Help with elemental ninjutsu (ni/san) in AbysseaFollow

From a comment made here (or possibly on BG), in the back of my mind I was remembering ninjutsu nukes as being fairly decent in Abyssea. In a discussion with a friend today, was offering to let him help out on a Cirein kill later, as we got the pop for it tonight. He has nin as one of his mains, and I was wondering about the viability of him using it to nuke in this fight.

We picked up Minikin Monstrosity atma the other night, and got Baying Moon a while back, so he has the two main atma I'd think you'd want for this sort of thing, so I had him run in to do a quick test of the damage potential. He didn't gear for anything in particular (Moldavite left in mog house, etc), and wasn't using his staves. Results:

Ni: 234
San: 397

So, the numbers seem promising.

I ran out to do some quick tests on the damage formulas (my nin is 75, mostly unmerited), since I couldn't find anything on wiki or a quick search here. What I got (for ni) is:

+1 int = +1 damage
Since I was testing on level 0 mobs, and had a good +80 int over them and wasn't seeing the referenced inflection point noted on the wiki for basic nukes, I'll assume that that holds for the entire dInt range.

~~~

According to wiki:
V = base damage
M = dInt multiplier

Base V for :ni is 78
Base V for :san is 105
Base M for :ni is 1.0
Base M for :san is 1.5

M appears to be true for :ni (I don't have any :san to test), but V does not.


Nin/war vs lvl 0 mobs:
70 int: 133
74 int: 137
77 int: 140

Given the 1.0 M from the magic damage page, that shows that at 70+ dInt, it still hasn't reached an inflection point of reducing the value of additional int. Seems you can treat int as +1 base damage for all dInt.

The magic damage page says that :ni has a V of 78. If that's the case, dInt for the first test should be 55, indicating a level 0 mob has a 15 int. That seems highly unlikely, given that Burn can reduce the mob's int to 0 (or 1, at least). Level 0 mobs also shouldn't have an int higher than 10. Retesting as nin/blm with Burn (-9 int), which should reduce the mob's Int to no higher than 1:

+24 MAB from trait

76 int: 178 => 144
83 int: 187 => 151

Given 76 int vs Burned is 144, while 77 int vs non-Burned is 140, damage increased by the equivalent of 5 int. 5 int seems a likely value for the int of a level 0 mob, which would be the max amount the Burn could reduce (max for the spell would be -9).

Therefore the base V for :ni should be 68, not 78. I can't verify :san just yet (only 1 merit point on hand).

From my friend's test (and removing 30 MAB):
Ni: 234 => 180
San: 397 => 306

Given at least a 120 Int (base + MM atma), and the fact that M is 1.5 for san vs 1.0 for ni, about 60 of that can be attributed to the different int multiplier. That reduces the difference in damage to 66. To reduce to +36 would require another 60 int being present, which is highly unlikely (he wasn't geared for it). The V value for san needs to be verified.

Given this, I'm going to have to assume that V for san is incorrect as well. Until I can test this, will go with +60 on base damage, for 128.

