Sub job COR?Follow

Statistical if it indeed lowered everyone's hit/WS ratio by rolling a 2,7,8,9,10,11, then you would double up on a 6(unlucky). You would not reroll on any of the others. It is a good point however, that some % of the time (albiet small); the roll would be detrimental.

I think the effectiveness of this roll is probably pretty small due to the unlikeliness of everyone being +13 STP (or less) from lose a hit to WS. On a seperate note: On merit parties that consist of 1 BRD, 1 healer, and 4 DD; if one of the DD is a DRK; the weakest DD (or DD whos sub noramlly gives the least) should definately /COR for chaos roll. It will give 13.7% att on avg to 4 players. I doubt that a person who is doing 20% of the parse will make that up with a DD sub.


So as far as /COR never being situational, in this situation, someone should take a small hit to thier epeen to add this kind of damage to a group. Even the greatest defenders of DD sub DD only should be able to see this.



Edited, Nov 15th 2009 5:20pm by doctorugh

You know, I throw the question back at you. Surely, you did show that a GKT wielding SAM would not be able to easily drop to 5-hit, meaning /COR didn't distinguish itself from non-DD subs regarding the SAM himself (as I affirmed that if it could drop the SAM a hit, it'd soften the DPS loss from other non-DD subs).

But your argument regarding other jobs is pretty insufficient to justify your arrogance and lack of respect.

Not only that, you seem to fail to comprehend that at not even one single point of this thread I advocated that /COR was good (which points back to your own question). I did, however, affirmed that most here, specially yourself, were taking in account only the /COR's DMG, and not the others in the group. Having to sacrifice 1-2 slots to top that TP boost to shave a hit is more the acceptable, in fact it's what every single SAM does prior to Usukane boots.

To a more serious note, and getting back to Milich:
About that point we both spoke of (that a less SJ dependent person should be the one to attempt this, if at all useful). Isn't however SAM the less SJ dependent among the 2h weapon wielder jobs? This isn't meant as a rhetorical question, I in fact do not know some of the other 2h weapon wielder jobs, but it seems that every single one of them would get a higher boost from subbing SAM then SAM would from subbing DRG.

And to you both:
For the love of God, stop with this "self-righteousness" crap just because I don't swallow what you both toss in these forums IF failing in argument. If my self-righteousness bothers you so much, you could think twice before writing a post such as you last (for Shinta).

Good lord, you're 2 of the biggest help many of the SAMs here will ever see, but it seems you both let that go over your head way too much... Or maybe you think I keep coming here (even tho I don't play anymore) with the single intention of discussing with you). Preposterous......

Edited, Nov 15th 2009 7:14pm by sbrubles


Late edit: out of curiosity I read the thread again, cept for the sub-default posts (so if it's in one of them you probably have part in the guilt for me not seeing it), and still all I see was stuff from the line:
"/DRG and /WAR are better then /COR because they do more DMG", or "SAM is a DD job, so it has to sub a real DD SJ". Honestly, I sympathize with both arguments, but different situations must be considered sometimes.

So I think I'll have to agree with you, I must have some reading issues. I really didn't see any post that could possibly answer to mine.

Edited, Nov 15th 2009 7:48pm by sbrubles

Yeah, but we were mainly talking about sam since that's the only job we're guaranteed to have. At least if you roll a 6, you can temp roll something else and then be back on sam in 2 minutes, if you actually bust you're out for 5.

Let me look at the math for STP on other jobs, don't have it offhand like I do for sam.

For the third+ time, everyone needs to already be taking a large hit to their DD from wasted slots to get any bonus, on top of the /COR taking a huge hit.
As a DRK as well, I'd -love- to see you try to qualify that.
No job out of the ones he listed would be able to easily drop to 5-hit 1)because people don't wear +STP over the minimum they need and 2)because those jobs have much less +sTP gear to choose from (hi2uhachi/usu sets) I'm not even sure it's possible to get enough for DRK and DRG (it would take a bunch of slots, WAR would probably need hachiryu). It's ridiculous to think that the SAM/COR is the only one "sacrificing his epeen" to help the party. The overall gain compared to the loss is absolute crap to the point where there is no reason this conversation should have made two pages other than people having their heads stuck up their asses.
I was not, which should have been obvious from my posts that I linked (which is why I linked them) had you actually read them.
74-35-5(rajas)-8(hachiman)-13(roll)= 13 sTP
What are you sacrificing that lets you do that in "1 slot"? If you recall, if you're sacrificing slots pre-merits (only 10sTP) it's ~50:50 vs just using "good" gear, and we have access to better DD options and more haste later which means you're sacrificing that much more. (note that this is for the non-COR SAMs as well, and keep that in mind when you're trying to decide how much that roll actaully "helps" the PT)
From the tone of your post you came in here with the sole intention of being an self-righteous ass and insulting people who replied honestly to the OP's dead horse thread just because it wasn't instantly obvious to you what the clear answer was like it was to the rest of us.

