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#1 Jan 14 2013 at 7:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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...That you all just played a game without hearing all the rage.

I didn't get a chance to play ffxiv because my computer just wasnt good enough. I'm in the process of building a new one and the only game I really really want to play is ffxiv. I jumped into ffxi with 0 expectations about 9 years ago and ready to do the same with ffxiv. I think the biggest problem with games today is people are always putting a game down before they even get their hands on it. Everyone always has to compare a game to another one and not even play the game as the developers intended it. Now I did hear that SE royally F'd up last time around but I'm pumped to see what they have in store for us.
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#2 Jan 14 2013 at 8:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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People let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
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Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#3 Jan 14 2013 at 8:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Klibe wrote:
...That you all just played a game without hearing all the rage. ... I jumped into ffxi with 0 expectations about 9 years ago and ready to do the same with ffxiv. I think the biggest problem with games today is people are always putting a game down before they even get their hands on it. Everyone always has to compare a game to another one and not even play the game as the developers intended it. Now I did hear that SE royally F'd up last time around but I'm pumped to see what they have in store for us.


So, when's the last time you had to book an appointment with a new dentist, and despite having a list of online reviews that pointed out the good from the bad, you thought to yourself, "Surprise me!" and just picked one at random instead?

Now, I've liked my share of games that most people hated, and I've thought some games most people liked were highly overrated, but far more often than not, the impressions stated in critical reviews don't stray far from mine. It's what makes them valuable, especially so you don't end up dropping $60 on a waste-of-time.

The good thing about the crap FFXIV has taken is now it's possibly on the verge of being something people could actually enjoy playing for a long time. If we all just smiled and said, "Yay! Final Fantasy is perfect!" and then quietly left without griping for a moment, the game would have failed by now and they'd have no idea why.
#4 Jan 14 2013 at 9:33 PM Rating: Decent
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good points xoie I totally agree. Just gotta remember most people today haven't tried XI and most online reviews gave it terrible reviews. I think I'm gonna go in blindly and see what happens this time.
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#5 Jan 14 2013 at 10:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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To be fair, you playing it now would have you wondering along the lines of "why did everyone think it was so bad?" You'll be playing after they did the overhauls.

Back when FFXI came out, I had no idea what an MMO was, I jumped in with no expectation and I got hooked. You would think FFXIV would take what worked from FFXI and expand on that, right?

Wrong.

It seems that half of FFXIV's design was to hinder the player or to combat RMT rather than focus on making it fun. Convoluted market systems, fatigue to prevent the player from reaching cap, no quests, no sense of exploration, everything being soloable and offering no real challenge. There was more that I can't think of off the top of my head.

---

Needless to say the people involved with 1.0's design were either fired or demoted and the new team worked their *** off to get around 1.0's limitations to come up with something better. I'm fairly optimistic with where it's going, but in today's day and age there's a lot of MMO competition and the MMO crowd is a very fickle one.

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#6 Jan 15 2013 at 1:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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To answer the question, a lot of the Android apps I play without really reading too many of the reviews.

But that's because the user reviews are basically worthless and the games are, for the most part, free.

Now when I know I'm going to be playing a game for a while, or conversely, I'm going to spend upwards of $50 plus a monthly fee, I don't want to take too many chances/waste my time and money.

Usually MMOs (at release) get pretty average scores in general, and I'll most likely play FFXIV if it gets anything more than a 6 (on a 0-10 scale).

I too, got into FFXI without knowing too much about it. But it was predicated on the history of the Final Fantasy series til that point, which was pretty decent. These last 8 or so years have been shaky for SE, to say the least, and the releases of both XIII and XIV didn't really do anything to help FF's reputation IMO.

So I'm looking at ARR with both a cautious yet optimistic eye. And I'm still blinded by my love of the series so I'd be MORE likely to play it than say other games, or if it got a lower score, but I still have my limits. Like if it got a 3.5, I'll be taking my money elsewhere...I hope...unless they threw in a stuffed chocobo or something...

#7 Jan 15 2013 at 1:49 AM Rating: Good
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I saw that you can fight on chocobos now and thats 2 months worth of fun right there.
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#8 Jan 15 2013 at 10:13 AM Rating: Decent
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The problem isn't that people are putting down FFXIV.

The problem is no one is even bothering to talk about FFXIV.

People let playable be the enemy of unplayable at release, and completely gave up.
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#9 Jan 15 2013 at 11:52 AM Rating: Decent
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To compare the times of XI to the times of XIV is unfair and biased. When XI came MMO'S where not a fraction of what they are today, they where games that the most hardcore and nerdy/ no lifers (That was the impression given at the time of people that played them.) only played, MMORPG'S where in their infancy back then, the media of gaming was not what it is today, it was mostly magazines and stuff back then, now we got youtube, and 500 billion sites and reviews.

