline capacity, then what does it mean?

Basically this is what I meant. Composure is another example. I won't argue it's not good for melee because it is, but 99% of the time we use it for longer self buffs, not melee ACC. En-spell II and those absorb spells are just a few more RDM examples. A new toy for soloing/messing around is hardly reason for a veteran RDM to get excited IF they only play RDM in groups that don't use it. I used en-spell more on /sch AOEing it that I did for my own uses. DRK's tier III nukes are just SE's way of giving them something they naturally should have. Ironically, Temper is an original RED WIZARD spell dating all the way back to FF1 if my memory is right. It's late so don't hold me to it.

The bottom line is we need new gear that is made for the front lines kinda like what BLU got with their AF3. It doesn't have to be super melee "OMGWTFBBQ" dmg gear, but it does need to serve a purpose to make it "worth it" to a group to have you up there. If more RDM's could give me a viable reason besides they want to, I'd be more willing to listen to their side. IMO, we need a lot of work to make that happen. It's not our fault, SE has clearly forgot about us. Temper for all intensive purposes is a new toy, nothing more.

Composure a "toy" *blink* *blink*...

Composure is completely bad a$$ for melee builds, SE even had to throw in the buff on Emp Armor to give the mage side a boost too. My standard "melee" buff set includes

Haste
Refresh II
Enspell (or II if I'm /DRK single wielding)
Skin
Phalanx
Gain-MND (to be replaced by Gain-STR soon)

Then based on where I'm fighting or what we're doing I may also have on,

Barspell element
Barspell status ailment
Spikes

Now throw Temper onto that top list in the upcoming update, assuming it stacks with enspell.

That is a ridiculous amount of self buffs to recycle every 3min, and their not JA buffs their not instant use. Composure allows me to keep them on 300% longer, which means I only have to spend 33% of the time self buffing that I would of had to otherwise. That alone makes it worth it to have. The free accuracy is just icing on the cake.

I'm all for an aoe Temper or a way to share our effects with others, but that's share not sacrifice. My motivation has absolutely ZERO to do with invite rates, that is a sh*tty way to measure anything. A BRD used to get mega instant invite rates, yet was one of the most boring jobs in the game and most of them just leveled it to get HNM / Merits. It's a rare thing to find a dedicated BRD, someone who tries to get the most out of the job and perfect it. I'm concerned with RDM's not being shunted back into the Haste / Refresh bot role, the mega refresh available in Abyssea has freed us of that requirement even as Abyssea's proc requirement made us as desirable as the DRKs, DRGs or anyone (not-WAR WHM BLM NIN THF). Personally our mage side is pretty well set, we need more stat level debuffs and access to the full regen line of spells with a special heavy Regen near the end.

You have to have Composure up to activate our AF3+2 Set bonus, so it's less a toy, and more an ability you keep on when not nuking or /NIN soloing. It's pretty awesome whether you're frontline or backline. I'd expect to see further Enhancing duration-increasing gear in the future, as it's pretty much the only way to reduce the drudgery of cycles without eliminating them entirely by giving us AoE-ability.

Composure's triple duration and Acc bonuses can't be shared with others, why isn't it a steaming pile of crap as well?