Race for RedmageFollow

That all depends on what you're doing. I've been in numerous scenarios as an Elvaan where I was down to less than 200 hp. Of course MP is much easier to be an issue because you can easily spam it without getting hate. Even then it's easy to make up for lost/low mp.

As I said before, it all depends on your playing style. For me, I do a lot of melee solo. In those cases, hp means a lot. MP keeps you alive, but no HP means you're dead.

I'd still say the only valid argument to be made for a Race On Red Mage is which one looks the best to you.

It's an identity you are going to be assuming for many a year. Choosing it basted on stats then determine you don't like how it looks only gives you two options, Reroll, or .dat hack. Where as having problems with stats, just changes what gear you wear.

If you have 3K MP and 0 HP there is probably a reason you are dead. #1 being you didnt cure yourself. #2 being you didnt even try and use convert to save your life (ya convert does work the other way as well.)

MP is the most important stat for any mage related job in the game period. Solo, Group, Frontline, Backline. If you don't understand why, then it explains why you are dead with 3K mp.

The only time being down to 200 HP matters in a race argument is if it happened from one attack. Otherwise, it just means you or your healer didn't react in a timely fashion and any race, Taru or Galka, is just as likely to die.

If you can't cast, any race is just as likely to die.

But you eventually can, so it's not equally likely. You don't know how many hits you might take before you get a spell off nor how much damage it might take. If you get down to 300-ish hp, then your race and gear set up (mp rings) either saved you or killed you.

I can and frequently will burn an entire mp pool even with Minikin and augmented Refresh 2, without Chainspell, because nuking kills things. So push the envelope, RDM can handle getting hate, and nukes will eat MP.


And yet player preparedness and timing will still account for more in that situation. Yours is a sometimes possibility that might let you react maybe. Anybody can theorycraft those situations. Just like I can theorycraft a situation where I was hit by an AoE and freak triple crit hits and oh my gosh if I only had 200 MP extra to cure and rebuff!

That's why in a race debate it only matters the frequency a single attack drops that Galka or Elvaan to 200ish HP. That just happens, it's not tailored to any argument bias.

Because everyone has Badelaire/Almace, amirte? But every RDM can nuke. I was talking about max MP, but you did conveniently ignore the fact that I quoted what I wanted to refer to, and since merits are ancillary to it, let's include them. For a concrete, repeatable example, when I solo Ovni (which a lot of RDMs might want to do for +2s now), you can burn through a pool, Convert, and burn through another pool in nukes for expediency's sake. It's just easier that way. Now a Taru with MP merits compared to a Galka with HP merits, I'll get off easily 1-2 more nuke, or have extra HP during convert where an AoE stripping shadows and breaking stoneskin followed by an attack won't kill me for the same number of nukes.

Abyssea is by and large easymode, but make no mistake, max MP still matters.

You're really hung up on that phrase, aren't you? I guess I'll defer to your expert judgement on sayings. While an extra nuke isn't exactly groundbreaking (duh), 1-2000 damage isn't quote fingers negligible.

You have never been in a situation where your temps were gone? Used up last fight? Never? Why spend cruor on temps when Convert's free? Why waste temps before using up Convert? It's easy to coast by in Abyssea on refresh on temps, everyone does it, but I already gave one situation where your broad sweeping statement is completely false and it's not an isolated event, in Abyssea.

Edited, Jul 1st 2011 2:39pm by jlejeune

Thats besides the point, anyway. Pushing the envelope on RDM is more along the lines of Nuking 5-6 mobs a minute endlessly, not meriting HP so you can get .0 more HP from them while taking 0 damage nuking chaining 2-3 mobs at a time without chain spell. Just Sayin'.

Edited, Jul 1st 2011 10:17pm by rdmcandie

Defense, Shield procs, -%PDT, VIT, killer effects, Bio, etc etc (in addition to their obvious utility) are sound, solid forms of -%Spell interruption.

However... RDM's MP-based magic (stoneskin) linearly benefits from any amount of -%spell interruption (whereas Ninjitsu magic has an "all-or-nothing" deal with interruption gear).

Whether its situationally or religiously, some equipment slots BEG for -%Spell interruption.

If you're soloing multiple (and proportionately weaker) mobs (eg Divine Might)... you can cram defense/pdt/VIT on top of your Stoneskin casts, helping Phalanx nub-out more hits, ultimately netting you a better -%spell interruption rate than actually piling on "-%spell interruption" gear. Ironic :)

Buuuuut, ya know...
If you're tanking anything from Amikiri to, sayyyy, Vrtra... you'll wanna cram -Interruption into your Stoneskin casts because "SH*T SH*T NEED STONESKIN NOW!!1".

For anything between those two extremes... there's always a right balance.

MP regeneration is faster than it ever has been; switching my merits from MP to HP for that life-buffer seems all the more enticing...

One rule still stands:
More MP = You can do more things to mobs.
More HP = Mobs can do more things to you.

