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Final Fantasy XIV 2.0 Leveling methods ?Follow

#1 Jan 08 2013 at 5:09 PM Rating: Decent
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So i was just reading some cool things about 2.0 One of the things that catched my eyes were the leveling methods,

Square enix wrote:


How will grinding vs. quests work for leveling? Will players find
more reward from taking on quests as opposed to just grinding?

We will be moving away from a grind-oriented leveling system to a quest/
content-driven leveling system.
No longer will randomly defeating public monsters be the most efficient way
to level your character.




What do you guys think? Something along the line like Leves in 1.0? I have literally not a single clue what they are gonna do. all i know is i'm hyped and pumped up for 2.0 lol :)

I always loved the grinding, And that was only in FFXI to be honest! and ffxiv also for a bit. i've played ALOT of mmo's but none i could bare the grinding. How ever in FFXI i had multiple jobs 75. i soloed SMN to 75. had SMN/DRG/RDM/DNC and some other jobs 75 as well. i loved it.

Seeing they are working on some changes on the combat in FFXIV makes me even more excited. What do you guys think or hope they will do?^^
#2 Jan 08 2013 at 6:47 PM Rating: Good
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I think the problem will be quests will only be the most efficient for leveling your first few jobs. I really can't see there being enough XP for each level and each job. Even with job only content there would have to be multiple at major gains. Which means the more "advanced" players may move on from quests to leves or grinding. And assuming quests are solo it may not as fun as a party.

If quests are not solo able it may or may not be easier to find a partner or group to do the quest with you. It may actually be easier to get a 1hr XP party together where all enjoy a reward rather than assistance for your quest.

Again. Short term - could be good for leveling one to two jobs. If you cap other jobs maybe save quest XP for a job you need to level but don't want. We will have to wait for release to see.
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#3 Jan 08 2013 at 6:55 PM Rating: Good
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Levequests, repeatables, and dungeon runs/objectives, as well as FATE will likely fill the gap once the one-off quests are done. However they did say they're of the mind of adding quests continually.
#4 Jan 08 2013 at 7:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Pretty sure levequests are meant to replace grinding. I believe somewhere Yoshi said that they were planning on adding 200 quests per update. I'll have to see if I can find that.
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#5 Jan 08 2013 at 7:56 PM Rating: Good
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200 Per? Wow thats insane...


@ Deron, True. i would prefer grinding, Just for the sake of interaction with other people really. Wouldn't mind to solo every now and then but i don't want it to become like most mmo's where you basicly just run solo through level 1->cap and do dungeons with others.
#7 Jan 08 2013 at 10:10 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Pretty sure levequests are meant to replace grinding.


It only replaces grinding with more structured grinding. Instead of making a group, heading to a campsite, and plowing through monsters, we make a group (or not), choose the exact level of our monsters, and where they'll appear.

Really it's about the same thing either way. Leves just trade a few more menus for a smidgen less exploration.
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#8 Jan 09 2013 at 12:07 AM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
Wint wrote:
Pretty sure levequests are meant to replace grinding.


It only replaces grinding with more structured grinding. Instead of making a group, heading to a campsite, and plowing through monsters, we make a group (or not), choose the exact level of our monsters, and where they'll appear.

Really it's about the same thing either way. Leves just trade a few more menus for a smidgen less exploration.

Nothing wrong with a little structure. All Final Fantasies have grinding during the journey, give me a few objectives littered into the experience. Hey come grind out this area, perhaps you might run into this NM on this particular area, perhaps this NM might hold a few treasures or bar access to deeper entry. Assaults from XI were kind of like this to a degree. Each required different amounts of teamates to particpate.
Just make these levequests not require back and forth travel just for the sake of it like standard quests. More kicking ass/less traveling versus more traveling/less ass kicking. Dynamis style traversing with the time extensions and NMs marked on the map, hmmm.

