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Pup sucks in Zergs. This is a fact.Follow

#52 Jul 27 2012 at 6:02 PM Rating: Good
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Dalans wrote:
As an After thought I realized Jinte read my post and went on to reply with precise helpful info and not once berated me for my ignorance.

I feel proud of Jinte and perhaps a little cheated personally.

Smiley: laugh

Zelduh wrote:
Except I'm not trolling, but nothing I say will convince you people because of such narrow-mindedness so I'm not gonna bother.

Pups, especially long-time pups, are the ******* antithesis of Narrow-minded Smiley: lol

Zelduh wrote:
MNK doesn't have access to any more TA or DA than PUP does, and haste is irrelevant because PUP can easily cap it. The tiny damage difference MNK has over PUP is easily made up with the puppet. The end.

Nothing I say will convince you people that PUP is a good damage dealer, so there's no point in this discussion. It's like discussing religion. It's pointless to try and thus I'm not going to bother


Regardless of which job has access to more DA or TA (since for this point, Zelduh's not necessarily wrong, if you only account for practical DA options, and he is, sadly, correct as far as TA is concerned, since every TA piece either job can wear has both mnk and pup on it), you're vastly overestimating the puppet's performance in a zerg, and vastly underestimating the difference in damage between a mnk and a pup in a zerg. Let's take a look here:

If you generously assume that both the mnk and the pup have equal DA, TA, Haste, Crit Rate. Store TP, and Regain, and that they're both using the same weapon (in this case, let's say STR path oxyuranis; note that this also means both will have the same attack speed) the raw stat difference is going to come out something like this:

Mnk:
Attack: +15~20 (before gear)
Accuracy: +15~20 (before gear)
Base STR: +~6 (Varies by race, this is comparing two humes) (also note that pup and mnk have equal base dex)
Base Damage +2 (51 to pup's 49)
Kick Attacks +27% (with kicks having a weapon D of +45, so 96)
Impetus
Focus
Counter (pulling hate on mnk INCREASES your damage by a good margin, if you have the right gear)

Pup:
Automaton (I'll math this out to demonstrate what it adds and why it's not enough)
TP/hit: +0.2 (before store TP; 5.1 to mnk's 4.9)
Significantly higher evasion

First and foremost, let's cover the first massive advantage mnk has over pup; Impetus. Ignoring the attack gain, impetus, to achieve it's max buff, requires the mnk land 50 consecutive hits (ie: not missing 50 attacks in a row). Note, however, that this is attacks,and not attack rounds. If TA procs twice and KA procs as well, and they all hit, that's 7 attacks for the count. Now, at 50 hits, the bonus caps off at a staggering Crit hit Rate +50% as well as Crit hit Damage +50% (if AF3+2 body is worn). If both players are using the same weapon, at haste cap they will have the same attack speed, and due to martial arts, the pup will even get slightly more TP/hit, however, the 27% kick rate will negate that extra TP fairly quickly, and doesn't even begin to cover how huge the damage output difference will be due to impetus. Even if it's not maintained at max, in this situation, it will average out to still be a large increase to crit rate and crit damage (how it averages depends on what you're fighting, but even being generous towards pup, it'd be ~20% for each, so ~15% once you account for impetus' duration, realistically, in a high acc/haste situation, it'd be more like ~25% with duration accounted for).

Now let's look at kick attacks. 27% means that 1 in four of the mnk's attack rounds will have an extra hit (not accounting for the AF3+2 set bonus adding a second kick, because that ****'s to annoying to math out, and is at most a 1~2% net increase in KA rate), all of which will have +13 D over the pup's hits and +11 over the mnk's non kicks, and all of which get full (4.9 before store TP) TP return. Thus, while the pup has higher TP/hit, kick attacks means that the monk will average a noticeably larger number of attacks, which means it will gain more TP than the pup, and thus, weapon skill more often.

Further, let's look at WS. If you want to be fair, either both will be using shijin spiral, or the pup will be using stringing pummel. For pup Shijin Spiral and Stringing Pummel are approximately equal in strength, with SS favoring high defense and SP favoring low defense, however a Monk's Shijin Spiral will always average more damage than a pup's (and thus, by extension, will average more than stringing pummel), for one very simple reason: Mnk has access to far, far more good dex gear than pup, and will thus be able to more handily take advantage of SS's 100% dex mod.

Additionally, Mnk will always have an easier time capping pDIF, fSTR, and Hit Rate, and will average higher in all three against the tougher NMs that no one will be capped on. The combination of Impetus, Focus, Kick Attacks, WS rate, and WS Damage results in a rather large lead for the mnk, and this is before accounting for the huge hit to damage output a pup takes if they want their puppet to not suck (read: using maneuvers). In my OP how maintaining 1 manuever every 20 seconds costs pup ~1 ws/minute at capped haste. Consider that; using maneuvers in high haste means that the distance between mnk and pup TP rates will get even larger.

If you give each job 3% TA, 45% DA (based on gear average and buffs), the pup will average 88 attacks/minute, while the monk will average 126. that's 448.8 TP to 617 TP, before store TP, or ~2 WS/minute from kick attacks alone). If pup loses another ws/min due to maneuvers, that means that mnk is putting out twice as many WS as the pup, at higher damage per ws.

Thus, Your puppet needs to average at least 3 WS/minute to even be able to keep up with the mnk, let alone the fact that Armor Shatterer won't necessarily out damage, or even compare to, a mnk's shijin spiral on many zerged mobs. However, for the sake of the argument, let's see what Sharpshot's Max TP rate (since that's what I did for pup and mnk, despite the fact that if I accounted for acc, the mnk would be further ahead, and acc would greatly reduce sharpshot's TP rate as well, because it's melee skill is an awesome C rank) would be with Turbo Charger and Drum Magazine at 3 wind maneuvers (If you're using barrage turbine in a zerg, you're going to lose another 1-2 ws/minute trying to keep maneuvers up).

Sharpshot has 400 base delay (10.2 TP/hit), and 20 seconds between ranged attack (which use 360 delay for TP, so 9.3 TP/hit). With 3x maneuvers, turbo charger will be at 25% haste (300 delay), and Drum Magazine will have Sharpshot at 12 seconds between ranged attacks. After you account for the delay caused by the Ranged Attack animation, you'll effectively have Sharpshot swinging twice for every single time it shoots, or for a total of 15 attacks per minute or 148.5 TP/minute BEFORE accounting for sharpshot's terrible melee accuracy. at 1 ws/minute, there's absolutely no way sharpshot can negate the difference between a mnk and a pup. AND THIS IS WITH SHARPSHOT BUFFED.

So, let's try Valoredge? You know string shredder won't be able to keep up with shijin spiral, but VE should have a higher WS rate, right? Well, the short answer is no. Because VE can't wear gear, vs anything you'd zerg, you would need Targert Marker and Stab II to be able to have decent acc, which means no coiler, which means no double attack, which means with 3x wind maneuvers, VE will average 12 attacks/minute, or 111 TP/minute, which is even worse than sharpshot. The only advantage VE has is that it's less likely to get wasted by any stray AoE.

