So where are we with Sub Jobs?Follow

I noticed my response to another thread was rated down because I mentioned I still prefer to use /SCH over /RDM. Especially since Abyssea renders refresh rates almost irrelevant. I prefer the overall bonuses from /SCH. I.e. the recast/casting time/reduced MP cost/conserve mp and boost to skill. Let alone celerity, which has saved my butt more than once or twice. I guess Fast Cast II balances out with light arts.

I have level 90 (must update sig) on RDM and WHM and will shortly have on BLM, SCH, SMN etc. Am I missing something? I don't have MP issues inside or out of Abyssea. Granted I have some of the best gear for WHM there is which helps a lot but I don't find myself ever wanting to sub RDM, even though its available to me. I have tried it, and I miss /SCH.

/RDM

Gravity
Sleep
Phalanx
Refresh
Dispel
Convert
Fast Cast II

/SCH

Light Arts :- Optimizes white magic capability while lowering black magic proficiency. Grants a bonus to divine, enhancing, enfeebling, and healing magic. Also grants access to Stratagems.
Penury
Celerity
Accession
Sleep
Dispel
Sublimation

I guess I really don't get why Light Arts doesn't beat anything else hands down. 10% cheaper spells all round... let alone boosted skills. And you can't argue with accession...

Why are you subbing RDM?

I don't really buy that. I don't know, I'd think you'd save more MP in the long term using /SCH with the constant cost reduction and the occasional Conserve MP/Penury Proc. And inside Abyssea (which is where we all seem to live) MP issues are irrelevant honestly. Ok, I'm sitting on three atma now but even with one... I found I didn't need a refresher for most things.

I don't get why peeps would want to drop the buffs to skills for example. I enfeeble/use barspells and the bonus from Light Arts really helps. It costs you nothing to use Sub (should you be unsupported) and yet 40MP to cast Refresh. 50 ticks of 3mp is 150MP? (Forgive me if I'm getting my numbers wrong, I'll happily be corrected). 110 MP over 2.5 mins. There is immediacy I guess of Convert but that also puts you in a pretty dangerous situation.

Sublimation isn't as good as refresh insofar as you can't rest with it up without a stoneskin, even though our autoregen it doesn't hit us hard in the HP stakes. At least now it will be noticably quicker to charge.

The way I see it is RDM is a perfectly viable sub for WHM, just not the best one and nothing I've seen or experienced so far changes my opinion on that. I guess I'm wondering if I'm missing something.

Are Elvaan and Galka really that MP deprived? I'm hume, not taru so I'm pretty well off on the MP stakes but I only have one piece of convert gear. With the efficiency you can achieve on cures right now, I don't think MP is really an issue anywhere is it?

I'm genuinely bemused.

Personally, I exclusively go WHM/SCH and don't really see the appeal of /RDM except for a handful of situations (mostly low-manning). I can count the number of times I have used RDM as a sub for WHM on one hand, and every time, I too wished I was /SCH. Inside (and generally outside as well) of Abyssea, MP is an non-issue. Yes, I am a taru, but I don't really gear for MP. Inside Abyssea, with MM and another 5/tic Refresh atma (or VV for Staff WS triggers) I can main heal with Cure V and VI with the only restriction being recast timers. I rarely spend MP to the point that I was wishing for Convert, and even if I were to run out, there are still spent of cruor meds to quickly (and safely) replenish MP. A decent Cure Potency set (I'm sitting at 44% without Light Obi equipped) really helps get the most out of a single Cure spell, which combined with Light Art's 10% MP/Cast/Recast Reduction really helps a WHM heal efficiently.

On Ragnarok, I notice a lot of WHM/BLMs running around (in parties, events, etc.) and I always wonder why. Outside of a few utility spells (Stun @90, Bind, Sleep, etc.), BLM doesn't offer much since Converse MP is also a SCH trait. RDM is a bit more respectable as a sub since its main utility spells (Gravity, Bind, Sleep, Dispel, etc.), combined with Fast Cast tiers, Convert, and Refresh are nice for low-man situations. However, /SCH is enough for me to personally since I can Accession + Stoneskin my party, plus all of the benefits listed by Eldelphia and Pergatory.