How about some journey leves? Leves spanning hundreds of hours. Traversing a gigantic desert or snowfield with lost ruins hidden somewhere in these vast areas. The area and time to complete the journey being so long. That beating the leve in one sitting is not applicable. There will be save nodes with ayetherites inside camps or oasises. I play three hours, stumble upon a save area. Warp back to a city. I grab my friends the next real life day at a time good for all of us. We warp back to our last save node and continue the journey for that day. After a week or two, we finally reach our destination. These journeys could have a rare type of loot only found in these areas. What kind of stories would I have to tell in my journal on lodestone? WKC kind of did this but all the journeys could be completed in too short a time.

I think SE should use those levecards to differintiate style of contents. At launch they had a wide amount of cards but all the content was too similar. What if each of those cards provided fast access to what type of content I wanted to partake in at any given time?
#9 Jan 09 2013 at 7:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Would love to see some more leves though, And not just in numbers but also in variations. i usually had the same leves which became a drag at times.
But time will tell:) i have faith in the new team that is rebuilding this beautiful world. And i for one can't wait untill i can begin my brand new adventures in the world of FFXIV :)
#10 Jan 09 2013 at 1:18 PM Rating: Default
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sandpark wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
Wint wrote:
Pretty sure levequests are meant to replace grinding.


It only replaces grinding with more structured grinding. Instead of making a group, heading to a campsite, and plowing through monsters, we make a group (or not), choose the exact level of our monsters, and where they'll appear.

Really it's about the same thing either way. Leves just trade a few more menus for a smidgen less exploration.

Nothing wrong with a little structure. All Final Fantasies have grinding during the journey, give me a few objectives littered into the experience. Hey come grind out this area, perhaps you might run into this NM on this particular area, perhaps this NM might hold a few treasures or bar access to deeper entry. Assaults from XI were kind of like this to a degree. Each required different amounts of teamates to particpate.
Just make these levequests not require back and forth travel just for the sake of it like standard quests. More kicking ass/less traveling versus more traveling/less ass kicking. Dynamis style traversing with the time extensions and NMs marked on the map, hmmm.

How about some journey leves? Leves spanning hundreds of hours. Traversing a gigantic desert or snowfield with lost ruins hidden somewhere in these vast areas. The area and time to complete the journey being so long. That beating the leve in one sitting is not applicable. There will be save nodes with ayetherites inside camps or oasises. I play three hours, stumble upon a save area. Warp back to a city. I grab my friends the next real life day at a time good for all of us. We warp back to our last save node and continue the journey for that day. After a week or two, we finally reach our destination. These journeys could have a rare type of loot only found in these areas. What kind of stories would I have to tell in my journal on lodestone? WKC kind of did this but all the journeys could be completed in too short a time.

I think SE should use those levecards to differintiate style of contents. At launch they had a wide amount of cards but all the content was too similar. What if each of those cards provided fast access to what type of content I wanted to partake in at any given time?



This is actually an interesting spin on grinding that incorporates a best of both worlds so to speak. We have quests/leves for group exploration, and maybe while under the same quest/leve, there's a sigil that allows for exp chains. Instead of camping one area, everyone is on the go in a "group grind" to complete an objective. How efficient will determine whether or not a group can finish within an hour or 3 hours... i dont think a leve should take hundreds of hours lol, thats just plain overkill and a mess to continue later on if you group with randoms.
#11 Jan 09 2013 at 6:28 PM Rating: Decent
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From what I know they will have Quest EXP for leveling your jobs up to a point and then Leves and Parties after that. I can say that there will probably be enough low level quest EXP for 2 jobs per city, doing the same types of stuff, just exploring the new area. After that you have different Leves, additional Quests here and there, and of course, Grinding or Parties.
#12 Jan 16 2013 at 10:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Yoshi said that they were planning on adding 200 quests per update.


IMO, a decision such as this to replace, exp parties is well, stupid, why go through the trouble, then many of the quests could suck, repetitive, possibly broken, etc... as opposed to making great zones as well as more zones to find a good pt, chat and xp all night, while listening to Jrock!

Quote:
@ Deron, True. i would prefer grinding, Just for the sake of interaction with other people really. Wouldn't mind to solo every now and then but i don't want it to become like most mmo's where you basicly just run solo through level 1->cap and do dungeons with others.


I agree with this, hope we have more of you out there!