So yea, Pup cannot out damage a Mnk if both are on equal footing, pet or no pet. ***************** D.
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#53 Jul 27 2012 at 8:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:

Regardless of which job has access to more DA or TA (since for this point, Zelduh's not necessarily wrong, if you only account for practical DA options, and he is, sadly, correct as far as TA is concerned, since every TA piece either job can wear has both mnk and pup on it), you're vastly overestimating the puppet's performance in a zerg, and vastly underestimating the difference in damage between a mnk and a pup in a zerg. Let's take a look here:


You know, just mathing the Kick Attack percentage vs Automaton in a zerg situation would've probably been easier and faster. ****, you don't really have to because any high haste situation will make any additional attack abilities like Kicks, DA, or TA become more potent so.
#54 Jul 27 2012 at 9:23 PM Rating: Good
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Nothing but love for Jinte, but easier and faster aren't exactly her forte lol
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MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#55 Jul 27 2012 at 11:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Shouta wrote:
Quote:

Regardless of which job has access to more DA or TA (since for this point, Zelduh's not necessarily wrong, if you only account for practical DA options, and he is, sadly, correct as far as TA is concerned, since every TA piece either job can wear has both mnk and pup on it), you're vastly overestimating the puppet's performance in a zerg, and vastly underestimating the difference in damage between a mnk and a pup in a zerg. Let's take a look here:


You know, just mathing the Kick Attack percentage vs Automaton in a zerg situation would've probably been easier and faster. ****, you don't really have to because any high haste situation will make any additional attack abilities like Kicks, DA, or TA become more potent so.


As much as I'd love to have just done that, I felt that going the extra mile made the point a little more clear. And I forgot I could do that. Smiley: motz

LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
Nothing but love for Jinte, but easier and faster aren't exactly her forte lol

Sad, but true. My posts are pretty much either one liners or walls of text Smiley: laugh

Also, you get a ******* Smiley: cookie for getting that **** pronoun right Smiley: inlove

Edited, Jul 28th 2012 12:42am by Jinte
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#56 Jul 30 2012 at 7:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Take this thread for what it is.
Jinte casts Math Proof on Zelduh
No effect.
Jinte reduces Zelduh's credibility points to 0.
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#57 Jul 30 2012 at 9:02 PM Rating: Excellent
Xilk wrote:
Take this thread for what it is.
Jinte casts Math Proof on Zelduh
No effect.
Jinte reduces Zelduh's credibility points to 0.


Indeed! Smiley: nod
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Not to make too extreme a comparison, but Rog is like Nelson Mandella...


Quite possibly the DUMBEST thing i've ever read.
#58 Jul 30 2012 at 10:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Friar spiritreaverdiablos wrote:
Xilk wrote:
Take this thread for what it is.
Jinte casts Math Proof on Zelduh
No effect.
Jinte reduces Zelduh's credibility points to 0.


Indeed! Smiley: nod

That's what happens when I use...

THESE MATHEMATICS SKILLS THAT HAVE BEEN PASSED DOWN THE ARMSTRONG FAMILY FOR GENERATIONS!
Screenshot

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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#59 Aug 02 2012 at 10:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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All I have to say is - I went on vacation and am in the middle of moving, so I've been kind of out of the Alla loop for a couple weeks. Now I come back to see... I don't even...

This is gonna be some **** fine reading for the next time I have a lull at work. I actually have to thank EVERYONE here, including Zelduh. You can't buy entertainment like this. Thanks everyone!
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#60 Aug 03 2012 at 9:51 AM Rating: Good
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don't forget to check out my other massive WoT thread, they gave our puppet access to mighty strikes on the test server today, so I can finally, get some ******* concrete numbers on pet (melee) weapon damage ratings.
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LOLGAXE IS MY ETERNAL RIVAL!

Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#62 Dec 30 2012 at 10:01 AM Rating: Excellent
Lady Jinte wrote:
Friar spiritreaverdiablos wrote:
Xilk wrote:
Take this thread for what it is.
Jinte casts Math Proof on Zelduh
No effect.
Jinte reduces Zelduh's credibility points to 0.


Indeed! Smiley: nod

That's what happens when I use...

THESE MATHEMATICS SKILLS THAT HAVE BEEN PASSED DOWN THE ARMSTRONG FAMILY FOR GENERATIONS!
Screenshot




I lol'd, and i regret nothing.
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#63 Jan 02 2013 at 7:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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KaynofTitan wrote:
Lady Jinte wrote:
Friar spiritreaverdiablos wrote:
Xilk wrote:
Take this thread for what it is.
Jinte casts Math Proof on Zelduh
No effect.
Jinte reduces Zelduh's credibility points to 0.


Indeed! Smiley: nod

That's what happens when I use...

THESE MATHEMATICS SKILLS THAT HAVE BEEN PASSED DOWN THE ARMSTRONG FAMILY FOR GENERATIONS!
Screenshot




I lol'd, and i regret nothing.


Is it odd that i STILL come back to this thread sometimes when i'm feeling blue?
____________________________
[ffxisig]10000[/ffxisig]
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One of my server's brightest minds... wrote:
Not to make too extreme a comparison, but Rog is like Nelson Mandella...


Quite possibly the DUMBEST thing i've ever read.
#64 Jan 04 2013 at 5:14 AM Rating: Excellent
spiritreaverdiablos wrote:
KaynofTitan wrote:
Lady Jinte wrote:
Friar spiritreaverdiablos wrote:
Xilk wrote:
Take this thread for what it is.
Jinte casts Math Proof on Zelduh
No effect.
Jinte reduces Zelduh's credibility points to 0.


Indeed! Smiley: nod

That's what happens when I use...

THESE MATHEMATICS SKILLS THAT HAVE BEEN PASSED DOWN THE ARMSTRONG FAMILY FOR GENERATIONS!
Screenshot




I lol'd, and i regret nothing.


Is it odd that i STILL come back to this thread sometimes when i'm feeling blue?


nope, **** fine read, i read last math-wall from jinte at least twice a weak, and i every time i come back, I wish magically they would have changed to "pup and monk are pretty equal on a zerg situation" but that never happens :c, I still lol pretty hard.
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#65 Jan 07 2013 at 4:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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Love the image. Finished FMA and feel sad.
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#66 Feb 01 2013 at 10:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ahhhhh nothing like reading a Jinte *** whoopin, to make my day better.
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#67 Feb 05 2013 at 3:37 PM Rating: Good
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I wish we could get some numbers in these posts in regards to how much of a difference there is between the two. Right now, words like "a lot", "much more", "a great difference" are thrown around, but those are all subjective.

I feel like the math takes it pretty far, but it always seems to stop just short of describing how much of a difference there is between pup and monk in a zerg. You use math to describe how monk would do more damage, but from the numbers you use its impossible for your average pup (like me) to see exactly HOW much of a difference. I understand from your post that given the similar gear in terms of haste, da, ta, regain, store tp, etc. that monk WS's will come more frequently and hit harder. But its all just arbitrary talk at that point. HOW MUCH more frequently do they occur and HOW MUCH harder do they hit. Just hearing that the monks ws's hit "much" harder does nothing for me. If the difference in a pup's dps versus monk's over 5 minutes is 2%-3% I don't mind bringing pup with me to an event. If we're talking 10-15% then that is significant.

It really just comes down to the difference in a pup's ws damage/frequency offset by how much the puppet can do (without maneuvers, as you proved in your first post in a zerg situation using maneuvers only lowers our total dps). I am not disagreeing with anything that has been posted up to this point, you've convinced everyone that the puppets damage is not enough to bring pup up to a monks level, but it would help a lot to see what kind of difference we are talking about.