~~~

Innin applies as a multiplier to total damage after staff multiplier is applied. So damage is: base * MAB * Staff * Innin.
Innin multiplier ranged from +30% immediately after use to +10% when it was just about to end.

~~~


Putting that all together, I came up with the following potential numbers:

Setup:

/rdm:
MAB2 - +24 MAB
Fast Cast 2 - 15% Fast Cast
Atma of the Minikin Monstrosity: 50 Int, +10 refresh
Atma of the Baying Moon: +30 MAB

HQ Staff (+15%)
Phantom Tathlum (+2 int)
Koga Head (+5% dmg) - Not sure where in the equation this applies; going to assume adds to Innin level
Lemegeton Medallion (+4 int) - can't use Ugg pendant because of atma refresh; may use Artemis Medal
Moldavite Earring (+5 MAB)
Morion's Earring +1 (+2 int)
Kirin's Osode (+10 int)
Dusk Gloves (3% haste)
Snow Ring (+5 int)
Snow Ring (+5 int)
Federal Army Mantle (+2 int)
Swift Belt (4% haste)
Byakko's Haidate (5% haste) - friend doesn't have Denali
Ninja Kyahan +1 (+6 int)

Int: +36 from gear, +20 from cruor buffs, +50 from atma, +106 total
MAB: +24 from sub, +5 from gear, +5 from merit, +30 from atma, +64 total
Haste: 12% from gear, 7.5% from Fast Cast, 19.5% total (34.5% with Haste, 56.5% with Marches)
Recast on San: 48 seconds innate, 39 seconds with Haste, 30 seconds with Marches


Not sure what base int for nin/rdm is at 85, going to assume ~75.


Ni base: 68 + 4 (merit) + (75 (base int) + 106 (add int) - 80 (mob int)) * 1.0 = 173
San base: 128 + 4 (merit) + (75 (base int) + 106 (add int) - 80 (mob int)) * 1.5 = 283

Assuming an even distribution of merits in both Tier 1 and Tier 2 (2 merits in 4, 1 merit in 2 for each category ninjutsu), and uses the higher damage ones for the numbers above (+4 to base damage, +5 MAB).

Damage: Base * MAB * Staff * Innin
Ni: 173 * 1.64 * 1.15 * (1.05, 1.15 ~ 1.35) = 341, 373 ~ 438
San: 283 * 1.64 * 1.15 * (1.05, 1.15 ~ 1.35) = 559, 612 ~ 719



Given sufficient haste, you should be able to clear one wheel cycle of each within the recast time of the san spells, more or less.

Assuming an average Innin bonus of 20%, that means something on the order of 405 per :Ni, 665 per :San. If you can maintain that for two full cycles (1 minute without pulling hate), that's 12,840 damage in 1 minute. Without the Innin bonus, it's 10,800 damage per minute.

Realistically, you're going to get resists, have mobs with MDB or higher Int, not always get the Innin bonus, pull hate if you're doing that much damage so have to do other stuff to interrupt the cycle, etc. Still, if you can manage even half of that damage, that's 5500-6000 damage per minute, which is the equivalent of a Blm doing 3 high tier nukes per minute for 1800-2000 damage each.

Overall, damage is between 100 and 200 DPS without any melee at all. Give about 8 TP per ~500 damage instead of 36, not counting weaponskills.


So questions:

1. Do the above numbers seem realistic?
2. Has anyone seriously tried this? If so, how well does it work?
3. Is Yagentoshiro + some other katana (no idea what else is available) a better combo than an NQ or HQ staff, given that you also have the option to melee? Lose out on a lot of magic accuracy, though... Maybe Sekka +1 with +14 m.acc, as those two together would come close to an NQ staff.



Edit: Yagentoshiro + Sekka +1 with Int/MAB would give a higher max damage than an HQ staff, but the lower m.acc probably makes it a poor tradeoff.

Edited, Nov 4th 2010 9:55am by Kinematics

Personally i'd use the following inplace of the stroked items, because i have BLM/SCH/RDM leveled so there is no space for meriting Ninjutsu skill.
1) Ninjutsu Torque
2) Ocean belt(Hume RSE) INT+4
3) Sangoma Lappa(INT+6)
4) AF2 feet: Skill+10

then again the mass amount of INT from the Atma and cruor buffs will probably nullify the need for skill+ items.

Edit: i recall Ni nukes doing more dmg before the last update when they supposedly buffed San nukes.

Edited, Nov 5th 2010 12:08am by Sequ

Kin,

I believe tier 1 merits can increase base D by +2 per merit. The wiki entry might be taking into account someone who did testing with full merits in one? IDK just trying to think why your numbers were they way they were.

Personally I think SE build the merits to be such that a NIN would pick one or two of the spells and max them out. I could imagine someone with 5/5 Hyoton effect and 5/5 Hyoton SAN would be able to do a pretty good nuke, especially if they uses Futuae with it.

I'm sure I'll sound dumb now, but why Hyoton instead of, say, Raiton?

Because I just pulled an element out of a$$. Actually Ice seems to be the safest element in general, few things we frequently fight resist it, most things are either neutral or weak to it. The best choice would be one dark-aligned element and one light-aligned element and they would preferably be back to back on the wheel so you could quickly cast both. Fire/Ice work that way, but I'm sure other combos / setups could be as valid.