RDM is a decent option, and if someone feels more comfortable with it, to each his/her own. However, once the basics of /SCH are learned, it really does save a lot of MP in addition to boosting other aspects of WHM.

(P.S.: As a fellow WHM-enthusiast, I really enjoy reading your blog and seeing all the WHM (and other mage gear) you acquire Eldelphia. ^^ I have taken a lot of tips from your gear builds and receive a good deal of compliments on my WHM. Keep up the great work!)

Except with sublimation, you can (in a sense) gain mp even if your MP pool is full. Also, at 90+ /sch sublimation is 3 mp/tick. Idk if you included that in your calculation or not.

About the only time I use /rdm is when I solo, and even then it's just so I can put up phalanx (and sometimes Bio II) and not worry about keeping utsusemi up.

I think everyone gets that RDM is ok as a sub but you're missing out on a fair bit from /SCH. Accession is pretty amazing if you don't have Yagrush for example. The thing I really love about /SCH though is the boost to skill and the ability to celerity+raise mid fight without killing your tank.

I think /BLM is making a comeback because being able to sub Stun and have Warp/Warp II is bloody useful.

Edited, Dec 14th 2010 5:09am by eldelphia

Don't forget that it also depends on what you're fighting, and Aspirable targets... For the hell of it, I've used aspirga on groups of summoners and their avatars in dynamis after dumping as much mp as I could. I went back to full. Good times. Worms in Abyssea come to mind...

The only time that I regularly sub redmage is when I fight ovni. I gain a little fast cast, but the big (and only) reason why I do so it so I can dispel without having to worry about messing with arts.

While I agree that Stun is pretty useful, I don't agree with the passion with which this person vilifies the other subs. I see /BLM as situational again, whereas it had been pretty much obsolete since the introduction of /SCH. However, you pretty much need a BLM for 2/3 of the stuff in Abyssea anyway if you want to trigger yellow, so you should have stun covered on the most devastating of moves. WHM should never be the primary stun, because the time when stun should be cast is also very close to the time heals should be cast.

This person thinks they are only giving up a fraction of a second to their Cure casting by losing Light Arts, but it's more than that. If Stun comes a fraction of a second too late, the WHM will have to wait a couple seconds before they can start casting Cure. With MP being such a non-issue, and so much fast cast being available or even Quick Magic (which is freakin awesome), the best thing a WHM can do now is land big Cures immediately after a high-damage move is done. When I say immediately, I mean before the mob has a chance to take a single melee swing after its WS. After a devastating move, your Cure V should land before a single point of damage is dealt again. If you are busy trying to stun, that isn't going to happen. Leave stunning to the support mages, WHM has one job: keep people alive. There are times when Stun suits that goal, but it's far from universal like this person seems to think. Front-line jobs have so much HP now that WHM really shines, and this person doesn't seem to realize how much power all that extra HP and our unlimited MP really gives us.

Being able to "Curaga" and "Protectra" another party is also a great asset of /sch

Yep, I feel the same about /SCH. It's about a lot more than MP. Its about raising skills, fastcast/recast and conserve MP. Yes, I can see times where I may situationally sub BLM for Stun but I don't see that happening often. I didn't really like /SMN if I'm honest and did prefer /BLM for most things but now, don't you take my precious /SCH away!

/SCH offers so much more than /RDM... so what if /RDM nets you some more MP over the long run and ? Even if that's true, that still doesn't account for all the stuff which makes /SCH so useful:

- speed raise people with celerity
- 50% mp cost reduction with penury
- conserve mp trait
- sublimation keeps you from being slept (mostly)
- buff an outside party with Shell/Protect
- aspir can come in useful for extra mp
- dispel is available if it's absolutely needed
- not sure if this works, but I hear you can use sandstorm to negate double dark weather

/RDM gives you like... refresh, convert, gravity, fast cast 2, enspells (why not use afflatus misery + auspice)... is that it?

Because sometimes you don't need all those frills, and what you need is just sheer MP?