Fuck Off,

~The Management







CB0, if you ever want to grow up to be a big strong troll that people take seriously at all, you should pay attention to SB here, he's the real deal.

Edited, Nov 15th 2009 10:15pm by shintasama

if you want to troll with me, you're at least a year late. i don't give a sh*t about any of this, and i certainly don't give a sh*t about you (or the bumbling sbrubles). i think your SAM/COR question was perfectly valid, the responses were valid, and gauging your damage loss or other possibilities to get rolls or whatever is also valid. the crybaby nonsense about group think is not valid. it's horribly boring and misguided. no one's railing against you in this thread, they're just stating their opinions and reacting to trolls. if you yourself are trolling, congratulations, you elicited moderately annoyed responses from 2 people on a board that no one seems to read or post on anymore.

edit: and the "no u" nonsense is really moronic if you're *not* trolling. you're arguing about tone and your feelings, ie nothing. shut up.

Edited, Nov 16th 2009 2:23am by milich

I'm just pointing out the obvious hypocracy. And of you "dont give a sh*t", you wouldnt do rates and posts on this thread. I've seen enough of your posts to know you have the ablity to control youself and make good/useful posts, but if someone butts heads with you; you result to name-calling, cursing, and general rudeness. This isnt the first time I've seen you drop several posts on something you "dont care about". I suggest you develop some internal fortitude to opposition, otherwise the big red button on your head will continue to be pressed at the amusement of others.

If you have more than one roll that you could use such as you have a DRK, RNG, and SAM in the same party then /COR becomes better. It means that if you get an unlucky roll something else, and if you get lucky keep that new roll. Otherwise try again for what you were unlucky on. That would cut down on the time where you have a good roll vs a bad roll.

also as said before if you could know before the party started who was the weakest DD then subbing COR could be even more help, as the weakest would lose a little damage but the strongest would gain more damage.

Edited, Nov 16th 2009 10:56am by darkhorror

careful with the "i've seen other posts of yours", you don't want to be that guy who researches someone else to provide argument fodder. anyway, i don't give a sh*t about the personality games (the ones i'm chastising you for). i post b/c i have an opinion about including them in what could otherwise be a valid thread.

i know it's hard for people to see "i don't give a sh*t about xxx" and not interpret it as "OH YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYTHING WHY DO YOU POST I GOT YOU". that's pretty sad. this whole thread is sad, albeit less sad than the usual flamewar i suppose.

Its nothing new, whats been discussed /cor for sam. We know STP roll SAM/COR is generally no good, because you won't turn SAM into 5HIT (unless you XI) and the chances of knocking others a hit varies.

In regards to getting an average of 13.7% more att from SAM/COR with a DRK in the pty, can i ask you how you came up with 13.7% more att on average, considering a bust is -5% & nothing for melee for 5mins?

Also 13.7% more att doesn't mean 13.7% more DMG - its actually more for birds. Say a melee gets this boost on-top off 460att & a Bird with Dia II up using a Hagun with 4fSTR.

79 * (460/277 -0.35) = 103DMG

with 13.7% more att...

79 * (523/277 -0.35) = 121

The 13.7 att yields an additional 17.5% in the SAM's melee DMG (probably no affect or very little affect on the main part of SAM's dmg, which is ws (70%ws, 30% melee) but for other DD's, thats a nice addition.

BUT, why not just get an actual COR instead of a weak DD to make full advantage of that DRK in the pty. The DRK would keep its x-hit build + the huge buff hasso gives from /SAM, and the COR main gets to increase the 3DD's dmg by (just doubling your 13.7& to 27.4% average att from COR + DRK) to 35% more DMG for the 3DD#s + their own dmg adding ~5-15% to the parse, AND an ITG exp roll to top it all off. That many times better than a DD/COR, or any /COR-in-meripo stuff.

when you get to 75, you have completely fit into your job, enhancing it to the fullest for the pty. When your lvl10-40, thats the time to mix & match sj's for the good of the exp party.

Well, there is no reason to ever bust on chaos roll, you would just stick on unlucky 8 for a 6% att bonus.

As far as 13.7% its not exact (its actually a little higher),but I just took roll 4(lucky),6,7,8,9,10,11 and averaged them for 13.7%

You would have a 1/6 chance for 4 on the first roll, then if you didnt get that you would have a 1/6 change to hit each of the other rolls past 5.

Of course I agree BRD + COR is the ideal way to go. IDK about your server but they arent always available (nor a 2nd brd) when I'm wanting to merit. Generally I switch to COR when one isnt available, but doing that every time isnt exactly fun.