Quote:
Just make these levequests not require back and forth travel just for the sake of it like standard quests. More kicking ass/less traveling versus more traveling/less ass kicking. Dynamis style traversing with the time extensions and NMs marked on the map, hmmm.


I disagree and hope this doesn't happen, can we do that? I actually liked the travel, riding chocobos, and hoped for another form of transportation like a personal airship, it could be done, I actually thought, or hoped these... Pic1 Pic2
would be the airships, not to large, since there would be many in the skies, and make them something you have to earn, like the equivalent of a matts cap, that would be nice, then you would have status... a rare useful item, fun, and what ever else you can think of

Quote:
How about some journey leves? Leves spanning hundreds of hours. Traversing a gigantic desert or snowfield with lost ruins hidden somewhere in these vast areas. The area and time to complete the journey being so long. That beating the leve in one sitting is not applicable. There will be save nodes with ayetherites inside camps or oasises. I play three hours, stumble upon a save area. Warp back to a city. I grab my friends the next real life day at a time good for all of us. We warp back to our last save node and continue the journey for that day. After a week or two, we finally reach our destination. These journeys could have a rare type of loot only found in these areas. What kind of stories would I have to tell in my journal on lodestone?


This seems fun, as im up for things that keep that ffxi niche of things taking time,effort,strategy,planning,socializing to earn.

Quote:
I think the problem will be quests will only be the most efficient for leveling your first few jobs. I really can't see there being enough XP for each level and each job. Even with job only content there would have to be multiple at major gains. Which means the more "advanced" players may move on from quests to leves or grinding. And assuming quests are solo it may not as fun as a party.


This is why finding a party and grinding should remain in the game, I wouldn't mind doing some quests to finish a level or gain a significant amount of xp to change the pace or get into a good story(I hope story will continue to be implemented, even those small quests that only build town npc background char, loved those), but I hope we still will be able to get to max level in *cough/ahem* traditional*ffxi* style xping.

Edited, Jan 16th 2013 11:36pm by Ishihara
#13 Jan 17 2013 at 11:15 AM Rating: Good
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Ishihara wrote:
IMO, a decision such as this to replace, exp parties is well, stupid, why go through the trouble, then many of the quests could suck, repetitive, possibly broken, etc... as opposed to making great zones as well as more zones to find a good pt, chat and xp all night, while listening to Jrock!

Why can't we have quests? They should do these quests for leveling up just like offline final fantasies. Traveling to a new zone with party members, fighting monsters along the way to a quest objective. That objective might just be a cs or some zone boss. It would require some leveling up to complete. Grinding in one spot for hours might feel good to socialise in. But that is not Final Fantasy. Unless FFXI is the only FF that counts for you?

Ishihara wrote:
I disagree and hope this doesn't happen, can we do that? I actually liked the travel, riding chocobos, and hoped for another form of transportation like a personal airship, it could be done, I actually thought, or hoped these... Pic1 Pic2
would be the airships, not to large, since there would be many in the skies, and make them something you have to earn, like the equivalent of a matts cap, that would be nice, then you would have status... a rare useful item, fun, and what ever else you can think of

You misunderstood me I think. There will still be plenty of sidequest involving traveling. For the purpose of expanding lore or questing stuff. I prefer levequest to be a repeatable group or solo content that has a more direct jump in and go leveling process. Think of the sub job quests in Valkurm or the quested genkai, I'm saying I want levequest to function something like those. I'd go so far as to level cap areas of importance. Hence my idea of journey leves. Instead of level up at X area then travel to Y to complete the tasks. I'm suggesting level up & accomplish the tasks in X area.

Ishihara wrote:
This is why finding a party and grinding should remain in the game, I wouldn't mind doing some quests to finish a level or gain a significant amount of xp to change the pace or get into a good story(I hope story will continue to be implemented, even those small quests that only build town npc background char, loved those), but I hope we still will be able to get to max level in *cough/ahem* traditional*ffxi* style xping.