I don't know why people are having such a hard time understanding this. It's pretty much the same thing as the /BLM and /SMN debates from yesteryear. /BLM carries more utility; /SMN carries slightly more MP. Depending on what you need, you pick a sub. What's so damn hard to figure out here?




Because Auspice sucks as an "Enspell". Here, have an Enspell that works like an Enspell2 (only procs on first hit of a round) but doesn't even have the increasing dmg/hit aspect that makes Enspell2s worth using in the first place!

Note: If you ask most RDMs, Enspell2s are generally considered to be lolworthy even WITH their increasing dmg/hit.

Edited, Jan 4th 2011 10:31am by Fynlar

Nah, you don't have MP issues because

1) Abyssea gives you a sh*t ton of refresh
2) Anything not in Abyssea is too damned easy now

Honestly, you can go subless for most things nowadays and you'll still have no problems.

Still though, if you can't encounter ANY scenario where your MP doesn't get taxed, you haven't been in enough nasty scenarios.

Just a quick question since i don't have rescuer because i don't have heroes, does the rescuer atma count towards cure potency cap?

Actually I'm beginning to question that conclusion. I originally thought it was breaking the cap, but my latest calculations show otherwise. I have exactly 50% cure potency on the dot from equipment (Surya+2, Orison+2, Fylgja, Orison Earring, Facio +11, Orison Cape), but when I add Rescuer my Cure V remains exactly the same. If I then remove Orison Earring, it still remains the same.

This is weird because when I first got Rescuer, my cure potency was 3% lower (Orison Cap +1) and the Rescuer atma appeared to raise my potency from 47% to about 53%, suggesting that it's a 5% bonus compounded on the equipment potency and outside the equipment cap.

Since the latest testing I did... I'm not so sure I didn't mess up the math somehow originally. I think it warrants further testing.

That i can't agree with. I do abyssea in 5 man static. Me as WHM/BLM. Maybe it's just our tank is good enough to hold his own or we just mesh well, but I can stand there and wait for bosses/NMs to use abilities to stun it. Briareus, I can keep from using any major abilities without fail. I can't think of any NM /Boss we have failed to yet or where I have ran out MP.

I'm still a big fan of /BLM and I don't see myself changing anytime soon. I try to cater my gear towards Conserve MP where I can. Granted I will admit I don't have a fully lvl'd SCH sub to play with but I just tend to find myself being old school and hard to change.

I can't think of any modern situation where your MP would be taxed to the point where Convert is necessary and desirable. I run a linkshell where we do virtually everything in small groups, including Dynamis, and /SCH is blatantly superior there as much as it is in nearly all Abyssea situations.

Doing Xarcabard at 85 for Shadow gear, we would go with ~5 melee, 2 BLM, 2 WHM, and a THF. The other White Mage in our group chose to /RDM for Dynamis all the time. She was CONSTANTLY out of MP and forced to Convert while I was sitting on a solid MP pool and two Stratagems. Not having access to weather meant that her Cures suffered from potency loss, which can create other problems besides just costing more MP for the same amount of HP Cured; Aspirga during many pulls meant a free MP pool, compared to the cost of Converting. This amongst myriad other issues that seem to accompany any White Mage that I've seen /RDM.

Admittedly, Dynamis is easymode these days, and we do cities with 5 or 6 people now so this might not be a great example, but if it isn't then what is? If MP isn't an issue in Abyssea, and it's been illustrated that it's not an issue outside of Abyssea, then when is /RDM beneficial?

Put simply, it's not. The only time /RDM should ever be considered is in situations where you need Dispel constantly or must Refresh another player and don't have a Red Mage available.

Also, as a quick note, Atma of the Rescuer definitely does count as gear Potency, but it offers the ability to do some interesting things with your gear. With Rescuer, you can finish casting in big chunks of Mind (I substituted Marduk's Jubbah in for Aristocrat's) or bits of -Enmity that you might not have been able to before.

At the same time, /SCH gains a lot of ground on solitary strong NMs via stronger enfeebs & stronger barspells (and possibly stronger Auspice depending on how skill affects it). This is especially significant if you haven't re-capped your skills since reaching Lv90.