Edited, Feb 5th 2013 4:39pm by novaryu
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#69 Feb 06 2013 at 11:24 PM Rating: Good
novaryu wrote:
I wish we could get some numbers in these posts in regards to how much of a difference there is between the two. Right now, words like "a lot", "much more", "a great difference" are thrown around, but those are all subjective.

I feel like the math takes it pretty far, but it always seems to stop just short of describing how much of a difference there is between pup and monk in a zerg. You use math to describe how monk would do more damage, but from the numbers you use its impossible for your average pup (like me) to see exactly HOW much of a difference. I understand from your post that given the similar gear in terms of haste, da, ta, regain, store tp, etc. that monk WS's will come more frequently and hit harder. But its all just arbitrary talk at that point. HOW MUCH more frequently do they occur and HOW MUCH harder do they hit. Just hearing that the monks ws's hit "much" harder does nothing for me. If the difference in a pup's dps versus monk's over 5 minutes is 2%-3% I don't mind bringing pup with me to an event. If we're talking 10-15% then that is significant.

It really just comes down to the difference in a pup's ws damage/frequency offset by how much the puppet can do (without maneuvers, as you proved in your first post in a zerg situation using maneuvers only lowers our total dps). I am not disagreeing with anything that has been posted up to this point, you've convinced everyone that the puppets damage is not enough to bring pup up to a monks level, but it would help a lot to see what kind of difference we are talking about.

Edited, Feb 5th 2013 4:39pm by novaryu


I wish I could give you an excact number, but one of the things that hurts us the most is that the Automaton is not getting any buffs like cor rolls and brd songs or haste and that maneuvers have a job ability delay associated with them which is like, 2 seconds, if you understand how much 2 seconds on a high haste situation is you will get it, and no I don't think its 2-3% its way more, crunching numbers is not easy, and god knows if jinte would take the time to do it again.

just learn to deal with it, the very nature of how the job works hinders it from working "optimally" on a zerg situation, its just bad luck that almost all high end game is about SPEEDOMGLOL right now.
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#70 Feb 06 2013 at 11:26 PM Rating: Good
Zelduh wrote:
That's the thing. Everyone claims math but they don't have the numbers to back it up.


I know one person that has not given ANY numbers to back up his claims, oh right, that's you! because I've seen jinte's math and its pretty darn convincing.

Edited, Feb 7th 2013 12:33am by KaynofTitan
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#71 Feb 07 2013 at 6:12 AM Rating: Excellent
KaynofTitan wrote:
Zelduh wrote:
That's the thing. Everyone claims math but they don't have the numbers to back it up.


I know one person that has not given ANY numbers to back up his claims, oh right, that's you! because I've seen jinte's math and its pretty darn convincing.

Edited, Feb 7th 2013 12:33am by KaynofTitan


Let's not start anything. The last time we had a really heated Pup argument, Kao had to come in here to quell it.
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#72 Feb 11 2013 at 5:09 AM Rating: Good
Professor Shock Vlorsutes wrote:
KaynofTitan wrote:
Zelduh wrote:
That's the thing. Everyone claims math but they don't have the numbers to back it up.


I know one person that has not given ANY numbers to back up his claims, oh right, that's you! because I've seen jinte's math and its pretty darn convincing.

Edited, Feb 7th 2013 12:33am by KaynofTitan


Let's not start anything. The last time we had a really heated Pup argument, Kao had to come in here to quell it.

agreed, not trying to "start" anything.
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#73 Feb 14 2013 at 10:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I wish I could give you an excact number, but one of the things that hurts us the most is that the Automaton is not getting any buffs like cor rolls and brd songs or haste and that maneuvers have a job ability delay associated with them which is like, 2 seconds, if you understand how much 2 seconds on a high haste situation is you will get it, and no I don't think its 2-3% its way more, crunching numbers is not easy, and god knows if jinte would take the time to do it again.

just learn to deal with it, the very nature of how the job works hinders it from working "optimally" on a zerg situation, its just bad luck that almost all high end game is about SPEEDOMGLOL right now.


All of those words mean essentially nothing. There is no argument that automatons don't get cor buffs/brd song, everyone realizes that (however the puppetmaster himself benefits just fine from them). No one is arguing that a 2 second delay wouldn't hurt the puppetmaster, however in this case it is again irrelevant because the math has already proven that a puppetmaster will do more damage in a high haste environment by not using any maneuvers. The only thing we have to determine is what the difference in damage is between a similarly geared pup and monk over the course of a 5 minute fight. The monk will obviously outdps the puppetmaster himself, but then we need to subtract the damage the puppet contributed (a puppet with no maneuvers active over the course of the 5 minute fight). Again, no one is arguing that the monk won't come out ahead, the only question that is left is how much ahead he is.

I'm glad that you "don't think its 2-3%", but what you think doesn't help anyone. No one cares about the arbitrary opinions of people on the forums. I am not going to leave an LS pup behind based of the feelings of people from the forums. But I would leave him behind if someone could provide me enough math that convinced me bringing one is a significant enough dps loss to the entire group that it puts us in jeopardy of losing fights we could win. So far, I have not been entirely convinced of it, but I am open to hearing the evidence if anyone could take the math that extra step.

However, I realize that is not something trivial to throw together, so if no one gets to it is understandable. Until then I'll go on trusting that pups aren't as far behind as some people think they are. No maneuver armor piercers hit pretty hard, and seem to go a long way to offset the difference in damage and frequency between pup and monk weaponskills. This is based purely on a few arbitrary group parses that mean nothing in the big picture, but until I have actual math to prove things one way or another, subjective info is about all we have.
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#74 Feb 15 2013 at 1:25 PM Rating: Good
novaryu wrote:
Quote:
I wish I could give you an excact number, but one of the things that hurts us the most is that the Automaton is not getting any buffs like cor rolls and brd songs or haste and that maneuvers have a job ability delay associated with them which is like, 2 seconds, if you understand how much 2 seconds on a high haste situation is you will get it, and no I don't think its 2-3% its way more, crunching numbers is not easy, and god knows if jinte would take the time to do it again.

just learn to deal with it, the very nature of how the job works hinders it from working "optimally" on a zerg situation, its just bad luck that almost all high end game is about SPEEDOMGLOL right now.


All of those words mean essentially nothing. There is no argument that automatons don't get cor buffs/brd song, everyone realizes that (however the puppetmaster himself benefits just fine from them). No one is arguing that a 2 second delay wouldn't hurt the puppetmaster, however in this case it is again irrelevant because the math has already proven that a puppetmaster will do more damage in a high haste environment by not using any maneuvers. The only thing we have to determine is what the difference in damage is between a similarly geared pup and monk over the course of a 5 minute fight. The monk will obviously outdps the puppetmaster himself, but then we need to subtract the damage the puppet contributed (a puppet with no maneuvers active over the course of the 5 minute fight). Again, no one is arguing that the monk won't come out ahead, the only question that is left is how much ahead he is.