Well I've always seen the San spells as a way to quickly deal a few hundred points of damage without consuming MP. If the first one lands the second will almost always hit for full damage provided the mob isn't resistant to that element.

From my (very) few tests, I have found that dual wielding MAB Sekka+1s gives the most damage, Sekka+1/Yagentoshiro comes next, followed by HQ staves doing the least amount of damage. Note that I ruled out nuking with HQ staves from some prior testing outside Abyssea and have since sold them, but HQ staff dmg is more than just 1 Sekka+1 but less than the Sekka+1/Yagentoshiro combo. Heres the numbers I have:

 
NIN85/RDM42 
 
Mob: IT Frigatebirds 
 
Atma: Minikin Monstrosity +50INT 
      Atma of the Beyond  +30MAB/+30Ice MAB 
       
Merits: 1 point into each san spell 
        4/5 Hyoton effect 
 
         
Tested alone so none of these numbers include Innin 
 
                   San   Ni  
Sekka+1/Sekka+1:   626   352 
 Ascetics Tonic:   706   399 
   Tonic+Hyoton:   936   533 
 
                   San   Ni 
Sekka+1/Yagent.:   608   347 
 Ascetics Tonic:   694   395 
 
                   San   Ni 
Sekka+1/**     :   574   327 
 Ascetics Tonic:   660   376 
 
----------------------------- 
        Blade:Yu   876  (Sekka+1/Sekka+1) 
  Tonic+Blade:Yu   1024 (Sekka+1/Sekka+1) 
 
**Any weapon w/o nuke dmg bonuses 

Heres my gear setup:
http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/1126/gear0.png
MAB Sekka+1/MAB Sekka+1
Phantom Tathlum
Yasha Jinpachi
Ninjutsu Torque
Moldavite Earring
Stealth Earring
Kirin's Osode
Marine Gloves
Snow Ring
Snow Ring
Federal Army Mantle
Ocean Rope
Sangoma Lappas
Denali Gamashes

My gear setup for Blade:Yu is some mashup of half melee gear and half nuking gear that I threw together.
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/4503/32882828.png


I've been nuking on ninja since for a while now (since around WoTG came out) and it works good situationally and it's really great in Abyssea. I've done a few manaburns with BLMs and SCHs where I'll tank and everyone just unloads nonstop. Just pop Yonin for extra hate and spam San nukes. After 2 nukes everyone can just start dropping their highest tier stuff and holding hate isn't a problem at all. With Ni spells, I'll only drop a few until my Sans are ready to go. Ni nukes just don't really cut it at all in Abyssea.

Regarding HQ staves: With the +50INT from Atma of the Minikin Monstrosity resists aren't that big of a deal. The only mobs I've had problems with are things where the BLMs are next to me nuking T4s for 150-200dmg; everything other than that is fine w/o the staves (and I doubt they would help in that situation anyway).

From my experience (past and now), the best way to go about deciding whether you should spam nukes or melee is if you're nukes don't land for ~80% of their full damage then it's usually just better to melee. Problem is if you aren't sure then you're stuck with mage atmas and meleeing is going to fail anyway. So it helps a TON to know ahead of time what mob you are going to be fighting and how much it will affect your nuke dmg.

Regarding Innin: If nukes land for most of their full damage then it probably isn't worth it to even bother with Innin since you will pull hate anyway. Nothing is worse than tanking mobs with Innin eva penalty.

I didn't do too much testing with Futae and this setup since I'm low on time and its a 3min recast, but I can tell you it is definitely awesome. (Sorry for the color choices):
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/1017/ss20101205005518.jpg

Can't wait for the update tomorrow!

Taru 75 nin/thf

Ninjutsu skill: 268

Test for M (variance based on Int) and S (variance based on skill)

Base int: 73

Ichi: 124
Ni: 232
San: 234

Add +10 int; total: 83

Ichi: 132
Ni: 249
San: 249


Add 5 skill (73 int, 273 skill)

Ichi: 124
Ni: 236
San: 234

Add 10 int and 5 skill (83 int, 273 skill)

Ichi: 132
Ni: 254
San: 249


* Skill does not affect Ichi or San spell damage.
* Skill adds to Ni spell damage at not quite a 1:1 rate. Possibly 5 skill ~= +2% damage

With base skill:
10 Int adds 8 damage to Ichi
10 Int adds 17 damage to Ni
10 Int adds 15 damage to San

San M remains at 1.5

With +5 skill:
10 Int adds 18 damage to Ni


Testing Ichi scaling:
+0 int: 124
+2 int: 126
+3 int: 126
+4 int: 128
+5 int: 128
+7 int: 130
+8 int: 132
+9 int: 132
+10 int: 132
+12 int: 132

Cap at 132?

+2 damage per +2 int (but not +1 per +1).
