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Did we do smeothing wrong, SE?Follow

#1 Feb 04 2012 at 9:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Looks like COR finally has a nerf coming.

Miser's roll is being rendered useless (at least for ranged attackers and 2H jobs) by converting to a "minimum guaranteed return" rather than an additive return. So basically if you have a Save TP effect of 20 and have a WS that gets 20 TP in return, you get no benefit unless you miss that WS (and really what 2 H misses?).

That's very kind of SE to take the major reason COR's are invited to VW and other events and totally destroy it.

Having gone through the RNG nerf years back and having spent millions of gil levleling both COR and RNG over the years, I can't tell you how much this totally frustrates me.

Only side benefit I see is the reversal of the bandwagon COR effect that seemed to be happening. Was that really such a problem SE?
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#3 Feb 04 2012 at 7:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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SAM roll isn't even close, especially in a situation where AoE are devastating and fanatics drink is not available.

+50 Store TP gives you 10 extra tp back on a WS that normally gives 20
+25 Save TP gives you 25 extra TP on any WS whether it gives 10, 20 or 0 tp (missed WS). Combine that with Discipline atmacite (20 save tp), you are looking at 65 TP returned for WS that normally gives 20. That's a shot and a QD for me on COR. With Regain roll, sometimes its just a QD.

To me VWNM mechanics were working as intended. Why not have a good save TP buff in an event where meleeing toe to toe is dangerous, procs are determined by WS frequency, and temp regen is dependent on Procs. I don't think I heard much complaint about VWNM mechanics, just VW loot system.

if they follow through with save TP nerf, AoE damage nerf, proc necessity reduction, then VWNM becomes a WHM/SAM/BRD onry event.
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#4 Feb 05 2012 at 12:20 AM Rating: Good
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for the **** of it, tell me what these abilities do, and i'll use "the math" and tell you if the nerf matters. p.s. i'm drunk, so please either PM me to remind that i made this post, or respond something really memorable, quickly. good luck with the nerf!
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#6 Feb 05 2012 at 10:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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If SAM roll does the same then why be happy about the nerf? Why shouldn't Miser's be a better roll than SAM roll? Its more expensive and higher level. Shouldn't the higher level rolls outperform lower level rolls? Why did SE feel the need to nerf Miser's if it "did the same thing" as SAM roll. Why didn't they nerf SAM roll as well?

You aren't making a lot of sense Zelduh. I agree its not the end of the world but its a sign (along with the other numerous nerfs in the name of balance).
Ranged attacker jobs have had some of the biggest problems getting traction in the community (along with pet jobs) largely because everytime they seem to be rising in popularity, they get the nerf bat. It seems unless you are a SAM, WAR or WHM SE really doesn't want you around.
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#8 Feb 05 2012 at 3:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Using ffxi calculator, I plugged some numbers into it for a typical setup using a war with a 504 delay gaxe and enough storetp in gear/sam sj to give them a basic 6hit, or rather a 5hit + ws tp, with a 3hit ws (15+19 storetp to achieve the basic hit build).

Without sam/hat enhancing the sam roll, all rolls except 1 and 6 remove a single hit to 100tp after ws. With sam/hat boost, all rolls remove a single hit, and 11 now removes two.

Assuming you get 11 with sam boost, you get 25.2 tp per hit. 18.3 without roll.

Going with ukon's delay, 482, and ukko's base 2hits on ws, the basic hit build remains. Pushing to 15+38 storetp gear though removes a hit. Keeping this, and using rolls without the sam/hat boost, no roll removes a hit except 11. With boost, 2 and 11 remove a hit. Base tp hit without roll is 19.8 and 26.3 with perfect roll.

This is with the ffxi calculator 4.10. It certainly does help, but not as much as we'd hope. The war in question would need specific gear and you'd need to get sam bonus and roll either 2 or 11 for it to even help, though this is assuming no outside sources of regain. Without that specific gear though and it helps a bit more (like going from tactical mantle to atheling, all rolls except 6 put you back to where that tact mantle had you before and perfect roll still pushes you up). If you toss in tact+atmacite+monarch's then any roll will likely shave off a hit to 100tp since it'd just have to tick once to cover that ground.


Now that's all for a war with ukon, how about on an emp cor?

Assuming emp gun 582delay, 240delay bullet, and /sam+loki's+rose strap for 15+11 storetp (just assume we're using loki's for tp and not using quickdraw here). This puts us at a 5hit build.

Unboosted sam rolls: only 2 and 11 remove a hit. Boosted sam rolls: 2, 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11 remove a hit. Combine with tact+atmacite+monarch's and you'll probably get an extra hit removed on some of those due to shooting time. Base tp per hit without roll is 20.9, 29.2 with perfect roll, and 25.2 with 7+boost. Again, this is with ffxi calc 4.10, haven't logged in a couple days so I can't see if it's this way in game, but it seems right (also looking at this thread from the rng forum: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=261&mid=127897977681588297&h=50 ).