I'm glad that you "don't think its 2-3%", but what you think doesn't help anyone. No one cares about the arbitrary opinions of people on the forums. I am not going to leave an LS pup behind based of the feelings of people from the forums. But I would leave him behind if someone could provide me enough math that convinced me bringing one is a significant enough dps loss to the entire group that it puts us in jeopardy of losing fights we could win. So far, I have not been entirely convinced of it, but I am open to hearing the evidence if anyone could take the math that extra step.

However, I realize that is not something trivial to throw together, so if no one gets to it is understandable. Until then I'll go on trusting that pups aren't as far behind as some people think they are. No maneuver armor piercers hit pretty hard, and seem to go a long way to offset the difference in damage and frequency between pup and monk weaponskills. This is based purely on a few arbitrary group parses that mean nothing in the big picture, but until I have actual math to prove things one way or another, subjective info is about all we have.


this is a private message I sent to kinematics a while ago, as you see burattinaios was still "broken" so you can figure out from how long this message was.

Quote:
KaynofTitan wrote:
hello kinematics, first i want to state that i highly respect your knowledge in the game mechanics, thats something im not even half as good as you are, thats why i need your help, i was going to start a thread on the puppetmaster forums but then i thougth it migth spawn useless drama, so i came to you on PM first, ok to the issue at hand:

as it stands, im having a lot of trouble believing that monk is MILES away from pup as a damage dealer, im hearing great monks on my server saying that unless a monk has verethragna it can't compare to a burattinaios puppetmaster, wich i find to be quite the case, this weapon is even more broken that what hagun was for samurai back in the day (10tp a tick for your automaton is insane), but then again, when ever i hit forums, and someone speaks about monk and puppetmaster on the same sentence, everyone gets really jumpy and starts saying monk is miles away from pup on the damage dealer side, and i just simply dont think that is nearly as true as everyone seems to believe. so im asking what do you think on the matter, would you consider that pup as it stands now, is a top tier damage dealer? i remember you once crunched some numbers but burattinaios wasn't on the picture then, and i think its a pretty big deal now.

thanks for your time man.

Regards

Kayn
server: Titan


There are a whole host of factors that complicate comparing mnk with pup.

Pup has an innate advantage weaponskill-wise. Stringing Pummel is basically right on par with Victory Smite, so a mnk is restricted to one of two weapons to reach that, while a pup can have that at any time. Smite is really what puts mnk back up in the massively heavy DD category, so the disadvantage for pup is mostly relegated to the TP phase and gear selection.

The damage the puppet puts out is completely uncategorized in terms of modelling. Yes, impressive 5k nukes from the mage bot, etc, etc, but there's no real math to get a good DPS value out of it. I've seen several parses where, as the master really steps up their game, the puppet ends up doing maybe 20% of the master's damage. Of course that was pre-Burattinaios.

Plus, maintaining the bot is a notable disanvantage for the pup, since you have to constantly use JAs (deploy and maneuvers) that eat up 2 seconds of your time. Maintaining the puppet can end up chipping off about 20% of the master's DPS.


So, in a sort of napkin-math comparison:

Pup starts off about even with mnk on weaponskill.

Mnk is about 18% ahead on melee DOT due to MA trait differences.

Mnk gets another ~15% melee DOT from kick attacks (full +2 set).

Mnk has an unknown advantage strictly due to gear and skill, but going to put it arbitrarily at 15%.

Overall advantage pre-puppet, for mnk: ~40%.

Adding in the puppet needs to compensate both for the inherent time lost to maintain it (~20%), but also the 40% edge mnk has, for pup to catch up. To manage that, the puppet needs to be doing about 75% of the master's damage.

I don't know whether the puppet can do that, but if the Burattinaios bring the puppet up to that level, then yes, overall pup should be about on par with mnk in terms of pure damage output. In terms of utility, though, they of course cover vastly different areas (mnk for tanking and better proc coverage, pup in terms of puppet flexibility).
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as you can see, im not new around here, and no, you are not the only one that has felt that way,
we all have, but if you are going to just dismiss experienced people's opinions on numbers they have crunched before (talking about Jinte here) and probably to tired to do it all again just to answer you, I'm sorry man but you are doing it wrong. I hope that what kine wrote at least gives you some insight and you can come up with your own conclusions whether "you'll leave a ls pup behind or not." truth is, a monk is better than a pup on a zerg, period, if you want optimal you'll take a monk, if you don't care about the best performance take which ever, and if you really really completely need to know for how much a mnk beats a pup on a zerg, learn to math yourself mate.
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#75 Feb 15 2013 at 3:30 PM Rating: Default
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Sorry, but if anyone is "doing it wrong", its you. Posting outdated opinions about the state of pup vs mnk from years ago when gear selection between them was vastly different then it is now, with a handful of "napkin math" numbers does nothing to further this thread. I don't care about the history of pup vs mnk, I am only interested in how they compare now. Its great that your opinion hasn't changed since pup was released. Apparently you feel that pup always did less damage then monk in high haste environments and that it always will. That is exactly the kind of opinion I couldn't care less to read about. You may be right, you may not, but all that those of us that are serious about doing high-end content care about are hard numbers. When you can't provide that, and instead can only regurgitate posts from years ago and pass them off as still relevant, well, don't wonder why I choose to hold out for more relevant information.

I'll be the first to admit, I have no idea how I would begin sim'ing pup and monk damage, which is exactly why I am here. Last I checked, I didn't need your permission to post in a pup thread, looking for information on pup. I am not going to "learn math [myself] mate", any more then you will, because this is a tough problem with a lot of variables to consider and I don't mind admitting that is well outside what I could come up with an answer for. However, that is not going to stop me from posting asking for more information. If someone is able to come up with an answer and further the thread, thats amazing and helps pup out a lot one way or another; either by providing evidence that they should be allowed in a group as they are only slightly behind other dd's or by proving that the pup needs to gear up monk or a better DD job because their is such a large difference in damage it is reducing the capability of the whole group. Either conclusion helps pup. Blindly holding on to outdated analysis and trying to pass it off as current does nothing but hurt pup. So whether you think I should post here or not, or whether I need to "learn to math" (really kid?), I couldn't care less. My only response to you is its better to leave this thread to the people with something useful to contribute to it.
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#77 Feb 17 2013 at 3:18 AM Rating: Excellent
novaryu wrote:
Sorry, but if anyone is "doing it wrong", its you. Posting outdated opinions about the state of pup vs mnk from years ago when gear selection between them was vastly different then it is now, with a handful of "napkin math" numbers does nothing to further this thread. I don't care about the history of pup vs mnk, I am only interested in how they compare now. Its great that your opinion hasn't changed since pup was released. Apparently you feel that pup always did less damage then monk in high haste environments and that it always will. That is exactly the kind of opinion I couldn't care less to read about. You may be right, you may not, but all that those of us that are serious about doing high-end content care about are hard numbers. When you can't provide that, and instead can only regurgitate posts from years ago and pass them off as still relevant, well, don't wonder why I choose to hold out for more relevant information.