I'll be honest, I've never once done an AOE Aspir on /SCH. I don't really see it as being one of the reasons to sub SCH. If you can find a situation to use it, awesome, I bet it's great, but it's not a staple of the job. It's a gimmick. The main reason I've never done it before is because any situation where I could potentially do it, I am never low on MP. Partially probably because Dynamis is one of the few rare times in FFXI where I do actually use WHM/RDM. MP spending happens in fits in Dynamis... you can go 30 minutes without spending any significant MP and then suddenly need 3000 MP within the span of 5 minutes. I've found that /RDM handles those sorts of spike demands better, especially when I don't have any ballads or anything like that to keep my MP up.

Honestly though, as I add more and more refresh to my idle gear on WHM, it's seeming less and less likely I'll ever sub RDM again...

This is pretty much exactly how I find playing WHM in general nowadays. Not just in Dynamis (I don't even do Dynamis)

Have not posted in a while, don;t get on here much anymore.

Anywho, personally for me, i perfer /Sch. For things like campaign, its /Rdm all the way, as Phalanx is useful when soloing the mobs in there, and gives you a better defense than anything /Sch can give you. Or when Buffing NPCs, refresh, regen 4, blow through 1k Mp, convert, do it again.

For Abyssea, which i have not done all that much of, And Dyna, i prefer /Sch however.

I still don't have any Atma activated, i have a few, but again, i have not done all that much abyssea, kinda went away for a few months.
But for Dyna, i am Definatly enjoying Stoneskinga, and Regen3ga, and the occasional, suicidal Aspirga. Accession and the Dark version (i forget the name XD) are both a nice tool to all to a Whm.

I tend to be in melee parties, where as was said above, i go in fits with MP. Sometimes i'll sit there for 15 mins and only throw out a curaga every few mins, while other times i'll be sitting in double digits. Having sublimation sitting there, as well as AoE Aspir as an Option, are Quite Nice. Yes refresh and Convert would both be options, but i also like that my Enh and Enf skills are boosted. They give me Stoneskinga, and my Enfeebles all that much more power.

I think its a personal Opinion, If you wanna go /Sch or /Rdm its up to your playstyle. If you have a Rdm in your party, subbing Rdm yourself if somewhat less needed. But if you are solo, if you feel better with /Sch, go for it, if you like /Rdm better, hey, whatever makes you happy :D

It takes more than a day or two generally to level a sub. You could leech your way through in a day or two with the help of some friends, but actually keeping semi-up-to-date equipment and leveling "the right way" still takes time. You're absolutely right though, any serious WHM should, at the very least, have SCH, RDM, and BLM subs leveled. All three have their uses.

I'd also agree that it seems like most people who argue for /RDM or /BLM being equal to /SCH do not have /SCH leveled. While all three look close on paper, making it seem like a utility versus efficiency trade-off, every WHM I've talked to who has honestly used all three subs agrees that WHM/SCH works much better in practice than it does on paper, while WHM/RDM actually works worse in practice than on paper.

Over the years, I've found many uses for ES+Sleepga, personally. It's nowhere near as restricted in use as a BLM main having /BRD for grellows (although honestly nowadays, they really should have it)

I'm less tolerant of unleveled subs now than I ever was before, because low levels are just so damned easy now.

Repose can't be AoE'd and doesn't have multiple tiers, so no, it isn't "fine" for the scenarios I'm thinking of.

Also, it's worth noting that "low-man situations" are pretty much the only sort of valid situations in the game anymore. Now, more than ever, you can't just always expect someone else to cover this base for you if it's needed.

One thing I will give to /SCH's credit nowadays on the sleeping front, though -- now that we're past 80, Manifestation is subbable, which allows WHM/SCH to "Sleepga". I still don't like how it requires you to switch arts and blow all 2 of your 2 available stratagem charges to use it, though...



Sleep is too cumbersome to use as /SCH for it to count, really.

Edited, Jun 21st 2011 12:22am by Fynlar

Idk what NM fight this was, but in most cases I would advise not using Allure. If you're abusing Cure 5/6 like you should be, hate is almost never a concern unless the mob does a hate reset, and even then in most cases you can get hate back with as little as a Provoke. This has been my experience, and I never use Allure.

