Dalans wrote:
As an After thought I realized Jinte read my post and went on to reply with precise helpful info and not once berated me for my ignorance.
I feel proud of Jinte and perhaps a little cheated personally.
I feel proud of Jinte and perhaps a little cheated personally.
Zelduh wrote:
Except I'm not trolling, but nothing I say will convince you people because of such narrow-mindedness so I'm not gonna bother.
Pups, especially long-time pups, are the @#%^ing antithesis of Narrow-minded
Zelduh wrote:
MNK doesn't have access to any more TA or DA than PUP does, and haste is irrelevant because PUP can easily cap it. The tiny damage difference MNK has over PUP is easily made up with the puppet. The end.
Nothing I say will convince you people that PUP is a good damage dealer, so there's no point in this discussion. It's like discussing religion. It's pointless to try and thus I'm not going to bother
Nothing I say will convince you people that PUP is a good damage dealer, so there's no point in this discussion. It's like discussing religion. It's pointless to try and thus I'm not going to bother
Regardless of which job has access to more DA or TA (since for this point, Zelduh's not necessarily wrong, if you only account for practical DA options, and he is, sadly, correct as far as TA is concerned, since every TA piece either job can wear has both mnk and pup on it), you're vastly overestimating the puppet's performance in a zerg, and vastly underestimating the difference in damage between a mnk and a pup in a zerg. Let's take a look here:
If you generously assume that both the mnk and the pup have equal DA, TA, Haste, Crit Rate. Store TP, and Regain, and that they're both using the same weapon (in this case, let's say STR path oxyuranis; note that this also means both will have the same attack speed) the raw stat difference is going to come out something like this:
Mnk:
Attack: +15~20 (before gear)
Accuracy: +15~20 (before gear)
Base STR: +~6 (Varies by race, this is comparing two humes) (also note that pup and mnk have equal base dex)
Base Damage +2 (51 to pup's 49)
Kick Attacks +27% (with kicks having a weapon D of +45, so 96)
Impetus
Focus
Counter (pulling hate on mnk INCREASES your damage by a good margin, if you have the right gear)
Pup:
Automaton (I'll math this out to demonstrate what it adds and why it's not enough)
TP/hit: +0.2 (before store TP; 5.1 to mnk's 4.9)
Significantly higher evasion
First and foremost, let's cover the first massive advantage mnk has over pup; Impetus. Ignoring the attack gain, impetus, to achieve it's max buff, requires the mnk land 50 consecutive hits (ie: not missing 50 attacks in a row). Note, however, that this is attacks,and not attack rounds. If TA procs twice and KA procs as well, and they all hit, that's 7 attacks for the count. Now, at 50 hits, the bonus caps off at a staggering Crit hit Rate +50% as well as Crit hit Damage +50% (if AF3+2 body is worn). If both players are using the same weapon, at haste cap they will have the same attack speed, and due to martial arts, the pup will even get slightly more TP/hit, however, the 27% kick rate will negate that extra TP fairly quickly, and doesn't even begin to cover how huge the damage output difference will be due to impetus. Even if it's not maintained at max, in this situation, it will average out to still be a large increase to crit rate and crit damage (how it averages depends on what you're fighting, but even being generous towards pup, it'd be ~20% for each, so ~15% once you account for impetus' duration, realistically, in a high acc/haste situation, it'd be more like ~25% with duration accounted for).
Now let's look at kick attacks. 27% means that 1 in four of the mnk's attack rounds will have an extra hit (not accounting for the AF3+2 set bonus adding a second kick, because that sh*t's to annoying to math out, and is at most a 1~2% net increase in KA rate), all of which will have +13 D over the pup's hits and +11 over the mnk's non kicks, and all of which get full (4.9 before store TP) TP return. Thus, while the pup has higher TP/hit, kick attacks means that the monk will average a noticeably larger number of attacks, which means it will gain more TP than the pup, and thus, weapon skill more often.
Further, let's look at WS. If you want to be fair, either both will be using shijin spiral, or the pup will be using stringing pummel. For pup Shijin Spiral and Stringing Pummel are approximately equal in strength, with SS favoring high defense and SP favoring low defense, however a Monk's Shijin Spiral will always average more damage than a pup's (and thus, by extension, will average more than stringing pummel), for one very simple reason: Mnk has access to far, far more good dex gear than pup, and will thus be able to more handily take advantage of SS's 100% dex mod.
Additionally, Mnk will always have an easier time capping pDIF, fSTR, and Hit Rate, and will average higher in all three against the tougher NMs that no one will be capped on. The combination of Impetus, Focus, Kick Attacks, WS rate, and WS Damage results in a rather large lead for the mnk, and this is before accounting for the huge hit to damage output a pup takes if they want their puppet to not suck (read: using maneuvers). In my OP how maintaining 1 manuever every 20 seconds costs pup ~1 ws/minute at capped haste. Consider that; using maneuvers in high haste means that the distance between mnk and pup TP rates will get even larger.
If you give each job 3% TA, 45% DA (based on gear average and buffs), the pup will average 88 attacks/minute, while the monk will average 126. that's 448.8 TP to 617 TP, before store TP, or ~2 WS/minute from kick attacks alone). If pup loses another ws/min due to maneuvers, that means that mnk is putting out twice as many WS as the pup, at higher damage per ws.
Thus, Your puppet needs to average at least 3 WS/minute to even be able to keep up with the mnk, let alone the fact that Armor Shatterer won't necessarily out damage, or even compare to, a mnk's shijin spiral on many zerged mobs. However, for the sake of the argument, let's see what Sharpshot's Max TP rate (since that's what I did for pup and mnk, despite the fact that if I accounted for acc, the mnk would be further ahead, and acc would greatly reduce sharpshot's TP rate as well, because it's melee skill is an awesome C rank) would be with Turbo Charger and Drum Magazine at 3 wind maneuvers (If you're using barrage turbine in a zerg, you're going to lose another 1-2 ws/minute trying to keep maneuvers up).
Sharpshot has 400 base delay (10.2 TP/hit), and 20 seconds between ranged attack (which use 360 delay for TP, so 9.3 TP/hit). With 3x maneuvers, turbo charger will be at 25% haste (300 delay), and Drum Magazine will have Sharpshot at 12 seconds between ranged attacks. After you account for the delay caused by the Ranged Attack animation, you'll effectively have Sharpshot swinging twice for every single time it shoots, or for a total of 15 attacks per minute or 148.5 TP/minute BEFORE accounting for sharpshot's terrible melee accuracy. at 1 ws/minute, there's absolutely no way sharpshot can negate the difference between a mnk and a pup. AND THIS IS WITH SHARPSHOT BUFFED.
So, let's try Valoredge? You know string shredder won't be able to keep up with shijin spiral, but VE should have a higher WS rate, right? Well, the short answer is no. Because VE can't wear gear, vs anything you'd zerg, you would need Targert Marker and Stab II to be able to have decent acc, which means no coiler, which means no double attack, which means with 3x wind maneuvers, VE will average 12 attacks/minute, or 111 TP/minute, which is even worse than sharpshot. The only advantage VE has is that it's less likely to get wasted by any stray AoE.
So yea, Pup cannot out damage a Mnk if both are on equal footing, pet or no pet. Q.E.Mother@#%^ing D.
for getting that damn pronoun right 