I'll be the first to admit, I have no idea how I would begin sim'ing pup and monk damage, which is exactly why I am here. Last I checked, I didn't need your permission to post in a pup thread, looking for information on pup. I am not going to "learn math [myself] mate", any more then you will, because this is a tough problem with a lot of variables to consider and I don't mind admitting that is well outside what I could come up with an answer for. However, that is not going to stop me from posting asking for more information. If someone is able to come up with an answer and further the thread, thats amazing and helps pup out a lot one way or another; either by providing evidence that they should be allowed in a group as they are only slightly behind other dd's or by proving that the pup needs to gear up monk or a better DD job because their is such a large difference in damage it is reducing the capability of the whole group. Either conclusion helps pup. Blindly holding on to outdated analysis and trying to pass it off as current does nothing but hurt pup. So whether you think I should post here or not, or whether I need to "learn to math" (really kid?), I couldn't care less. My only response to you is its better to leave this thread to the people with something useful to contribute to it.


It seems that the intentions of my post where completely lost on my "snappy comments", since English is not my first language, my sarcasm is not that good, either way ill try and keep it simple to avoid such scenarios again.

monk is better than pup on zergs, that's a known fact, for how much you ask? its REALLY hard to specify an exact number because of all of the variants on a lot of different situations, and I know I'm not gonna be the one to do it for you, far beyond my skills with numbers, either way good luck with that.

and Zelduh...

Jinte = goddess, not god.
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#79 Feb 17 2013 at 1:39 PM Rating: Excellent
Zelduh wrote:
It hasn't been proven that monk is better than PUP at zergs, it's just no one has bothered using a well-geared PUP parsing it because lawlpup and people Jinte making the job seem useless and everyone listening to him, as if his word were the will of the universe. Everyone is afraid of seeming pro-PUP because it's not "cool"


It's not just Jinte's opinion on the matter. There are a number of factors that are going to push a Monk over a Puppetmaster when it comes to any zerg situation. For starters, Monks have Impetus, which is a significant amount of Attack and Crit Rate for battles where level correction factors heavily Puppetmasters with Automatons out are going to constantly be needing to use Maneuvers, delaying their attack rounds each time they do (in comparison to Monks, who would only do that for Boost). Most importantly though, and this is something I've brought up a few times, is the fact that those "true zerg" sort of situations (Provenance and Legion) would be near impossible for you to keep your automaton alive for very long. The Sharpshot and Mage frames aren't much sturdier than a normal player, and a normal player can get rocked easily without constant cures and/or Fanatic's Drinks (in the case of Voidwatch), so those would likewise get destroyed pretty quickly. Repair is only going to do so much, as will the attachments that mitigate damage, since mobs in those fights use both a combination of physical and magical damage. Deus Ex Automata won't help much, since it's very likely that your Automaton would die again as soon as it was activated. The Healing Salves in Voidwatch would help a bit, but remember, doing that is, like Maneuvers, going to delay your attack rounds.

Puppetmaster wouldn't work well in a zerg situation primarily because it's just too busy of a job. Even if it was otherwise identical to Monk (which it really isn't, given Impetus among other things), the constant re-upping of Maneuvers would delay your attack rounds so often that the damage output of your Automaton (if it can even last long enough to do any appreciable damage) is going to be countered by the damage you're giving up in the process.

You keep saying that no one's shown any proof that Monk isn't better than Puppetmaster when it comes to zergs, but you haven't shown any proof to suggest that Puppetmaster is as good, if not better. Others have at least shown some degree of information to support their claims, but you've just sort of thrown your opinion out there, expecting us to take it as fact without giving any proof.
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#81 Feb 17 2013 at 6:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't want to just jump into the middle of this maelstrom, however
Quote:
SE designed it as damage dealer, therefore it is assumed to be swapable with MNK and do the same damage.
is an incredibly asinine statement. That's no different then saying all DD are swapable and do the same damage. Come up with a better defense for your point Zelduh.
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#82 Feb 17 2013 at 7:13 PM Rating: Excellent
Zelduh wrote:
The burden of proof is on you to prove that PUP sucks :P You're the one making the claim. SE designed it as damage dealer, therefore it is assumed to be swappable with MNK and do the same damage. If you're going to claim it sucks, I'd like to see proof


The reasons why Puppetmaster falls short of Monk has already been pointed out several times in here. I gave the general points, Jinte elaborated on them in great detail, and others also hit on the points quite a bit. Just because it's also a damage dealer doesn't mean that it can be swappable and do the same damage. In FFXI, none of the damage dealing jobs are on the same level. Some are considerably stronger than the others due to their weaponskills available, their job abilities, etc, and that's how it's always been. It's the same situation with Dragoon. I'd like it to be up there with Dark Knight as far as damage dealing capabilities, but the limitations of Dragoon vs the capabilities of Dark Knight leave Dragoon just too far behind, to where even a Mythic only puts them as competitive by DD standards nowadays.

Puppetmaster falls under the same problems as Dragoon. The limitations of Puppetmaster vs the capabilities of Monk just push Monk that far ahead in a zerg situation. Impetus, Kick Attacks, etc are going to push Monk ahead of a Puppetmaster by itself as far as DD capacity is concerned, and an Automaton in a true zerg situation nowadays is going to get decimated quickly. It'd end up being a situation of Monk vs "Not So Monk".
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#83 Feb 17 2013 at 7:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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At 0 haste, does the automaton do 2x the damage that pup main does when both are going all out? and is this 3x the damage of a mnk w/out buffs?

No? then there is NO WAY for pup to win in a zerg. it is that simple.
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#84 Feb 17 2013 at 7:49 PM Rating: Excellent
Xilk wrote:
At 0 haste, does the automaton do 2x the damage that pup main does when both are going all out? and is this 3x the damage of a mnk w/out buffs?

No? then there is NO WAY for pup to win in a zerg. it is that simple.


this, a hundred times this. this is simple logic, you don't need the exact number, its as simple as this, and as Vlor said, XI was not designed like current day mmos where most damage dealers are equal just different flavor of skills, some have way better tools to deal damage than others, its the situations at where they excel that differentiate them from one another.

damage dealers on XI are not equal in power and hence, not swapable.
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#85 Feb 17 2013 at 10:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Just wanted to add a little to this conversation because I have been reading the Pup forums for quite some time. I agree with a lot of Jinte's math but I also think that some in game mechanics are being overlooked which makes some of it incorrect. I have no need or want to argue with you guys but I just wanted to point out a few things.

First: It is true that the automatons cannot receive buffs but I was wondering is there a reason that no one is mentioning that the Pup can buff up three maneuvers prior to attacking the NM? Also is there a reason that the Pup would not use his 2hr? I have just recently returned from a few year break so I haven't done some of these Zerg events.

Second: I understand and agree that if a Pup uses maneuvers this will delay his next attack round. This is very true if the maneuver is done without a gear swap. However if the Pup is using macros for every maneuver and they include gear swaps, the delay is much shorter. Also I've personally noticed that if you use the maneuver at the beginning of the swing animation, you will still get the next swing animation with less of a delay. It's not like auto attacking but it certainly not a 2 second delay like was mentioned earlier in this thread.

Third: I keep hearing that the automaton will die due to AOE damage but from my personal experience the Valoredge automaton is more durable then when I stopped playing years ago. I solo ALOT and I use the automaton to tank most of the nasty AOE NM's. With my gear, stout servant and attachments (I have all attachments by the way) my automaton does not die faster then Deux Ex is available.

