Mandalic Stab and Shark BiteFollow

Yeah -- when someone just used/made Fragmentation.

Otherwise, I tend to get better returns off Shark Bite.

Reall? I tend to get much better returns with Mandillic Stab.

But that's because I tend to only use it on high level NMs, usually where I wont have attack buffs.

At that point I find it more reliable. Shark Bite's damage comes from the 20% higher WSC and an extra hit, which on high level NMs can often miss, putting you down to 20% WSC vs attack*1.66.

In my case that adds 20 base damage over Stab, but stab adds 264 attack (sushi) or 297 attack (pizza) with no other attack buffs. Concidering the majority of the time I'll use Stab/Bite will be on high level mobs with high defence, From experiance that 260-300 extra attack seems to do more than the 20 base damage.

The great thing about Mandalic Stab is that you can go /nin to HNM fights and still pull off decent numbers:
This is what I did yesterday as /nin on Odin (einherjar version):
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a372/Breaze/OdinVarjaSJ-ninlv-75.jpg

Pros:
1. Thanks to Mandalic Stab you can get away with /nin for HNM fights. Which gives better tp gain then /war. Even more so these days with the addition of mirke body with DW augment.
2. With the attack multiplier of Mandalic Stab you will hardly feel the need for berserk. Since berserk + attack food + attack multiplier of Mandalic Stab will often mean you are (nearly) capped on attack.
3. With /nin you gain an off-hand hit with all stats from that off-hand if you use dagger/dagger.
4. With Mandalic Stab you can get away with meat food. Instead of the impractical pizza (long duration, won't stack). Since you doing a 1 hit WS. I admit this has more to do with Mandalic Stab then with /nin. Although you could argue that /war won't benefit as much from meat then /nin.
5. And to top it all of you get shadows which will save you during some hairy situations like: Dark Ixion (Rampant Stance), Guivre sandworm version (when you have to ambush him), Ultima (Equalizer, Holy 2), Yilbegan (Dancing Tail), and some other situations which I can't think of right now.

Cons:
1. With /nin your ws damage will be a bit lower in some situations.
2. With /nin you won't get access to warcry. (I am really searching for cons here.)

Funny thing is I did this two weeks ago as /war:
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a372/Breaze/HNMdmg1-5-2010.jpg

I have to admit Odin is a wrong example. He eats buffs very often. Berserk is useless there. For odin thf/nin beats thf/war.

Disclaimer:
1. I am biased towards Mandalic Stab.
2. I will still use Shark Bite if the situation calls for it.
3. I am neither advocating thf/nin nor thf/war for all HNM fights. Use of a proper SJ is situational.

Edited, May 16th 2010 6:15pm by Breaze

Which can come from gear and/or food.

Got it in one.

What you said is because you're using a one-hit WS you can use meat as you don't need acc for it.

So yes, my comment about that ignoring your accuracy during TP phase is completely relevant.

I kow it's hard, but sometimes people really need to learn to say "My bad, you're right".

Yes there are more ways than just food to get accuracy.

There is:

Bard.
Corsair.
Gear.

Let's look at those:

Bard: If you get any bard songs they should be March x2. Anything else is a waste of a bard. If you have a 2nd bard, then you can justify Mad+Minuet. But let's be honest, what party gives a thief two bards on Odin? If you're in a linkshell that has enough support for 2 buffers in every DD party then you're failing anyway because you should have a cor.
For things outside merits (And for merits: only times when you can't get a cor) 2 bards in a party is a waste unless it's a 2brd+cor party or you don't have enough cors online.

Corsair: You can get Hunter's Roll. However, if you sort out your acc problems through better means you can use Chaos and Fighters, which are better in every way.

Gear: An eceptionally geared thief (We're talking: 8/8 Dagger, Acc Dakini + Blau + Bomblet + Anwig/Mirke + Homam Hands/Feet + Skadi Legs + Tore/Rajas Rings + Cuch Mantle + Swift or Velo Belt + Love torque) will not get above 380ish accuracy. For a mithra, that will be 54 Acc in gear, 103 Dex (=51 Acc) and 283 skill (=254) for 359 with vbelt.


Yeah, you aint close to capping sh*t without Madrigal or Hunter's Roll. And Adding hunters or madrigal gimps you out of getting a 2nd minuet or fighters/chaos roll.

You're right: You never said to ignore accuracy during the TP phase in so many words. You ignored it to advocate meat for your one-hit WS, whilst failing to mention it's effect on your TP phase, thus implying acc during your TP phase is unimportant. It's not what you said, it's what you didn't say.

Please go on though, I am interested in seeing you try to defend your "With Mandalic Stab you can get away with meat food" comment, which completely ignores your acc during the TP phase (Which won't benefit from meat. Hell you would be better with sushi @ 360 Acc without brd/cor's acc buffs, and that's if you have the best possible gear).

Yes, pizza is annoying on odin as he dispels sh*t regularly and it doesn't stack, however you can always fit them in satchel. And don't give me sh*t about "not enough inventory room". On thief I am 76/80. And that's befor all the other random sh*t you need. The following stuff is in satchel because I can't fit it in inventory whilst on thf: Acid/Bloody/Sleep Quivers, Kabobs, yellow curry buns, Crab Sushi, Bream Sushi, at least 2 Pizza+1s, KS and B Seals, Toolbags, Oils, Powders, Poison Fruits, Opo necklace, sleep potions, 2 warp cudgels, windy stables warp, jugner ring, nexus cape, tav ring, signet staff and hydra tights. That's 101 slots for thief. On both Red Mage and Bard I have to put Tonko/Monomi/Utsu tools and BS/KS seals in satchel as well because I can not fit them in inventory along with my rdm or brd gear (They hit 79 and 78 slots respectively)

I have a sh*t tonne of gear for all my jobs. I'm probably the only drg on Alla who has dedicated MDT and PDT sets.

And yet, if I was going to thief at odin and knew I was expected to DD I would bring a bunch of pizzas. They are not expensive.

If for some reason you can't afford the inv space (which for consumables, if I can then you certainly can) then you should still be using sushi because fighters or chaos roll is a bigger boost than a yellow curry bun, and thus: sushi+fighters+chaos > meat+hunters+Chaos.

Edited, May 18th 2010 9:43pm by Noodles

You know, for some strange reason I was doing 292*0.9 instead of 200+92*0.9.

And yes, I derped on not using hunters, on odin if you have a cor in your party you will be getting hunters as they will need it to land their hits.

Even so, I still take issue with "because Stab is a one-hit WS you can use meat". That's a stupid comment.

God I wish pizza gace Racc aswell :/

Stab is so great for all the situations on thf where you get tucked in a corner no one cares about.
It also has a damn nice animation, at least i enjoy it.

To me, it filled a gap in our WS. I give it all the use i can.