Since this is a FFXIV forum i am assuming you are talking about how people put down FFXIV ? Well guess what ? We where Right! There is no if 's or but's or anything WE WHERE RIGHT! The game was not put down or beat to a pulp by reviews and fans because it was a masterpiece, the game got the reviews it got because it deserved them. Period.
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#10 Jan 15 2013 at 11:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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No one is arguing that 1.0 didn't deserve the bad reputation it so rightfully earned (except Tanaka and the 1.0 dev team.) But 1.23c or whatever the version number it was when it ended was actually a decently enjoyable game. It wasn't polished or great but it was slightly more playable and had enough meat to the story to be a little fun finally.

We're arguing that the complaints about 2.0 are so far unrealistic. MMOs fall into the same realm as government rule:
1. You can please all the people some of the time
2. You can please some of the people all the time
3. You cannot please all the people all the time

A successful MMO is one that hits both 1 and 2, not one that strives to violate rule 3. And yet, players go into MMOs expecting to be wowed with #3 violations from the beginning. When they're not satisfied with something, but other people are, they get irritated because of the imperfections they perceive in the game, and eventually start hating and disparaging the game itself because it was not magically perfect and pleasing to them 100% of the time.

That's what we're griping about - people are whining that a game that isn't even in beta yet isn't miraculously perfect in every way.

I'll be content if the game is good. It doesn't have to be perfect, just fun and good.
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Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#11 Jan 15 2013 at 12:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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I was definitely on the critical side of 1.0, and took all the crap that came with that...

"It's only alpha.."
"It's only beta.."
"It just launched, give it time.."
"It's only the first three months, give it time.."

2.0 isn't shaping up to have the same problems. Which means, thank you, they learned from their past mistakes. Now, in the interest of fair play, we need to give them a chance to redeem themselves.

It's ok to look at 2.0 critically, that's fine. It's not ok to prejudge 2.0 based on a handful of alpha videos. We have to play it ourselves before we can put forth anything like a valid opinion on the subject.

Edited, Jan 15th 2013 12:07pm by Callinon
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#12 Jan 15 2013 at 12:38 PM Rating: Decent
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1.23v Was a decent game only if you played FFXIV on release, if you where a person who never touched or heard about FFXIV failure and jumped into the game, it was horrendous, was it a decent game if compared to WOW, Rift, Swotor, GW2 ? No not at all, is not even on the same LEAGUE! But if you went thru all the changes SE made to the game from release up until it went offline, you can certainly see that they have put work into the game, that is not the same disaster as it was, but if you din't you would be looking at a game, that has no identity.

As for 2.0 well that is hard to say, because GAMEPLAY >>> Pretty Graphics, we have yet to see the end result of the gameplay overhaul, the battle system is yet going another overhaul, what # is this already ? Fourth ? Fifth time is being overhauled in 2 Years ? The game looks pretty, **** 1.0 Look better than most MMO out there, and it still dint save it, we have seen very very little of the meat in 2.0 from Alpha, we have seen the most basic stuff as far as combat is related too, in alpha, so to say the game will succeed or fail based on that is a Stretch.

I am of the opinion that SE needs to be a whole lot more open, look at GW2 in it's development stage, it's fanbase was getting videos, interviews, gameplay mechanics, classes all the way up until release, SE has been more of "Gives us your money and we will surprise you" Which considering what went down in 1.0 is a bad card to play, the only people who even talk about FFXIV are the current players and those who have been waiting on the fence since 1.0. That in my opinion is bad.
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#13 Jan 15 2013 at 12:54 PM Rating: Good
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Well consider what happened the last time people paid attention to FFXIV.

SE has a monumental task ahead of them if they're going to redeem themselves on this score. It might actually be impossible. I do however, think it would be a bad idea for them to be super open and forthright about 2.0's progress if they don't have something to show people.

What I'd like to see, personally, is some high level content executed by people that know what they're doing. Show me what I can look forward to in FFXIV.

Currently we've gotten alpha videos of some of the most lethargic gameplay I've ever seen in an mmo. If that's the best they can do with the alpha build, it's better for them not to make a huge deal of it just right now.
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#14 Jan 15 2013 at 1:15 PM Rating: Decent
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When I get stuck in a slump from gaming, I play stupid "hidden object" games online. So anytime I play those, I never look at reviews or find the one thats "all the rage"
#15 Jan 15 2013 at 3:00 PM Rating: Decent
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XIV was horribly under developed but that's unfortunate circumstances..also here's a perfect example of what's wrong with MMOs today:

Archmage Callinon wrote:
Currently we've gotten alpha videos of some of the most lethargic gameplay I've ever seen in an mmo. If that's the best they can do with the alpha build, it's better for them not to make a huge deal of it just right now.