Finally, I am not fully convinced of Pup's non zerginess since seeing a very well geared Pup Zerg down Briareus solo. For the last three to four days my linkshell has done this NM for his helms. I have seen it low maned and soloed by other jobs but I have yet to see any of the other solo attempts go so quickly. What I know from asking this player questions and getting back some limited answers, he was 99 Pup. He had some high lvl rare/ex gear that ne said was from neo nyzul(other pieces I couldn't tell due to constant macro swaps) lvl 90 Verethranga and he subbed thf. He used Soulsooher automaton. Now I know from personal experience that Pup can solo this NM because I was doing it and getting my own Jewel of Voyage for my AF3 feet. But I use my automaton to tank this NM and it takes me about 12 to 15 mins to kill. This guy did it in under 5. I came away very impressed and it immediately made me think of this thread. By the way he said his atmas were SS, MM and GH.

I think this thread may have been completely true a few years ago but now with the gear that Pup can equip, it makes this thread not entirely true. That Pup looked like he was double and triple attacking and he ws a lot. I'm just posting this because this encounter has made me think a little differently no because I wanted to join this crazy back and fourth thread. To me now, it seems that in game gear and mechanics are disputing some of what is being said here. I don't want to argue I just wanted to share my experience. Thank you.


Edited, Feb 18th 2013 12:02am by Darthmaulll

Edited, Feb 18th 2013 12:07am by Darthmaulll
#86 Feb 18 2013 at 12:04 AM Rating: Excellent
Darthmaulll wrote:
Just wanted to add a little to this conversation because I have been reading the Pup forums for quite some time. I agree with a lot of Jinte's math but I also think that some in game mechanics are being overlooked which makes some of it incorrect. I have no need or want to argue with you guys but I just wanted to point out a few things.

First: It is true that the automatons cannot receive buffs but I was wondering is there a reason that no one is mentioning that the Pup can buff up three maneuvers prior to attacking the NM? Also is there a reason that the Pup would not use his 2hr? I have just recently returned from a few year break so I haven't done some of these Zerg events.

Second: I understand and agree that if a Pup uses maneuvers this will delay his next attack round. This is very true if the maneuver is done without a gear swap. However if the Pup is using macros for every maneuver and they include gear swaps, the delay is much shorter. Also I've personally noticed that if you use the maneuver at the beginning of the swing animation, you will still get the next swing animation with less of a delay. It's not like auto attacking but it certainly not a 2 second delay like was mentioned earlier in this thread.



Even popping those maneuvers before the start begins will only do so much, since the Puppetmaster will constantly need to be re-upping Maneuvers, which even with gear swaps, it will still delay your next attack round. In a zerg situation with capped attack speed, even a second delay of not attacking is going to bump you down significantly.

Quote:
Third: I keep hearing that the automaton will die due to AOE damage but from my personal experience the Valoredge automaton is more durable then when I stopped playing years ago. I solo ALOT and I use the automaton to tank most of the nasty AOE NM's. With my gear, stout servant and attachments (I have all attachments by the way) my automaton does not die faster then Deux Ex is available.


A solo situation is considerably different than a true zerg situation, which is what we're talking about. This is primarily stuff like Provenance Watcher and Legion mobs, where a melee can easily get one shotted if they're not sitting there in -DT gear almost constantly and/or getting cure spammed. Abyssea, Dynamis, etc, aren't the zerg situations we're talking about, since the level of the mobs and/or your own buffs are going to sway things considerably. Legion monsters, especially ones in Hall of Mul, can drop a melee in one hit if it wanted to, the damage output from them is that significant. Likewise with Provenance Watcher. Between its melee attacks, its TP moves, and the occasional magic spell that gets off, a melee without a Fanatic's Drink is going to be destroyed quickly. Valoredge, while heftier than a full DD setup melee as far as taking damage, is still going to be destroyed rather quickly in the face of Legion mobs or Provenance Watcher.

Quote:
Finally, I am not fully convinced of Pup's non zerginess since seeing a very well geared Pup Zerg down Briareus solo. For the last three to four days my linkshell has done this NM for his helms. I have seen it low maned and soloed by other jobs but I have yet to see any of the other solo attempts go so quickly. What I know from asking this player questions and getting back some limited answers, he was 99 Pup. He had some high lvl rare/ex gear that ne said was from neo nyzul(other pieces I couldn't tell due to constant macro swaps) lvl 90 Verethranga and he subbed thf. He used Soulsooher automaton. Now I know from personal experience that Pup can solo this NM because I was doing it and getting my own Jewel of Voyage for my AF3 feet. But I use my automaton to tank this NM and it takes me about 12 to 15 mins to kill. This guy did it in under 5. I came away very impressed and it immediately made me think of this thread. By the way he said his atmas were SS, MM and GH.

I think this thread may have been completely true a few years ago but now with the gear that Pup can equip, it makes this thread not entirely true. That Pup looked like he was double and triple attacking and he ws a lot. I'm just posting this because this encounter has made me think a little differently no because I wanted to join this crazy back and fourth thread. To me now, it seems that in game gear and mechanics are disputing some of what is being said here. I don't want to argue I just wanted to share my experience. Thank you.


Again, it's Abyssea. Briareus is an NM in the mid 80's or so at most, and a Puppetmaster with Soulsoother is pretty much like having a pocket White Mage there for you. They don't have to worry about taking care of their own cures or anything like that. Abyssea really isn't a very good indicator of a job's capabilities, because Cruor Buffs and Atmas heavily sway things. That being said, if you had a well geared Monk and a comparably well geared Puppetmaster fighting Briareus, the Monk is almost certainly going to pull ahead of the Puppetmaster damage wise by a good bit because of Kick Attacks and Impetus, which is the same situation that a Puppetmaster in a zerg would most likely be in since his Automaton wouldn't survive for very long.
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#88 Feb 18 2013 at 4:00 PM Rating: Excellent
Zelduh wrote:
PUP and MNK's damage is nearly identical without the automaton, MNK only has a tiny edge, even in a fully-buffed superhasted etc. zerg situation. Guess what makes up for that tiny gap MNK has over PUP? The puppet. It's that simple. Show me math to prove the puppet is useless or that will remain the reality. No one cares about pet damage, that's why everyone thinks the job sucks.


I'm really struggling to not think you are doing this just for the sake of arguing.
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#89 Feb 18 2013 at 7:25 PM Rating: Good
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Zelduh wrote:
PUP and MNK's damage is nearly identical without the automaton,

POIDH

Okay again I admit I'm new to the pup forums, is zelduh just egging people on? Or is this a real argument?
I mean a baseball bat and a broomstick are nearly identical, but you'd never see a broomstick in mlb.
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#90 Feb 18 2013 at 7:54 PM Rating: Excellent
Peimei wrote:
Zelduh wrote:
PUP and MNK's damage is nearly identical without the automaton,

POIDH

Okay again I admit I'm new to the pup forums, is zelduh just egging people on? Or is this a real argument?
I mean a baseball bat and a broomstick are nearly identical, but you'd never see a broomstick in mlb.


I honestly don't know anymore.

PUP it's a great job for multiple tasks, but zerg is not one of them, that's what we were arguing, or so i thought.
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#91 Feb 20 2013 at 2:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Peimei wrote:
Zelduh wrote:
PUP and MNK's damage is nearly identical without the automaton,

POIDH

Okay again I admit I'm new to the pup forums, is zelduh just egging people on? Or is this a real argument?
I mean a baseball bat and a broomstick are nearly identical, but you'd never see a broomstick in mlb.