Edited, Nov 16th 2009 6:15pm by doctorugh

Just to try and keep on subject slightly, finished analysis of how likely each job will actually benefit from sam roll (had real work to do so took a while) Also assumed same STP for WS and TP phase even though this often doesn't occur just for simplicity sakes, plus I didn't really wanna analyze THAT deep into everything.

Fortunately most of the 2H jobs have access to the same STP gear so that part of the analysis is simpler. (SAM excluded) Included /NIN stuff for reference even though the trend nowadays seems to be /SAM all the way. Didn't include SAM since it's pretty much been covered.

WAR

4 STP - Fake 7-hit
5 STP - 7-hit
19 STP - Fake 6-hit
22 STP - 6-hit
43 STP - Fake 5-hit
46 STP - 5-hit

7-hit is easily obtainable.
Rolls of 7+ required for /NIN with Rajas/Brutal get a Fake 6-hit
Rolls of 9+ required for /NIN with Rajas/Brutal get a 6-hit
Rolls of Lucky+ required for /SAM with 6-hit (Rajas/Brutal/Ech?) to get a Fake 5-hit
Rolls of 11 required for /SAM with 6-hit to get a 5-hit

DRK - Sickle/Nagle (For Nagle just remove all the Fake stuff)

5 STP - Fake 7-hit
6 STP - 7-hit
19 STP - Fake 6-hit
23 STP - 6-hit
42 STP - Fake 5-hit
48 STP - 5-hit

7-hit is easily obtainable.
Rolls of 7+ required for /NIN with Rajas/Brutal get a Fake 6-hit
Rolls of 10+ required for /NIN with Rajas/Brutal get a 6-hit
Rolls of Lucky+ required for /SAM with 6-hit (Rajas/Brutal/Ech/Chiv? or maybe Rose, dunno what people use or if people even bother to get non Fake 6-hit) to get a Fake 5-hit. 10+ if using Rose.
Rolls of 11 required for /SAM with 6-hit to get a 5-hit

DRK - Scythe

13 STP - Fake 6-hit
16 STP - 6-hit
34 STP - Fake 5-hit
39 STP - 5-hit

Any 7+ roll will give 6-hit to /NIN.
6-hit easily obtainable with /SAM.
Rolls 7+ will give Fake 5-hit with basic Rajas/Brutal for /SAM.
Rolls Lucky+ will give 5-hit with basic Rajas/Brutal for /SAM.

DRG - 492 Lance

5 STP - Fake 7-hit
8 STP - 7-hit
22 STP - Fake 6-hit
26 STP - 6-hit
45 STP - Fake 5-hit
51 STP - 5-hit

Fake 7-hit easily obtainable. 7-hit reasonable easy.
Rolls 7+ will give Fake 6-hit with 7-hit (Rajas/Brutal/Askar or Aurum or Rose) for /NIN.
Rolls 8 or 9+ (depending on third STP piece) will give 6-hit with 7-hit for /NIN.
Just looking at the 26 for 6-hit, I know actual builds must be using more than 26 in TP and less in WS but dunno what off the top of my head so the number itself is semi fishy. But looks like you need Lucky+ to get Fake 5-hit (Not sure about getting non Fake)

So yeah, this was probably too long, had too many assumptions and what not but there's just too many gear combos that people use for me to want to account for them all. But just looking at it in general, if 2H's are /NINing, the roll will probably benefit them. If they're /SAMing, you'll need very high rolls to give a benefit. 528 scythe DRK's seem to be an exception as they seem to benefit in almost all circumstances. And I guess if they don't know jack about STP and don't gear for it at all, chances are it'll benefit them.

I'd imagine the hardest part about actually doing this in reality is convincing the weakest member that they're gimp and should /cor for the benefit of the whole party, lol.

A clarification on the average Chaos Roll as /cor: it should actually average 13.2%, assuming you stay on unlucky 8. That's a guaranteed never-bust strategy. Determined the average from a spreadsheet that I built that calculates cumulative probabilities for every possible roll combo vs total bonus.

Average including rerolling on an 8 (and ignoring bust penalties) is only 13.4%, so there's absolutely no reason to risk it.

SAM is indeed less sub dependent than WAR DRG DRK, simply because it gets hasso naturally. well, if the WAR is voking it might need /NIN i guess (WARs can argue about that). regardless, since sTP won't shave off a hit (edit: for everyone, usually*) and ATT roll barely benefits you anyway, i don't think it's worth it.

i'm not really interested in crunching numbers though; you all can do that. i was criticizing--wait, i already said what i was criticizing. "but that's not even what the thread's about, wahhhh!" yeah no sh*t, that's why i was criticizing whining about group think in this thread.