The genre now has to be:

1. Fast Paced twitch battle systems.
2. Platformers.

Or it's not deemed "good"

Edited, Jan 15th 2013 1:00pm by Theonehio
#16 Jan 15 2013 at 3:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
1.23v Was a decent game only if you played FFXIV on release, if you where a person who never touched or heard about FFXIV failure and jumped into the game, it was horrendous, was it a decent game if compared to WOW, Rift, Swotor, GW2 ? No not at all, is not even on the same LEAGUE! But if you went thru all the changes SE made to the game from release up until it went offline, you can certainly see that they have put work into the game, that is not the same disaster as it was, but if you din't you would be looking at a game, that has no identity.


I didn't start playing XIV until May 2012. So your argument is invalid here.
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I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#17 Jan 15 2013 at 3:16 PM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
Ostia wrote:
1.23v Was a decent game only if you played FFXIV on release, if you where a person who never touched or heard about FFXIV failure and jumped into the game, it was horrendous, was it a decent game if compared to WOW, Rift, Swotor, GW2 ? No not at all, is not even on the same LEAGUE! But if you went thru all the changes SE made to the game from release up until it went offline, you can certainly see that they have put work into the game, that is not the same disaster as it was, but if you din't you would be looking at a game, that has no identity.


I didn't start playing XIV until May 2012. So your argument is invalid here.


It's Ostia, and talking about a Square Enix game, don't take him seriously with arguments like that.
#18 Jan 15 2013 at 3:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
The genre now has to be:

1. Fast Paced twitch battle systems.
2. Platformers.

Or it's not deemed "good"


You're only partially right here. There's room for slower-paced MMOs. But I'll tell you that current MMO players will tend to reject that out of hand, and SE needs at least SOME of those people to give them some money in order for this entire exercise not to be a complete waste of time and capital.

I'll tell you that I played FFXI for 4 years and loved it. Before that I played The Realm which is f'ing turn-based. It isn't absolutely required for a game to be super twitchy like, say, Tera. But the first thing I noticed in one of the alpha combat videos was what looked like a 4 second global cooldown on abilities which seems like about 3x too long to me and made the combat seem much slower as a result. This may not actually be a thing, I can't say for certain because I haven't played the game (obviously), and I don't prejudge games one way or the other. I form my opinions based on actually playing the game.

If it's slow but fun, cool. If it's fast and not fun, not cool. There's no litmus test here; the game is fun or not based on its own merits, not based on how quickly it handles its combat.
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#19 Jan 15 2013 at 4:13 PM Rating: Default
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catwho wrote:
Ostia wrote:
1.23v Was a decent game only if you played FFXIV on release, if you where a person who never touched or heard about FFXIV failure and jumped into the game, it was horrendous, was it a decent game if compared to WOW, Rift, Swotor, GW2 ? No not at all, is not even on the same LEAGUE! But if you went thru all the changes SE made to the game from release up until it went offline, you can certainly see that they have put work into the game, that is not the same disaster as it was, but if you din't you would be looking at a game, that has no identity.


I didn't start playing XIV until May 2012. So your argument is invalid here.


Did you play WOW/Rift/Swotor/GW2 ?
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#20 Jan 15 2013 at 5:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
catwho wrote:
Ostia wrote:
1.23v Was a decent game only if you played FFXIV on release, if you where a person who never touched or heard about FFXIV failure and jumped into the game, it was horrendous, was it a decent game if compared to WOW, Rift, Swotor, GW2 ? No not at all, is not even on the same LEAGUE! But if you went thru all the changes SE made to the game from release up until it went offline, you can certainly see that they have put work into the game, that is not the same disaster as it was, but if you din't you would be looking at a game, that has no identity.


I didn't start playing XIV until May 2012. So your argument is invalid here.


Did you play WOW/Rift/Swotor/GW2 ?


What's this have to do with anything perchance? WoW is an old MMO (just as old as XI almost, only 2 years younger.) Rift is a flatout clone of WoW and people left it in droves. SWTOR flopped. GW2 is bleeding and they're making the usual idiotic changes based around the player which will cause more people to leave it.

The only game in that which has identity as I'm sure you're trying to get at is SWTOR because its star wars, the rest is generic RPGs. XIV had no identity because Wada rushed the game out and they made the mistake of not taking FFXI and building on it much like they did with every other FF game. So she is correct, she may or may not have enjoyed it because that's her experience, you don't have to had played at launch in order to enjoy XIV (or not) after all the changes..it's quite possible just because YOU DISLIKED something doesn't mean it's true for EVERYONE.