RDM has 2 pessimistic (and logical) reasons to prioritize HP over MP:
-In anticipation of opponents' offensive potential
-In anticipation of self error

I prefer optimistically addressing my casting potential by prioritizing MP over HP.

More of a "grab life by the horns" kinda feel, if you will.
:)

HP merits guard against 1-hit K.O. more than anythin.

I'd call gettin one-shotted "funny" before I'd even toy with the thought-a-bout callin it "bad".

Reckon I'd get around to callin' it both, though.
yes
sir
ee

It really depends on what you solo with your RDM. If you can nuke fast enough to deplete your MP pool to the point where you're standing around waiting on Refresh/Convert, and those MP merits would make a difference, that usually means you're not casting any/many defensive spells; ergo, the NM's offense is weak, and you should really consider meleeing instead of nuking in the first place. On the other extreme, if staying alive requires near-constant juggling of defensive/enfeebling spells and/or kiting, your opportunities to nuke are limited to the point where Refresh/Convert are able to cover your MP costs without trouble. The point being, your offensive capabilities are much more limited by the NM and requisite strategy than your MP pool. This is not to say that more MP is entirely useless; just that it is useful much less than one might think.

On the other end, your reasons for prioritizing HP over MP are sound, but the list is not complete. For example, take Faust at 75 cap. With exceptional gear, strategy, and practice, a high rate of success was entirely within reason; but no matter how good or prepared you were, things could always go wrong, and you could die in seconds at any time. Lag, be it client or server side, could contribute; maybe your girlfriend calls in the middle and you're distracted; maybe he just decides to be a complete @#%^, resist Bind and Gravity back to back, Typhoon x3, and double crit you to death. In short, it's just like accuracy; no matter how good it is, there's always a small chance of failure. The main draw of the additional HP merits is that they hedge against these rare but catastrophic failures; they won't always save you, but they will over time.

So, when comparing the two, do I spend my merits to very slightly increase my killspeed (which is already very fast) in a limited number of situations, or do I spend them to reduce what is a (completely arbitrary number, YMMV) 5% chance of losing in a "Rocks fall, everyone dies" situation to a 4% chance? It is entirely a choice of personal taste, but when given the chance to do so, hedging one's bets is never a bad idea.

You can put together a build that will guarantee you'll never be interrupted short of knockback or something similar. If you need to make absolutely certain your spell or whatever goes off you can do so.

Its funny you are all still arguing over this based on a comment i made just to push buttons. It desn't matter what @#%^ing race you choose, all that matters is if you gear properly for the task you are doing, and don't have a head of air when it comes to performing said tasks.

Funny how you think I care what your intent is. You're giving false information to someone who is asking for assistance. If you want to troll me, that's fine, I don't care. I will argue with you regardless, but don't give out false information to someone else.



That's the thing though. There is no need to intentionally "run on fumes". Anyone can spam tier IV spells, with enfeebles, buffs and etc. and run out of mp, but that doesn't mean that you're "short" on MP. If you're *intentionally* running on fumes, then that means you don't have to and the MP usage isn't necessary. Your only counter would be that it was necessary to do your job. Well, in that case, then being able to do that is no longer a feat as it's something necessary to do your job. It then becomes a problem with the job design.



That's because it seems that you're confusing multiple points. My entire point is that there are certain scenarios (i.e. solo melee) that is more conducive for races other than a Taru.

The whole argument started off as deciding which race to choose. It was argued that Taru is always the best because of MP. I countered that there are scenarios where jobs other than Taru would be better. I gave the example of solo-melee.

It takes much more work to PREVENT you from getting to 200-300 HP while solo-meleeing than it would nuking. That's simply because as solo-melee, you are constantly getting hit. That's the whole reason why I said in that scenario, you're better off as any race other than Taru, because you have more HP to withstand hits.



So, how was I wrong then?

This is so wrong. The purpose of melee solo it to defeat a target that is going t give you something. It doesn't matter if you are spamming MP on it or not while doing so. Melee is used to defeat targets that otherwise gives casting solos some difficulty or are nearly outright immune to magics all together. Vice versa is the same when discussing casting solo's.

pigeon holing yourself into one specific style of play just so you can stroke an imaginary epeen is silly and redundant. A RDM that is not capable of doing both styles of solo, or refuses to may as well just go level a job more suited for those specific solo styles such as a DNC for melee solo, or BLM for nuking solo.

Utilizing MP in a melee solo is perfectly fine and not wrong at all. Infact it make more sense to do so as certain sells greatly increase your survivability options. Keeping a mob Sslowed/Addled/Parad/Blind/Bio'd/Poisoned are all mp heavy duties, not using these is stupid. Furthermore casting an occasional nuke to speed up a kill is more than welcome, if not by your own personal time, the people standing around waiting on you to tickle a mob to death will greatly appreciate several minutes shaved off your kill speeds.

Sounds to me like you want to come in and say "I melee solo stuff so I am cool, and you all suck" If all you want to do is swing your silly swords at a mob, go and level DNC solo nearly twice as fast and you won't ever have to use MP. Since it is so silly to do so in your mind.