It's still not ws, qd, ws, shoot, ws, qd, ws, shoot, ws, etc, but it's pretty close and at least useful everywhere. Still sucks that miser's will go into the pile of not so useful rolls we have.
#9 Feb 05 2012 at 5:25 PM Rating: Good
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Zelduh wrote:
No, it's just that people are too quick to jump on the cookie-cutter bangwagon and fail to see any other methods. If anything, if this stops bandwagon CORs for leveling the job for Miser's, then THANK GOD it was nerfed. A good COR can make up for whatever mysterious benefit you think Miser's gave you, but now that every epeen bandwagonner thinks COR will suck without it, they won't touch the job :)


if the benefit of Miser's was only perceived and not a real benefit, can you explain to me why SE felt the need to nerf it?
I'm missing a step in logic. By your reasoning, a COR rolling SAM/Tact rolls was equal to a COR rolling Misers/Tact. Yet the population viewed Miser's as broken. And the SE dev team agreed it was broken and nerfed Misers. But they didn't touch SAM roll which by your reasoning was equally effective and therefore must also be broken, by logical conclusion.

So if you can make this all make sense, I'm all ears. But I'm totally missing why SE did what they did unless there was clearly a major problem with Misers roll.

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#11 Feb 05 2012 at 9:46 PM Rating: Good
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Zelduh wrote:
It wasn't broken, people just thought it was broken, and SE saw people using it and adjusted it. SE didn't see anyone using SAM roll, so of course they're not adjusting it.


Again, this doesn't make logical sense. If SE didn't think it was broken, why would they worry about the perceived notion of brokenness? Why would they not want COR to use their shiny new rolls at high levels? They were the ones that provided a Save TP atmacite after charging CORs 100,000 gil for Misers roll. They knew what it would do. To play the "oops, we want you to roll a level 60 roll rather than a level 90 roll in endgame, sorry" card is pretty asinine.

And besides, the only complaints of brokenness I saw were the "lol this is a nice buff" kind of way. Not "it's ruining the game" kind of way. Just like we mention that WHM is broken but are glad it is.

In the end, if it wasn't broken there was no good reason to nerf it since COR's spent good gil on this roll. If it was broken, then making it worse than an old roll certainly was a poor fix since COR"s spent good gil on this roll. Either way, SE are being asses.


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#12 Feb 05 2012 at 10:25 PM Rating: Good
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They must have felt the 'hit once then ws' manner of things was a bit too overpowered. Perhaps they had planned more save-tp eq and this would have allowed continuous ws spam like pre-tp-return nerf days (meaning derpdevs not knowing what it is they're giving us until we use it splendidly). Now to see if they'll think 'hit twice then ws' isn't overpowered.
#13 Feb 11 2012 at 11:33 AM Rating: Good
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I'm a bit late, but I was out of town the last couple of weeks. I think Zelduh is missing a few of the advantages of the current Miser's Roll over Sam Roll.

First is versatility. SAM roll obviously doesn't benefit all jobs equally, low-delay weapons being the obvious example. Miser's gives the same TP bonus to all jobs, helping all DDs equally.

Second is consistency. As explained by orinthia above, there are many cases where even 2-handed jobs won't gain anything unless you roll lucky or 11. Barring an unlucky roll, Miser's is beneficial to all DDs no matter what is rolled.

Third is situation. With virtually all our new content, strategies revolve around the DDs running to the mob, trying a WS proc, then GTFO. No amount of STP is going to help when you're not actively attacking the mob.

tl;dr: There's a reason SAM roll wasn't the standard go-to, end-all roll in the past, but yes it was situationally awesome as it still is. I guess it's a moot point to argue though, since Miser's will soon be changing.
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#14 Feb 17 2012 at 5:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Dartagnann wrote:
Zelduh wrote:
No, it's just that people are too quick to jump on the cookie-cutter bangwagon and fail to see any other methods. If anything, if this stops bandwagon CORs for leveling the job for Miser's, then THANK GOD it was nerfed. A good COR can make up for whatever mysterious benefit you think Miser's gave you, but now that every epeen bandwagonner thinks COR will suck without it, they won't touch the job :)


if the benefit of Miser's was only perceived and not a real benefit, can you explain to me why SE felt the need to nerf it?
I'm missing a step in logic. By your reasoning, a COR rolling SAM/Tact rolls was equal to a COR rolling Misers/Tact. Yet the population viewed Miser's as broken. And the SE dev team agreed it was broken and nerfed Misers. But they didn't touch SAM roll which by your reasoning was equally effective and therefore must also be broken, by logical conclusion.

So if you can make this all make sense, I'm all ears. But I'm totally missing why SE did what they did unless there was clearly a major problem with Misers roll.




Watch this vid carefully, some JP played with save TP buffs after it came out and made a vid of endless WS by stacking save TP and store TP, after every WS you're instantly 100 TP again, that TP phrase is no longer relevant.

http://nicoviewer.net/sm16360571


Apparently SE doesn't want TP phrase to be so irrelevant, nor having a way to stack such huge amount of save TP to have unlimited WS.

I believe that's the main reason they nerf it, since they used to nerf multi-hit WS TP return too. Just that COR got a hit due to having those buffs.


And lol@ bandwagon talk above. I lv my bandwagon COR to 99 for VW, I /rage ;D


Edited, Feb 17th 2012 6:34am by Afania
#15 Feb 18 2012 at 7:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Is there a way to get enough Store TP to get 55 TP after a WS? Max Save TP is 45 with atmacite and XI Misers. I thought even a pimped out SAM couldn't get that high. If you had a 20 TP return WS it would need 200 Store TP to get to 60 TP return.

In any event the proper fix was to maximize TP returned after a WS to 50 or 60 and be done with it.

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