THAT mentality is what's killing this genre ontop of the mentality that every MMO has to basically be the same...also sometimes called "meeting the global standard."



#21 Jan 15 2013 at 7:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Couldn't get into WoW. Looked at most of the modern MMOs and went "meh." I looked at 1.0 and went "meh" as well - but Lahurah, who was at the time my room mate, played it even during its broken days, and what the ****, she actually enjoyed it even though we had to upgrade her Square Enix build Goddess Box to even play it. She even managed to get her parents into 1.0 for a while there.

I picked it up in May 2012 because State Alchemist was unable to make ACEN, which left me short handed and with no knowledge of XIV of my own. Rather than deal with that failure again this year, I vowed to play it a bit.

By the time I started playing, at 1.22 or whichever version that was, I was surprised and upset at myself for not giving it a try sooner. The engine was still awful, but the gameplay itself was fun, and the storylines were really interesting. By the time the servers went down, I was a 42 THM and had joined the Limsa Lominsa grand companies and finished out a good chunk of the initial main storyline.
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Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest on Lamia - Member of The Swarm and leader of Grammarian Tea House chat LS
#22 Jan 15 2013 at 7:48 PM Rating: Good
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Theonehio wrote:
XIV was horribly under developed but that's unfortunate circumstances..also here's a perfect example of what's wrong with MMOs today:

Archmage Callinon wrote:
Currently we've gotten alpha videos of some of the most lethargic gameplay I've ever seen in an mmo. If that's the best they can do with the alpha build, it's better for them not to make a huge deal of it just right now.


The genre now has to be:

1. Fast Paced twitch battle systems.
2. Platformers.

Or it's not deemed "good"

Edited, Jan 15th 2013 1:00pm by Theonehio


There's plenty of room for a strategic game on the MMO market. The problem is that you can't just SHOW strategic gameplay without explaining it, and expect people to marvel at your exciting chess-like combat. Any strategy game that hits the market these days knows how to brand it as one... the problem is that FFXIV still doesn't seem to know what the challenge is supposed to be, and as a result, neither does the fanbase. Why do I care that I can kill a dragon if all that's required is for me to push the "Kill Dragon" button over and over and hope for the best?
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

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Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#23 Jan 15 2013 at 9:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Theonehio wrote:
Ostia wrote:
catwho wrote:
Ostia wrote:
1.23v Was a decent game only if you played FFXIV on release, if you where a person who never touched or heard about FFXIV failure and jumped into the game, it was horrendous, was it a decent game if compared to WOW, Rift, Swotor, GW2 ? No not at all, is not even on the same LEAGUE! But if you went thru all the changes SE made to the game from release up until it went offline, you can certainly see that they have put work into the game, that is not the same disaster as it was, but if you din't you would be looking at a game, that has no identity.


I didn't start playing XIV until May 2012. So your argument is invalid here.


Did you play WOW/Rift/Swotor/GW2 ?


What's this have to do with anything perchance? WoW is an old MMO (just as old as XI almost, only 2 years younger.) Rift is a flatout clone of WoW and people left it in droves. SWTOR flopped. GW2 is bleeding and they're making the usual idiotic changes based around the player which will cause more people to leave it.

The only game in that which has identity as I'm sure you're trying to get at is SWTOR because its star wars, the rest is generic RPGs. XIV had no identity because Wada rushed the game out and they made the mistake of not taking FFXI and building on it much like they did with every other FF game. So she is correct, she may or may not have enjoyed it because that's her experience, you don't have to had played at launch in order to enjoy XIV (or not) after all the changes..it's quite possible just because YOU DISLIKED something doesn't mean it's true for EVERYONE.

THAT mentality is what's killing this genre ontop of the mentality that every MMO has to basically be the same...also sometimes called "meeting the global standard."



See i understand that you are a fanboy, but you are irrelevant to the discussion, as are all of those that played in 1.0(Myself included) First off rift has hovered around 1-2 million subs, kinda hard to call that a flop, it is 4 times as much as XI ever did, and at max XIV did 50K before it dipped below 20K for a long time, so in essence did Rift reach WOW ? Not at all, but it dint crash and burn either, Neither has GW2, please do provide the proof that GW2 is dying or bleeding :) Also! Swotor did flop to an extent, did it reach wow ? Nope, did it sell more than 3million copies in a month ? Yes, did it retain 1.8mil for the first 3 months, and started bleeding then. Swotor is not going to lose money, it has already made well over half it's developing cost back and once it goes free to play it will keep earning money :)

Now that we got that out of the way, you do understand that the fanbase that currently supports FFXIV is irrelevant ? The game cannot sustain itself on the users that it already has, it has to reach out for the casuals, now exactly what % of the casuals it needs is debatable, but it does need them in order for it to survive, that is a Fact! Now if we observe those games that we have mentioned, their biggest flaw is lack of "End Game Content" swotor for example once you reached max level, all you had to do was do dungeons or pvp, the raids it had where very lacking if we compare them to WOW(Sorry but wow is the standard) that was the case for rift also, and to some extend to GW2.