Cap at 73+8 vs int 5? (from previous test) mob, cap at +76 int?


Increment to 128 damage at 77 int. If mob int is 5, that means 72 dInt reaches 128 damage. V = 128-72 = 56.


San data:

234 @73
249 @83

dInt = 73 - 5 = 68
68 * 1.5 = 102
V = 234 - 102 = 132

V is the same as previously calculated


Ni data:

Previous V and M were 68 and 1.0

Expected damage with that would be:

68 dInt + 68 = 136
78 dInt + 68 = 146

Actual: 232 and 249 without the +5 skill, 236 and 254 with.

Ratio @268 skill:
73 int: 232/136 = 1.7059
83 int: 249/146 = 1.7055
Ratio @273 skill:
73 int: 236/136 = 1.7353
83 int: 254/146 = 1.7397

So skill appears to be a direct multiplier to damage, and V and M remain the same as before.

@268 skill, multiplier appears to be between 1 + 723/1024 and 1 + 729/1024
136 * (1+723/1024) = 232.0234375 >> 232 {match}
146 * (1+723/1024) = 249.083984375 >> 249 {match}

@273 skill, multiplier appears to be between 1 + 758/1024 and 1 + 760/1024
136 * (1+758/1024) = 236.671875 >> 236 {match}
146 * (1+758/1024) = 254.07421875 >> 254 {match}

5 skill has a value between 29 and 37. Possibly 6 or 7 per point of skill.
268 skill has a value of 1,747 to 1,753, between 6.519 and 6.541 per point of skill.
273 skill has a value of 1,782 to 1,784.

Some sort of base value must be in place.

7 * 268 = 1,876
7 seems a bit too high.

6 * 268 = 1,608
Additional base: 139 - 145

6 * 273 = 1,638
Additional base: 144 - 146

Probable factor: (145 + (skill * 6)) / 1024



Estimating vs Bummage's values (San only):
int: 78+134 = 212
MAB: 9+9+5 + 24 (/rdm) + 30 (atma) = 77
Add.Multiplier: 30% (atma)

V = 132 + 8 (merits)
dInt = ~130?
Base Dmg = 140 + 130 * 1.5 = 335
MAB dmg: 592
Add Dmg: 769

Observed: 626
Possibly not using Hyoton for these tests (thus not getting the bonus damage from Atma of the Beyond)? That would imply base damage of 354 and a dInt of 148 (mob int of 64). Slightly low mob int, but still within believable range.



Results:

Ichi
----
V = 56
M = 2 * floor(dInt/2), or 1.0 for simplicity; caps at +76
Not affected by skill


Ni
--
V = 68
M = 1.0
Affected by skill: Base damage multiplied by (145 + (skill * 6)) / 1024


San
---
V = 132
M = 1.5
Not affected by skill



Innin is multiplied after the above calculations (including skill, for Ni). +30% at start, decaying to +10% at end.


Edit: fix parentheses

Edited, Dec 7th 2010 1:53pm by Kinematics

Edited, Dec 7th 2010 1:54pm by Kinematics

Naked 90NIN/WAR 337 skill, 74 INT

San ninjutsu without extra merits
vs Huge Hornet outside of bastok
337 skill
315 dmg

+7 skill
322 dmg

+20 skill
338 dmg

San ninjutsu 5/5, and 3/5 effect
389 base

+7
398 dmg

+20
418 dmg

Hmm. I could see that. So most likely you need a minimum skill (or possibly level) to affect damage (eg: capped skill for 40 to affect Ni, capped skill at 75 to affect San), and it's 1.0 otherwise.

Actually, it can't be capped skill at 75 for San, since that would be 269, and my +5 skill from AF would push me over that. Unless it's base skill that has to be at cap or better, and I'm 1 point shy of that. Will have to play around with that more, later.

Working from that premise, there's probably a better formulation for the scaling. You want a 1.0 multiplier at the nominal skill level.

If scaling is 6/1024 per point of skill for Ni, that would be 121 skill points for my base test over 1.0. 268-121 = 147, cap for level 48. Would need to sync down to those levels to see where skill starts affecting damage.

Unfortunately that's slightly off for the 273 skill value. 273-147 = 126 * 6 = 756, which is 2 points below the necessary value. Pretty close, though.

After some quick testing after doing some skilling up on ninjutsu I noticed my Ni ninjutsu wasn't doing any more damage. Then went back to hornets and tested again and now I have capped damage+ from skill on Ni ninjutsu. While San ninjutsu continues to go up with skill.

Edit: which makes sense as Ni ninjutsu is better to use than San due to them being very close in damage but Ni has shorter cast and recast time. So San needs a boost to make it better.

Edited, Dec 11th 2010 10:10am by darkhorror

Unfortunately SE changed the stat progression formulas, and the stat calculator hasn't been updated for that, so those numbers aren't correct. It would take a massive amount of work to pin down the new progression, which I haven't done yet, and don't know of anyone else who has either.

Did some testing on Sand sweepers in Abys Altep


Atma's Used

Minkin
Ultimate
Hell's Gaurdian.


Relic head
Relic feet.
Jupiter's staff

2 Potency merits in Raiton

With Innin + Futae

Consistently doing

Raiton Ni: 1470
Raiton San: 1846


Didnt get to use an Asetic's Drink, since i didnt have one to use. lol


Hope That helps