Then I hope your hope doesn't come true. That would pretty much limit the playerbase to old XI players or other old school type progression mmo players. That's not Final Fantasy. Final Fantasy consist of grinding en route towards steady incoming objectives. They are not going to implement some block to deny you killing stuff in the same area for X amount of hours. They just won't force people to level one way. Forcing of hands will spell smallness in playerbase. That's the equivalent of telling players the only way to level up would be to PvP. If SE starts telling players that for something they pay for. They may as well close shop now or be content with a relatively small playerbase.
#14 Jan 21 2013 at 9:20 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm cool with us getting a group together, taking on a quest, and then there are lots of mobs we have to pull, and fight to get to that said quest. I'm all good for that. I just hope that if we want to one night go adventuring to a part of the map we've never seen before, and see a cool waterfall or something with some nice mobs around the area. That we'd be able to pull mobs from that area, and level at a reasonable rate, while we chat and have fun.

I'm all for change for the better of more players, but I would also like the option to grind at a camp, and I hope to be able to do so with results. Not a, we can do it, but its not worth it type of situation. The more options the better, because one of the things I didn't like about FFXI was that there were set camps labeled as the best, and the only camps you should be at. You should have a chance to fight in a lot of areas, after all it is a gigantic world that we'll be inhabiting.
#15 Jan 21 2013 at 10:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Personally, I'd prefer to have leveling as a mix of quests, mob killing, explorations, challenges and achievements. 200 quests might sound like a lot but if they are all collect X amount of Y then turn in to Z NPC then you can make a couple thousand quests using an automated script. Even with some dedicate writing, people will feel the quests being too shallow.

I'd prefer maybe 20 quests or even 1-2 quests per update but with quality writing, thoughts and better rewards rather than 200 quests that are shallow and can be auto-generated.

There are other methods to make leveling less monotonous. SE can move the xp earning methods to crafting and let people earn more level exp from crafting. They can also set exploration as an experience point earning event. For example, player can earn a fixed amount of exp corresponding to their level as they found a location or just clear all the fog-of-war in an area. They can also use certain challenges for players to earn exp based on level and difficulty. For example, you can earn a bonus exp if you manage to kill 1/5/10/50/100 Tough mobs with a critical hit or you earn an exp bonus if you manage to kill every type of monster in an area at least once. SE can also set challenges/achievements such as "Join a party and earn 5000exp together!" or "Perform a skill chain then followed by a magic burst for X amount of damage" or "Complete X mission with a party consist of only Y job" or "Clear a mission using only magic" or "As a party, kill all NM in the area at least once"

Of course, I do realize that these have been done before and they are not that much different from generic quests and they can take out the immersions but they also give out more possibilities for people to solo, party and explore the game world instead of just repeating the same stuff over and over: kill, get item, turn in...etc. Of course, there is nothing to stop SE from setting up a guild that will allow players to manage the achievements/challenges to increase the immersion.

Can anyone think of funny challenges/achievements that would encourage people to party and make funny friends? I have a few:

Merry men - Invite 2 Rangers to your party and earn 5000 exp together.
Rock band - Earn 5000 exp with 4 Bards in your party
We are Legion - Form an alliance and kill a notorious monster that is at least 11 levels above the highest level member of the alliance.
Bonded by blood - As a 6-person party, get K.O. by a single monster and have to return home
Tough cookie - earn 10,000 exp soloing without getting K.O. once
Wet noodle - Get K.O. 5 times without earning any exp
King of the hill - Kill the monster that have killed all other members of your party
Hard choice - K.O. a member of your party with the charmed status effect
Oops... - K.O. a member of your party while you are under charmed effect
Harsh world - get K.O. by poison while not in combat and alone in X area.

Edited, Jan 21st 2013 11:46am by Oddwaffle
#16 Jan 21 2013 at 11:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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This is GOOD for one major reason:

In 1.0 the most effective method was powerleveling. You could go from 1-30 in a few hours, then change camps and go 30-45 in another few hours, then party from 45-50 in 2 hours.

This was great for getting the Maats Crown, but terrible for partying and gameplay. This is also why no one used the party search feature and it was difficult to get parties.