There will always be people that will like FFXI and its oldschool MMO gameplay, but sadly that number of people is a whole lot lower % than those that enjoy what has become the "Standard" in MMO. Oh and what i meant by "Did you play rift/swotor/wow etc" is that most people that do not enjoy games like those, enjoy games like FFXI, and those that enjoy games like those, more often than not, will see games like FFXI/XIV like some backwater behind the times game. What more proof do you need ? The game was free to play for way over a year... yet it never reached 50K players.

SE needs to appeal to the masses, while retaining it's own fanbase, which will be tricky, and i am more than excited to see how will they pull it off, but they do need to showcase their gameplay more, i dont care about graphics :)
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#24 Jan 15 2013 at 11:26 PM Rating: Good
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It doesn't have to pull from just the casuals. It also has the entire Final Fantasy fan base to pull from. There are folks that played XI but then stopped, folks that skipped XI entirely but are interested in XIV, and folks like me that played XI and XIV concurrently for a while and are chomping at the bit.

The FF fans are the ones that SE really has to hook, not just casual MMOers. The casuals will jump to the next shiny that a game company releases in six months regardless. The FF fans will play XIV until XV or the next flavor of XIII comes out, assuming 2.0 doesn't suck monkey balls.
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Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest on Lamia - Member of The Swarm and leader of Grammarian Tea House chat LS
#25 Jan 15 2013 at 11:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Unfortunately, the Final Fantasy fanbase is in a much more jaded condition than they were were XI hit the market.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#26 Jan 16 2013 at 6:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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It also as a much wider age range.
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Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest on Lamia - Member of The Swarm and leader of Grammarian Tea House chat LS
#27 Jan 16 2013 at 2:27 PM Rating: Default
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I always enjoyed 1.0, even in Beta days. if it wasnt the game and its content it was the community. I have just as many fond memories in events in XIV as I did 7 years in XI. I dont pay attention to any XIV haters, hard to hate on a game you haven't even seen.
#28 Jan 16 2013 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:
It doesn't have to pull from just the casuals. It also has the entire Final Fantasy fan base to pull from. There are folks that played XI but then stopped, folks that skipped XI entirely but are interested in XIV, and folks like me that played XI and XIV concurrently for a while and are chomping at the bit.

The FF fans are the ones that SE really has to hook, not just casual MMOers. The casuals will jump to the next shiny that a game company releases in six months regardless. The FF fans will play XIV until XV or the next flavor of XIII comes out, assuming 2.0 doesn't suck monkey balls.


See this is where fact and fiction diverge, FF fans do not enjoy FF online, FF has sold more than 100 Million games, yet their online games combined have not sold more than ONE MILLION GAMES! That is a fact, FFXI launched on the ps2 when the PS2 was Hot! This is closer to the time when SE was still riding the wave of Square, way closer to FFVII/VIII/IX/X than we are Now. To put the future of FF XIV on a player base that has never been there, is not only risky but flat out stupid, at neither time has this "Final Fantasy Fanbase" ever embraced an online Final Fantasy. What makes you think they will this time around ?

Also XI players will not jump ship to XIV, they did not at release, they will not now, so you have a splintered FF online fanbase between two games, w/o casuals to supplement both or really jump into one, you run the risk of taking from players from your successful game that cost you almost nothing to run, and was a profitable enterprise, to move then to a new enterprise that is deep deep in the red, with the probability that it will crash and burn, and having those players not return to the other one.

If SE Focuses only on the imaginary FF fanbase that has never been there, they will fail harder than swotor.
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#29 Jan 17 2013 at 9:41 AM Rating: Good
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Isn't the most important thing for them to do to first aim to recapture the 300k~ player deficit between FFXI's peak and current population? ie. winning back the people who used to play FFXI but now don't for whatever reason. I think for this reason they shouldn't stray too far from XI.

The Japanese MMO market hasn't progressed that dramatically, WoW doesn't even exist here. An revamped FFXI would sell just fine if it were developed competently. There's plenty of potential players to attract without cannibalizing XI (as proved by the fact that XI's population used to be 500k). There's no need to invent the wheel.
#30 Jan 17 2013 at 4:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Dizmo wrote:
Isn't the most important thing for them to do to first aim to recapture the 300k~ player deficit between FFXI's peak and current population? ie. winning back the people who used to play FFXI but now don't for whatever reason. I think for this reason they shouldn't stray too far from XI.