*Ding Ding* we have a winner.

Alure is +30% MP +30MND -30 Enmity

The -enmity I couldn't care less about. The MND is pretty nice but not instrumental, the +MP is godly. Reaching 2K/2K or rather a perfect 1:1 ratio is importent and alure lets me do that with crour buffs. With MM, self-refresh and a 1mp/tick body I'm already sitting at 14mp/tick, another 5 isn't going to make much different when I'm blowing through the MP pool like that. In those situations it's about how long can you sustain cure bombing people when the boss starts throwing down Gates of Hades, Archeon Flame, or various other OMGWTF moves.

Typically I'm in one of two situations.
#1 I'm WAR/NIN or BLU/NIN and I'm using my WHM as cure support for low manning seals and what not. I tend to take hate easily and just face tank most NM's until we proced what we needed to proc.

#2 I'm with the shell and we're fighting a super NM for body +2 items, or Lv 90 emp weapon items. Occasionally doing some other crazy thing. For stuff like +2 farming or lv85 Emp weapons, honestly it doesn't matter what my healers sub is, we just blow through those things so easily.

So as you can see I'm rarely having to do long-term endurance healing, mostly its just short-term cure bomb sprinting. This is the big reason I /RDM most of the time, being able to convert and instantly having another 2K MP has been critical more times then I can count. This includes temp item spamming. If I had to do a long-term MP burn then I'd be /SCH, especially if there was a form of refresh nearby.

Apoc is a no brainer when we step out of the world of theory and into what happens. Always on auto-reraise is a godsend for any healer, no more "it got dispelled" or having it drop in the middle of a dangerous fight. Most if not all of the dangerous NM's use dispellga and you will get him by it. Many NM's have various dispel moves, those can eat your RR. That coupled with high damage aoe's means there is a decent chance of your death occurring, being able to raise up, even if in a weakened state can save a fight gone bad. Then you have a 10~15% (haven't seen it confirmed on either way yet) chance of insta-casting any spell, including the much spammed cure V with no recast. From a strategic point of view, Apoc is a must for all healers and tanks, and highly recommended for all melee's.

I use Alure because its +30% MP pure and simple. That combined with crour buffs allow's my healer to get 2K/2K, a perfect convert ratio. As a RDM I can't overstate how important having a perfect convert ratio is to the usefulness of convert. Having less MP means wasted potential, and when your throwing out that much MP it's really worth it.

As for the fights, maybe people are unfamiliar with how we deal with things. We're not a (MNK + WHM) group we're not a low-man group. We try to bring at least 18 people on each run, if we have more they form a side party or are used to swap out with others when they have to go. When we kill NM's we don't just do "one or two", we do 15~18 if not more and we try to do the fight as fast as possible. We have to get emp weapons for every single member of our shell along full +2 on their main / second jobs, that equals alot of fighting and we've been pretty successful. I'll use one of our runs for example, last week we did 18+ Apademak's for one of our Almace users. We don't like wasting brews on NM's that we can fight regularly, thus we straight fight Apademak. IDK if you've ever fought him but e's fcking crazy. We need to bang out 75 horns or 40 ~ 50 fights per Almace user, we have six Almace user's with a few more left. At the same time we would like to proc Yellow for the +2 items. Lots of firepower is brought to this fight, we have Ukko's Furry going off from two of our WAR's, CDC and HI's being fired off, and our RNG is throwing down Jishnu's Radiance from on top the ledge. With this many melee's and this much firepower involved, the healing requirements are astronomical. We bring three WHM's minimum, and sometimes four (if that's how the numbers work for the night), their cure bombing everyone and removing status ailments at break neck pace as the BLM's rotate stuns while trying to proc Yellow.

This is slightly different from a MNK / NIN / THF / DNC slowly plinking something to death while a WHM stands back and keeps them alive for 20 min while the procers just sit back (to avoid TP spam). Yeah its different but this method turns out a ton of loot for everyone and it's been working so far (26 weapons gained so far).