Edited, Nov 17th 2009 5:44am by milich

you also have to take into account that most 2handers are too sheepish to fulltime hasso outside of a 3 support party. but if you have a 3 support party and one of them isn't COR, surely it would be better if 1 of the supports subbed COR. also, you're bound to be getting hasted in such a party + 2x march, in which case the haste is doing a ton for you.

i also think the question is kind of academic, because really if you're fighting birds you ought to be using polearm and subbing /WAR with low support, /DRG with tons of support. realistically, if you're any good and you're in a sort of thrown together party (where you'd /COR), your SAM/WAR polearm will probably end up doing an inordinate amount of the party's damage, meaning that the "how much damage do i lose compared to helping the rest of the party with /COR?" question gets all the more relevant.

whoa, i just got trolled. i got a surge of "i'm annoyed by this talk of 'YOUR DAMAGE ISN'T ALL THAT MATTERS!'" as if bringing up your damage implied that it was all that matters. wow. that sucks. oh well.

Ever notice that when people say this they never follow through?
I can't believe you actually read/responded to trolling PMs Milich, "mark as read" is there for a reason man. Plus it denies the rest of the world the opportunity to get mild entertainment off his BS.

Food doesn't get multiplied, so (assuming miths+13.2% inc+100 base+Gcolibri def)

100*(460/327 -0.35)=105.7
100*(512/327-.35)=121.6

15% increase to melee, aka a ~4.5% total increase to GK SAM, so if you have 3x GK SAM and 1x scythe DRK, the DRK can't be hurt more than ~13.5% if they want to at least break even (hasso alone being much more than that)
Ty, it wasn't clear from your previous statement. DRK roll is certainly more appealing than a worthless SAM roll, but if you have GK SAMs w/ that DRK (or if you don't have a DRK or if you can find a COR and/or if you can get gear/food/buffs/debuffs to get atk ratio to a reasonable amount) the atk boost is still not as good for overall group dmg as using a DD sub.

so to sum it up: if you're in a crappy party, with 4x crappy DDs, and crappy back line, and everyone is using multihit WS, and you have a DRK, and you don't have a COR, and you have a melee with /COR, and your back line refuses to /COR, and you can't get people to stop being retarded 1 melee/COR+DRK roll -might- do -slightly- better overall dmg (~3%). I completely concede that point to you sir.



/COR+SAM roll is still crap though, and the real answer is:




annnnnd back to CoD:MW2

Nothing, Sandmasterr. Like I said, just curiosity because we had said "should leave it to less SJ dependent jobs", and I figured SAM was that job.

It's silly, like you said. When I 1st asked, a couple of days ago, I had another intention. This last time was just because the 1st was unanswered.






If by this you mean "you're still posting", I wanna point that I did leave said discussion. The subject is different now. "Reading issues?" comes to mind now, eh?

Also, I found it hilarious you classified my PMs as "trolling" while suggesting you haven't read them. Very smart indeed, nice going.

Edited, Nov 18th 2009 5:13am by sbrubles

Would you clarify which fight I picked? Was I not having a reasonable conversation with you and Sandmasterr until Shintasama's post?

Yes it's true, I joined his fight while I could have simply ignored him (or gone jogging), but you're absolutely wrong in attributing the origin of this recent to me. Wouldn't you agree you're placing too much effort in blaming me for unproductive discussions that (given this last one) clearly was started by someone else?

Besides, if I had gone jogging, I wouldn't have answered to SM.

Edited, Nov 18th 2009 7:54am by sbrubles

i don't give a sh*t, and no i won't clarify. if i were your parent or getting paid, i'd write more, but i'm not.

Topic of summoning!

He has yet to break the latent for that. Gimp.

mikuru beam.

Edited, Nov 19th 2009 3:50pm by milich

You know this was a COR SJ, not main argument right? lol
Technically not true with GK/GA as the extra TP raises fTP for the WS (as does extra tp from "over" rolls). Also, this largely depends on how the SAMs are geared, for my build (49sTP), and doubling up on 6 or under (except lucky 2), you will always have enough sTP to drop a hit unless the COR busts (which depending on how much they're merited is a non-issue with fold). Your 2nd roll should probably be COR roll in most situations though.

Other situations are situational(duh)
napkin math estimations of highest worth follows):

w/ just gk SAM-> SAM+COR
w/ just p SAM-> DRK+COR
w/ DRK + gk SAM-> SAM+COR
w/ DRK + p SAM-> DRK+COR
w/ WAR + gk SAM-> SAM+COR
w/ WAR + p SAM-> DRK+WAR
etcetc

Edited, Jan 25th 2010 1:37pm by shintasama

mk, just checking

Alla would be a much calmer place if annoyed and/or butthurt posters would realise that getting the last word is actually less hurtful than ignoring someone.

Last time I got asked to /NIN I stopped casting shadows after ~15min, my dmg picked up considerably, and nobody noticed I was flipping between SETE/Hasso ~_~;