The Japanese MMO market hasn't progressed that dramatically, WoW doesn't even exist here. An revamped FFXI would sell just fine if it were developed competently. There's plenty of potential players to attract without cannibalizing XI (as proved by the fact that XI's population used to be 500k). There's no need to invent the wheel.


Current FFXI players will tend to stick with FFXI, even if FFXIV copied heavily from FFXI (and I dare say especially if it did). Fact is, there's so much working against convincing a current FFXI player to switch to FFXIV for good. They'd have to start over in a game that most of their friends aren't playing (they're playing FFXI), and even if they stick with FFXIV awhile, the content will run out (it's a new game) and they'll find themselves drifting back to FFXI and unsubscribing from FFXIV (at the very least to save money) sooner or later.

Former FFXI players is a potential source of players, but many of them left because FFXI was too demanding. So if you copy heavily from FFXI and make it too demanding, former FFXI players will soon quit FFXIV for the same reasons they left FFXI in the first place.

Current non-FFXI playing Final Fantasy fans could also always have joined FFXI, but they didn't because it was too demanding. If FFXIV heavily clones FFXI, there's still no convincing this substantially large group to change their mind and play Final Fantasy Online.

And that leaves the young'n's, who've had nine years of WoW being the standard from which all MMOs are built. You may as well hand a kid a cassette-tape Walkman for their music needs as to convince them to play an MMO like FFXI.

So, I'm convinced that FFXIV has to do its own thing. A new experience that "feels like Final Fantasy" and is as friendly to use as WoW would cast a wide net and bring in players from all backgrounds. It's the only chance this game has for a future.
#31 Jan 17 2013 at 4:56 PM Rating: Good
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Also, SE doesn't want FFXI players to quit that and play FFXIV. They want those players to play both games (as is evidenced by the special combo pricing model they offered for a while).

If, at some point, SE wanted to do an FFXI-2 and overhaul the engine, THAT'S when you want FFXI players to drop and play that one.
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#32 Jan 17 2013 at 5:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Also, SE doesn't want FFXI players to quit that and play FFXIV. They want those players to play both games (as is evidenced by the special combo pricing model they offered for a while).

If, at some point, SE wanted to do an FFXI-2 and overhaul the engine, THAT'S when you want FFXI players to drop and play that one.


I don't think discount offers to play both games really work. It was tried with EQ and EQ2, but it still failed to convince most EQ players to stick with EQ2, most of whom happily ended their EQ2 sub.

For something like an engine overhaul, you'd do it WoW: Cataclysm style and force the revamp on everyone rather than split the populace with a sequel. A FFXI-2 works only as a complete replacement of FFXI-1, much like FFXIV 2.0 is completely replacing FFXIV 1.0.
#33 Jan 17 2013 at 7:02 PM Rating: Default
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Xoie wrote:
[
And that leaves the young'n's, who've had nine years of WoW being the standard from which all MMOs are built. You may as well hand a kid a cassette-tape Walkman for their music needs as to convince them to play an MMO like FFXI.

So, I'm convinced that FFXIV has to do its own thing. A new experience that "feels like Final Fantasy" and is as friendly to use as WoW would cast a wide net and bring in players from all backgrounds. It's the only chance this game has for a future.

SE is just going to fail if it gets greedy and tries to entice everyone instead of reinforcing its niche it built with XI though. SE has no chance competing in the generic MMO market (it barely even advertises its products in the west). Besides, again, no one's heard of WoW here (Japan), I grant that the game shouldn't be unnecessarily time consuming, but other than that I see no need to use WoW as a base. They have their own (very successful) game to base themselves from. And indeed they should, to stay loyal to their existing consumer base.

All these new MMOs are flopping one after another because they focus too much on emulating their competitors instead of developing their own strengths.

Quote:

Former FFXI players is a potential source of players, but many of them left because FFXI was too demanding. So if you copy heavily from FFXI and make it too demanding, former FFXI players will soon quit FFXIV for the same reasons they left FFXI in the first place.


This conclusion would make sense if its population quickly dropped from point of release, but its population was at half a million during the middle of its life and was fairly stable. The most obvious reason for the population dropping is natural attrition due to the fact that many people get bored of the same game after a few years, and the fact that it's hard to get back into a mature game once you've quit for a while.