Until I read this thread, I thought he was just out of the loop on XI. You know, one of those returning players not really sure what's going on anymore? Well, after being a part of the thread over in general and coming here to see this one, yea he's just egging people on. Jinte has thrown math + math + math + math all over the place and nothing convinces this guy of reality. Same as in general. Screen shots, benchmarks, FPS meters, whatever.

I applaud the admins for the epic patience they are displaying, because.... wow.

Then again, <3 the entertainment.
#93 Feb 20 2013 at 8:09 PM Rating: Good
Zelduh wrote:
lol @ new or returning player. I've been playing since day one of release :P


and that entitles you to...?
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#94 Feb 20 2013 at 8:17 PM Rating: Decent
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OK, that was a bit much to take in, while most of it was directed at one person in particular (couldn't it have therefore been sent in a private message? Why would it need to be out in public, if the work you've already done is already available publicly?), it was a very interesting read for someone who is just now returning to the game, and who never took PUP beyond level 20. That being said, with all the detail that you gave above, how do you still validate playing the job? I ask this not out of sarcasm, but rather as someone who decided that rather than picking up Dragoon or Summoner (which where my highest jobs on the one account I have left to me, the other having had it's characters deleted for some reason), I would level Puppetmaster (currently doing the quest to get the level 30 frame choice). Is it pointless for me to continue playing this class, and to stick to a job that has a solid and straightforward role in a party (Dragoon, Samurai, etc)? How do you validate your existence as a Puppetmaster, knowing that it is not able to perform as well as other jobs without the perfect gear and perfect knowledge of play? Thank you for the huge amount of information you gave...truly outstanding, and I applaud your work. I contributed something similar in the Japanese community years ago towards Dragoons, before they fell out of favor.

Cheers!

PS - If this Zelduh guy (such an...."original"...name) is so bad, why do people even bother replying to him?
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#95 Feb 20 2013 at 8:43 PM Rating: Excellent
Samuraiken wrote:
OK, that was a bit much to take in, while most of it was directed at one person in particular (couldn't it have therefore been sent in a private message? Why would it need to be out in public, if the work you've already done is already available publicly?), it was a very interesting read for someone who is just now returning to the game, and who never took PUP beyond level 20. That being said, with all the detail that you gave above, how do you still validate playing the job? I ask this not out of sarcasm, but rather as someone who decided that rather than picking up Dragoon or Summoner (which where my highest jobs on the one account I have left to me, the other having had it's characters deleted for some reason), I would level Puppetmaster (currently doing the quest to get the level 30 frame choice). Is it pointless for me to continue playing this class, and to stick to a job that has a solid and straightforward role in a party (Dragoon, Samurai, etc)? How do you validate your existence as a Puppetmaster, knowing that it is not able to perform as well as other jobs without the perfect gear and perfect knowledge of play? Thank you for the huge amount of information you gave...truly outstanding, and I applaud your work. I contributed something similar in the Japanese community years ago towards Dragoons, before they fell out of favor.

Cheers!

PS - If this Zelduh guy (such an...."original"...name) is so bad, why do people even bother replying to him?


Sorry you if you drew the wrong conclusions since the whole thread is a mess now, as i said on a different post, puppetmaster its a really fun job and performs extremely well on several scenarios and situations, it just happens that Zerging down an end game enemy its not one of them, we can still participate but its not going to be any where optimal, since we lack the innate tools to do so, its just bad luck that most of the current endgame relies on extreme speed because of time restrictions.
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#97 Feb 21 2013 at 1:03 PM Rating: Default
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Touche, Zelduh. I was more referring to the way you swapped the "a" with "uh", something that makes the "duh" seem entirely appropriate in this thread...especially (as someone who came here looking for information), there hasn't been any to back up your claims. If they're wrong, why don't you prove them wrong? What better way to conquer your enemies and stand upon their corpses in triumph? The problem is, doing it...without being verbally decapitated by Jinte (she's fierce!). Besides, my name wasn't the point of the comment. If you must know, though, the goal wasn't originality.

So the main point to take home in this thread is that if we want to do "end game stuff", PUP isn't it, at least not unless we have an understanding linkshell or bribe money? Guess I'll go decide on DRG or BLU, then (SMN is too constrained by MP, unless this has changed in the years I was away).
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Quote:
Hadasui readies JP-button.
Hadasui gains the effect of OMFGWTF.
Hadasui obtains: A Pwn Katana +1.
Perce : U want 2 pT?
Hadasui : JPONRY!

♠ ´¨)
¸.·´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·` (¸Hadasui:SMN75·PLD75·DRG67♠ ´¨)
#99 Feb 21 2013 at 3:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Zelduh wrote:
If you plan on using PUP for endgame you might as well throw yourself off a cliff, the endgame elitists have made sure that will never happen. You simply won't be allowed, there's too much stigma thanks to people like Jinte raving on about how lame the job is, since he personally has a distaste for it. That's what it boils down to, people simply have the l o l pup mentality, they don't like the job, so it's not included in anything.


Jinte has a distaste for it? Do you even come to these forums but more than once a decade? She is probably one of the fiercest and most loyal players of the puppetmaster class, like, EVER (and I did say that in my very best cheerleader "duh" voice!)

Also, don't be blatently insulting. If you had half a clue or spent any time at all on these forums.. Well nevermind. You're a lost cause.
#100 Feb 22 2013 at 5:51 AM Rating: Excellent
Zelduh wrote:
If you plan on using PUP for endgame you might as well throw yourself off a cliff, the endgame elitists have made sure that will never happen. You simply won't be allowed, there's too much stigma thanks to people like Jinte raving on about how lame the job is, since he personally has a distaste for it. That's what it boils down to, people simply have the l o l pup mentality, they don't like the job, so it's not included in anything.


Jinte loves the job, but, just like anyone else who stops and analyzes things objectively and without bias, she knows that there are limitations to the job and that there are certain situations it doesn't excel at. For low man farming, smaller events such as Meebles, Salvage, etc, the job works fine and works really well, but when it comes to zerg situations, it just falls flat. Your automaton is going to get decimated quickly and repeatedly (for reasons I've mentioned multiple times previously), your damage is going to fall behind a Monk's because of what Monk has at its disposal, if your Automaton would be able to survive, you're greatly overestimating the kind of damage output they'd put on the table in a zerg situation, and just the simple fact that Puppetmaster, just like Monk and all one handed jobs, falls well short of two-handed jobs just due to level correction. Even before the fight started, they'd be at a huge disadvantage in comparison to two-handed DD on any high level monster.

People don't bring Puppetmasters to events not because they don't like the job, but because they don't offer enough to the table to warrant the spot. They'd be a bottom tier DD in any zerg situation (assuming competent and well geared DD all around), and your automaton, in the face of repeated one shot attacks, is just going to be dead weight, which isn't what someone putting together a zerg party/alliance is going to want.

Jinte is the last person that'd say that Puppetmaster is a lame job and that she doesn't like it, but she accepts the job's faults and won't blindly make it out to be better than it really is just because she'd like it to be better. It's the same as what I mentioned with Dragoon in one of my earlier posts. I love the job. It's one of my favorite jobs and always has been, but I'll admit its limitations and difficulties in standing with the "big boy" DD's such as Warrior and Dark Knight in a zerg situation.