In before @#%^ing trolls tell me how its not a true solo if "Sanguine F. Blade" is main-healing me.

July 2, 2011

Dear diary,
I've written way too many entries within the last 30 minutes.
I think it's time we take a break.

Uh, no, that's the point of fighting the mob, is to get something. HOW you kill it is a whole other issue which has nothing to do with you wanting a specific item.



Pigeon holing? Every since I started RDM, I've always carried gear for main healing, nuking and meeleing and switched when necessary. I'm probably one of the most versatile RDMs there are. My point isn't about nuking or healing now though. The discussion was over a specific time when it would be better to be a race other than Taru and I named a scenario, solo meeling. This isn't about melee vs nuke. I'm giving you a scenario that is better suited for a race other than Taru.




I stated composure buffs and enfeebles. That's part of meleeing. Addle isn't always necessary, ice spikes > para, I argued for blind and people laughed at me, but I still use it, slow/BIO are good, poison not necessary.

The simple fact that you said *occasional* nukes completely supports my claim. You're not constantly nuking, you're just occasionally nuking at kills to speed things up. You're able to do that because with your 600-1200+ mp and refresh II, your enfeebles aren't taking that much of your MP.

The point of solo-melee is to only cast the necessary spells during battle. Else, you're just taking hits on your stone skin or on yourself casting spells. By doing so, you aren't dealing any damage, just taking damage and losing MP. If you're going to cast so much, you're better just nuking from a distance. That way, you aren't getting hit.





Not all. The purpose of this conversation was to present a scenario where it would be more beneficial to be a race other than Taru and I listed one. While doing so, tangents of melee vs nuking arouse, but that was never the point. It's much better to be an Elvaan while solo-meleeing than it would being a Taru.

I win.



This

Go solo KSNM99 Behemoth on RDM, see if you can live through AoE Stun > Meteor > melee hits with Taru HP + MP merits. I had more than one close call that was completely unavoidable that would've killed me had I lacked even 100-200 HP; and yes, all that damage was received in PDT/MDT -50% gear as appropriate. Does that count as outside Abyssea?

Where is that quote from Red Mage Statskouski?

"I am prepared to argue my point until nothing makes sense anymore. And if that doesn't work, hours upon hours of whining will!"

This applies to both sides of the debate now.

Seriously, get over your chosen method of race/style. Red Mage is variable enough to accommodate for BOTH.

You can argue efficiency until you are blue in the face, the point of the matter is, a dead mob is a dead mob, and if you choose to do that faster by packing more MP as a Taru, or stressing your physical damage as an Elvaan, whatever floats your boat; nobody really cares.

Red Mage alone should not be determinant for your race choice. Even with an extra 200 MP, there's just not enough there to justify a 'best' claim. Not while you gain other benefits in other sections of the job by choosing a different race. Honestly, race is more about identity than it is about stats, because the differences can be made up by gear choice and playstyle changes, which is WHY you get so many arguments here.

Everything about Red Mage is situational, including how you play it. And there's always going to be situations in which one set of stats is not going to help as well vs another set of stats. RDM is so middle of the road in this situation that it really doesn't matter.

Got a lesser Max MP? Manage your MP better, or bring pots.
Got a lesser Max HP? Play a touch more defensively, or bring pots.

The differences covers for margins of error on both sides of the spectrum. As a Hume, I don't worry as much about my Max MP as I do my convert timer, and I just adjust my casting depending on how much I need to do within a specific period of time. Doesn't mean I avoid finishing off Wamouracampa with Blizzard IV when I deem it appropriate solo. But in small groups or parties I typically withhold it until Magic Bursting for better MP efficiency. (Opening skillchains makes up for holding back on nukes to be more supportive.)

Merits? I go for MP mainly because I do NOT push a convert set. (I just swap in what mage gear I got that has +MP on it than dedicating a set to the role.) I don't see the purpose of extra MP that gets lost anyways in the first time I swap casting, unless casting is ALL I'm doing. (Which usually means nuking is a no no to begin with.) I'll save more MP in the long run stacking up Conserve MP on the costly spells. (Cobra does a nice job of giving Magic attack bonus paired with cMP. So it fills in any spare slots that's not, for instance, AF/2/3). In the end, it nets me more spells cast in total than I'd probably get with more 'max mp'. And I learned that tactic by having less than ideal max MP.

So play the way you want. Sweat the details to yourself. I've seen so many different RDMs do things in many different ways, especially when it comes to Melee/Nuking/Curing, etc. Honestly, I'd rather encourage the variety, so long as it's done well and the mission is accomplished and you had a good time, I could care less how you got there.

Burning yourself out over the details is not worth the extra efficiency in any argument.

You're absolutely right. I know this conversation derailed into a melee vs nuke, but the entire argument was that Taru isn't the overall best race for RDM in every case. Everything is situational. I just love to argue and it's been a looooooong time since I've been on the RDM forums. Felt good :)

Me throwing bogus math around isn't helping.