Edited, Jan 17th 2013 8:17pm by Dizmo

Edited, Jan 18th 2013 2:11am by Dizmo
#34preludes, Posted: Jan 18 2013 at 9:17 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) FFXIV arr is I think going to be a major wake up call to Square, that everything they do is not glazed with gold. They think just throwing money at it will fix it, the mmo market is just so complex that isn't going to work and they will accept soon that they just are out of their depth here.
#35 Jan 18 2013 at 10:18 AM Rating: Good
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Alpha of FFXIV arr was awful


I don't know anyone who was actually in the alpha that said this. (And quite a few of my friends broke their NDA on the sly *cough*)
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#36 Jan 18 2013 at 10:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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preludes wrote:
FFXIV arr is I think going to be a major wake up call to Square, that everything they do is not glazed with gold. They think just throwing money at it will fix it, the mmo market is just so complex that isn't going to work and they will accept soon that they just are out of their depth here.

The reality is that they got lucky with FFXI, in that they hooked a brand new mmo audience. This is almost impossible to replicate today. Alpha of FFXIV arr was awful and that is not a successfull mmo in the making at all. People bail really quick on mmos that don't cut it these days, GW2 is a very good indication of this.


Why are you still here then? Just curious.
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#38 Jan 18 2013 at 10:35 AM Rating: Good
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preludes wrote:
FFXIV arr is I think going to be a major wake up call to Square, that everything they do is not glazed with gold. They think just throwing money at it will fix it, the mmo market is just so complex that isn't going to work and they will accept soon that they just are out of their depth here.

The reality is that they got lucky with FFXI, in that they hooked a brand new mmo audience. This is almost impossible to replicate today. Alpha of FFXIV arr was awful and that is not a successfull mmo in the making at all. People bail really quick on mmos that don't cut it these days, GW2 is a very good indication of this.



Find it hard to believe you were in the alpha and can call it awful. If you were, you're clearly breaking the NDA..
#39 Jan 18 2013 at 10:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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Unless you personally were in the alpha, which you cannot admit you were even if you were, I'm going to take any opinion of yours with a grain of salt.
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#40 Jan 18 2013 at 10:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Fixed it, no NDA breaking. I've not been informed that the NDA for the alpha has been lifted.
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#41 Jan 18 2013 at 11:21 AM Rating: Default
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Wint wrote:
preludes wrote:
FFXIV arr is I think going to be a major wake up call to Square, that everything they do is not glazed with gold. They think just throwing money at it will fix it, the mmo market is just so complex that isn't going to work and they will accept soon that they just are out of their depth here.

The reality is that they got lucky with FFXI, in that they hooked a brand new mmo audience. This is almost impossible to replicate today. Alpha of FFXIV arr was awful and that is not a successfull mmo in the making at all. People bail really quick on mmos that don't cut it these days, GW2 is a very good indication of this.


Why are you still here then? Just curious.


Because I choose to be, I don't need to give a reason to you as to why I post on a forum I'm a member of.

Is this your personal fansite or a professional forum of which you are paid staff?
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#42 Jan 18 2013 at 11:40 AM Rating: Good
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Smiley: oyvey

To get back to the OP discussion. I think for every mmo i played based on the "hype" i've always been horribly disappointed... Recently purchased the Mists of Panderia xpac for WoW because everywhere I go on the interwebz theres an ad saying its the best ever blah blah blah...

So i buy it, play it for 2 weeks, and realize I spent $40 for 5 levels and a farm Smiley: glare
#43 Jan 18 2013 at 12:01 PM Rating: Good
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About 13-14 years ago what always got hyped up was virtual worlds. There were dozens of them, most of them crappy, but each of them had its own little "hook" that made it "the most immersive/chat/social blah blah" ever. Some were paid access (one of those is still around) some were free to play.

Worlds Chat had the most interesting revenue model, I thought. VRML web access was free, but if you wanted a custom designed avatar, you had to pay $20 for the designer software. They sent you a CD and with that you could change your avatar with color slider bars, fully customizeable VRML clothing, as many times as you wanted.

The problem with those is that, aside from talking with people, there was really nothing to do. (Worlds Chat had David Bowie World....) The hype to those reached its peak with Second Life, which shined brightly for all of two years before petering out. Now you never really hear anything about it any more.
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#44 Jan 18 2013 at 12:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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preludes wrote:
Wint wrote:
preludes wrote:
FFXIV arr is I think going to be a major wake up call to Square, that everything they do is not glazed with gold. They think just throwing money at it will fix it, the mmo market is just so complex that isn't going to work and they will accept soon that they just are out of their depth here.

The reality is that they got lucky with FFXI, in that they hooked a brand new mmo audience. This is almost impossible to replicate today. Alpha of FFXIV arr was awful and that is not a successfull mmo in the making at all. People bail really quick on mmos that don't cut it these days, GW2 is a very good indication of this.


Why are you still here then? Just curious.


Because I choose to be, I don't need to give a reason to you as to why I post on a forum I'm a member of.