You need to approach this from an unbiased perspective and look at it the way that someone whose view on the job isn't based on fanboyism or criticism from the community. Just look at it in comparison to other jobs in the situation you're putting them in (an end-game zerg situation) and you'll see its limitations.
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Lady Jinte wrote:

Vlorsutes' Negotiation Skill rises 0.2 points
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#101 Feb 24 2013 at 8:45 PM Rating: Excellent
is Happy on Friday!
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12,443 posts
Zelduh wrote:
If you plan on using PUP for endgame you might as well throw yourself off a cliff, the endgame elitists have made sure that will never happen. You simply won't be allowed, there's too much stigma thanks to people like Jinte raving on about how lame the job is, since he personally has a distaste for it. That's what it boils down to, people simply have the l o l pup mentality, they don't like the job, so it's not included in anything.


I love that you keep raving about me even though I haven't played since last summer and only post very rarely anymore for my own amusement. I didn't know you had such passionate feelings for me. Smiley: laugh

Professor Shock Vlorsutes wrote:
Zelduh wrote:
If you plan on using PUP for endgame you might as well throw yourself off a cliff, the endgame elitists have made sure that will never happen. You simply won't be allowed, there's too much stigma thanks to people like Jinte raving on about how lame the job is, since he personally has a distaste for it. That's what it boils down to, people simply have the l o l pup mentality, they don't like the job, so it's not included in anything.


Jinte loves the job, but, just like anyone else who stops and analyzes things objectively and without bias, she knows that there are limitations to the job and that there are certain situations it doesn't excel at. For low man farming, smaller events such as Meebles, Salvage, etc, the job works fine and works really well, but when it comes to zerg situations, it just falls flat. Your automaton is going to get decimated quickly and repeatedly (for reasons I've mentioned multiple times previously), your damage is going to fall behind a Monk's because of what Monk has at its disposal, if your Automaton would be able to survive, you're greatly overestimating the kind of damage output they'd put on the table in a zerg situation, and just the simple fact that Puppetmaster, just like Monk and all one handed jobs, falls well short of two-handed jobs just due to level correction. Even before the fight started, they'd be at a huge disadvantage in comparison to two-handed DD on any high level monster.

People don't bring Puppetmasters to events not because they don't like the job, but because they don't offer enough to the table to warrant the spot. They'd be a bottom tier DD in any zerg situation (assuming competent and well geared DD all around), and your automaton, in the face of repeated one shot attacks, is just going to be dead weight, which isn't what someone putting together a zerg party/alliance is going to want.

Jinte is the last person that'd say that Puppetmaster is a lame job and that she doesn't like it, but she accepts the job's faults and won't blindly make it out to be better than it really is just because she'd like it to be better. It's the same as what I mentioned with Dragoon in one of my earlier posts. I love the job. It's one of my favorite jobs and always has been, but I'll admit its limitations and difficulties in standing with the "big boy" DD's such as Warrior and Dark Knight in a zerg situation.

You need to approach this from an unbiased perspective and look at it the way that someone whose view on the job isn't based on fanboyism or criticism from the community. Just look at it in comparison to other jobs in the situation you're putting them in (an end-game zerg situation) and you'll see its limitations.


I also love that you guys keep defending me against his criticisms despite my obvious disappearance, and don't even mention that I've vanished. Smiley: inlove


KaynofTitan wrote:
I wish I could give you an excact number, but one of the things that hurts us the most is that the Automaton is not getting any buffs like cor rolls and brd songs or haste and that maneuvers have a job ability delay associated with them which is like, 2 seconds, if you understand how much 2 seconds on a high haste situation is you will get it, and no I don't think its 2-3% its way more, crunching numbers is not easy, and god knows if jinte would take the time to do it again.


Honestly, I love doing FFXI math. I haven't played since August but I still play with FFXI numbers from time to time, just because I find it relaxing and entertaining. Obviously, at this point, I'm entirely out of the loop a far as gear selection, mobs, and general play styles are concerned, but I tell you guys what; I will happily crunch out the numbers for you so we can have a definitive answer to this ******* issue. However, as I'm a bit out dated, I'll need the following stuff from you guys:

- The Target Fight, including the NM's level, nasty TP moves, and defensive stats (as best they're known, so one with more definitively known stats would be the best choice), as well as any other potential quirks of the fight, including annoying **** like sudden onset temporary damage resistance or whether or not the NM in question is being fought in a method where it can't actually **** with you (read: stunlocked or fanaticspam/PD, specificy which because they're obviously very different, or some other alternative I'm not aware of).

- How long the fight lasts, specifically, how long the two will be standing next to the mob without moving and just wailing on it, and whether or not they have prep time before the fight with which they can buff and potentially get TP (and whether or not they do so)

- The Alliance set up (if it's an alliance fight); the members of the party the pup and monk are in (if they're in different parties, with different set ups, that's also potentially important) are the most important factor, but if it's a fight where you've got rotating brds/cors giving everyone crazy buffs, the buffs everyone is getting would be important to now.

- I'm assuming we're talking two level 99s here, so I'll want the merit layouts and subjobs for both the monk and the pup, as well as which puppet the pup is using. And don't just arbitrarily assign merits to the monk to favor the pup, get a real, solid layout. I'll also want to know which WS the monk and pup are relying on primarily for the fight (since SP vs SS is situational and monks have ******** of different WS to rely on by comparison).

- Also important, though only moderately so, give me at race if you want me to account for something other than hume, and give me that race's stats at 99/49 for both jobs, specifically str/dex/vit/agi, but the others too, if you think they're important.

- A ******* of gear, specifically all of the following:
--- The Pup's: TP set, Stringing Pummel Set, Shijin Spiral Set (both would be ideal, but the priority is the one the pup is going to be using heavily), PDT/MDT sets if applicable, which puppet they're using, that puppet's attachment set up, and any other sets you think might be important
--- The Mnk's: TP set, Primary and Secondary WS sets (I'm assuming we're talking Shijin Spiral and something else, but I flat out can't remember what other ws would be competitive with it outside of VS, which I'll get to in a minute), PDT/MDT sets if applicable, and any other sets you think might be important, such as the mnk having two different TP sets, switching between them depending on whether impetus is up or down
--- I don't mind accounting for R/M/E either, but I will want you to tell me whether or not to bother, whether or not to consider Aftermath and if I should consider different levels of it (I assume not, unless they get time to build TP before hand to start off with that 300 TP aftermath; also, this is primarily for empy, since spharai's aftermath is lawl and Vere's aftermath is just sort of assumed given how beast VS is) and also, primarily for Verethragna, I'll want both the pup and the mnk's VS ws sets (if you want me to account for ascetic's fury, I'll want that WS set too. I'll need a legit pro monk to seriously ask for final heaven to be considered though, because lolfinalheaven)
--- Also note that unless there are new job abilities that are somehow a thing but not noted anywhere, I already know how to consider gear for stuff like Chakra or Maneuvers, which I will be considering the potential use of, and specifically for maneuvers, I'll do both with and without them.

So, the tl;dr list of ****: target mob, alliance-provided buffs, any potential fight quirks, subjob, merits, all relevant gear sets, and any other miscellaneous **** you think I forgot to mention.

On a totally unrelated note; I made a pupskin for minecraft!
Screenshot
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LOLGAXE IS MY ETERNAL RIVAL!

Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
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