Is this your personal fansite or a professional forum of which you are paid staff?


I was just asking, no need to be a jerk about it.

This is a professional forum, but I am the paid admin for this piece of it and it's my job to keep the forums on topic and foster an environment that encourages people to not only post and share in a general enthusiasm for the game, but to be able to do so without having to worry about trolling from other members.

You haven't had a good thing to say about this game, and your attitude is not only poor, but you aren't even interested in making this game worth playing. As I see it, you only post here to rile up those of us who think the game has a chance, and if you think I will let you do that without any repercussions then I guess we'll see how that ends up.
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#45 Jan 20 2013 at 10:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Klibe wrote:
I think the biggest problem with games today is people are always putting a game down before they even get their hands on it. Everyone always has to compare a game to another one and not even play the game as the developers intended it.


Are you saying this is a problem because all of this hot air people are blowing on message boards discourages others from trying new games? If that's what you mean, I understand your concern, but I think the much bigger problem is with the people who listen. Why should anyone let what some degenerate on the internet says dictate how they feel about a game?

Moreover, unjustified hatred towards a game one hasn't even played is nothing new. I remember reading an issue of EGM in which an irate fan, before the game was even released to the public, wrote in and chewed out one of the reviewers for giving Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker a 9.5 instead of a 10. Granted, that was more hatred towards the reviewer than the game, but the principle is the same. The guy was livid over something who couldn't truthfully have formulated an opinion on because he hadn't played the game yet.

To answer your question, I can't remember the last game I played that I didn't hear something negative about before its release, but if you're going to keep your finger on the pulse of game culture, that just comes with the territory. There's no one one forcing you to take what they say seriously.
#46 Jan 20 2013 at 10:58 AM Rating: Default
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catwho wrote:
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Alpha of FFXIV arr was awful


I don't know anyone who was actually in the alpha that said this. (And quite a few of my friends broke their NDA on the sly *cough*)


The only reason is because people are excited for ARR to be like a standard MMORPG you've been playing countless times, nothing new and nothing original. It's like being excited for Rift.



Pontipy wrote:
preludes wrote:
FFXIV arr is I think going to be a major wake up call to Square, that everything they do is not glazed with gold. They think just throwing money at it will fix it, the mmo market is just so complex that isn't going to work and they will accept soon that they just are out of their depth here.

The reality is that they got lucky with FFXI, in that they hooked a brand new mmo audience. This is almost impossible to replicate today. Alpha of FFXIV arr was awful and that is not a successfull mmo in the making at all. People bail really quick on mmos that don't cut it these days, GW2 is a very good indication of this.



Find it hard to believe you were in the alpha and can call it awful. If you were, you're clearly breaking the NDA..


Google image search Mindflayer or Soulflayer, don't call someone out on NDA breech when you can find more on ARR Alpha than what SE wanted to release.

Edited, Jan 20th 2013 9:03am by Theonehio
#47 Jan 20 2013 at 7:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Klibe wrote:
I think the biggest problem with games today is people are always putting a game down before they even get their hands on it. Everyone always has to compare a game to another one and not even play the game as the developers intended it.


If XI was your first MMO then it goes without saying that you had no expectations going in and I think that is the case for almost everyone here. Most people have positive reactions when they're able to experience something for the first time and they're more willing to overlook flaws they find. When something comes along 10 years later and doesn't improve on the first offering, what else would you expect?

You only really get to impose your intention on players who haven't experienced something before. This is why many people have a special place in their gamer heart that is reserved for XI despite it's flaws. Now that there are standards for MMO elements and XIV is beaten in almost all categories, it's going to be compared to the other options.



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#48 Jan 20 2013 at 7:42 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
When something comes along 10 years later and doesn't improve on the first offering, what else would you expect?


Thank you, Sadly if you say this to the people who are frothing at the mouth for ARR (especially on official forums) you'll get torn to shreds. People rejecting logic sucks :\

Right now, all ARR is doing is improving on Final Fantasy XIV, a game that hardly improved on Final Fantasy XI. All they really had to do was take XI and bring it up to code then go **** crazy with new ideas, it would have went over a lot better whether people want to admit it or not.
#49 Jan 20 2013 at 10:15 PM Rating: Decent
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You seem to be of the opinion that everyone will be making the decision to play this game based on a measurable scale. For myself and many more like me it's not like that. I'm a fan of FF. I'm a console gamer and I want to play so I'm going to. It's also an emotional decision for many people. It sounds like many of those people are on the official forums. And you should know that tryin to apply logic to an emotional decision is an exercise in futility.

Maybe you should just let people be excited and have their fun without being a p00py pants lol. Smiley: grin
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