From what I understand, there will be the normal quests, levequests, and then repeatable dungeon content. I think these are just changes made to de-incentivise power-leveing and also provide fun leveling over camp spots.
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#17 Jan 21 2013 at 1:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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I also remember reading that they are going to increase the amount of time (be it XP or something else) it takes to get to cap. It was stupidly easy in 1.0 if you knew the tricks.
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#18 Jan 21 2013 at 2:46 PM Rating: Good
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Gridania:
Talk to NPC: Kill 5 marmots.
Talk to NPC: Gain 1k exp
Talk to NPC: Pick 5 vegetables
Talk to NPC: Kill 5 marmots and 2 fungars
Ad infinitum.

Ul'dah:
Talk to NPC: Kill 5 Coblyns.
Talk to NPC: Gain 1k exp
Talk to NPC: Pick 5 vegetables
Talk to NPC: Kill 5 Coblyns and 2 dodos
Ad infinitum.

Limsa:
Talk to NPC: Kill 5 Lost Ewe.
Talk to NPC: Gain 1k exp
Talk to NPC: Pick 5 vegetables
Talk to NPC: Kill 5 Lost Ewe and 2 puks
Ad infinitum.

Sprinkle a dungeon here and there. Basically, played any MMO in recent years you know exactly what to expect with ARR as that's SE's goal.

They said they were increasing the time but it's still easy to cap off from what we seen, especially if rates stay the same. They're underestimating how powerful Quest chaining is, take away the ability to grind on monsters (confirmed) it'll be like having powerleveling back but in a different form.
#19 Jan 21 2013 at 4:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I'd prefer maybe 20 quests or even 1-2 quests per update but with quality writing, thoughts and better rewards rather than 200 quests that are shallow and can be auto-generated.


It actually just doesn't matter. The number of quests at launch and the number of quests added in each update are entirely meaningless numbers bandied about to sound impressive because they're technically large.

What matters is the pacing.

Do you just have 200 "Kill X of Y" quests? Because that's just grinding with a progress counter other than your xp bar. And adding a jillion of those is meaningless, they may as well not even be there.

For a quest-leveling system to work, you need enough of those to accumulate a particular amount of xp, and enough interesting quests and dungeon quests to break up the monotony so the player doesn't mind when they hit a Kill X of Y. Adding story elements into the quest line is helpful for breaking up the experience a bit too, and that's something that I expect to see done well in a Final Fantasy game. I actually care less about how good the questing system is than I do about the story being good and interesting.

The fact is too, there's no possible way there are going to be enough quests to level all your jobs. That's a weakness that FFXIV (and FFXI if it had this system) have when it comes to linear progression like this. The ability to switch jobs means that one character can potentially need hundreds of levels worth of content in order to max out, and resetting quest progress when you switch jobs would feel really strange. So that's not feasible. I'm suspecting some combination of standard questing along with story questing and dungeon questing to break things up.

It's possible there's some old fashioned grinding that'll be involved, that's Final Fantasy (every Final Fantasy), so it's kinda ok for that to be there. But it can be structured into the system, for instance with daily Kill X of Y quests. Once again, those quests are just grinding, but it gives you an end in sight so it's not quite as daunting as sitting there and pulling mobs for hours on end.


Edited, Jan 21st 2013 4:48pm by Callinon
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#20 Jan 21 2013 at 5:31 PM Rating: Good
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I hope we have at least a few grind exp camps similar to old FFXI. Healing is what I usually do, so having some spots to flop down with an exp party would be a nice change from constant questing. Still have to wait and see how things work out for the game though since I had very little play time in the original XIV before I dropped it to return to XI.
#21 Jan 21 2013 at 5:41 PM Rating: Good
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I feel like this very topic is what other threads have been devolving into no matter what... Strange that is has so few posts.

FFXI is the only MMO I've played, so my natural first response to this modern system is that it's abrasive and too repetitive. I respect Yoshi's decision to stick to current trends in the market. I'm not so old-fashioned that I won't give FFXIV a try. I strongly expect there to be other ways of progressing, whether it's via grouping together or with the addition of a Beastmaster-type class later down the line. If questing is too effective that it makes partying obsolete, it will be very jarring considering what I'm used to (FFXI). As Ueno mentioned, I'm also a mage, so I don't want to spend 30+ levels questing, questing, questing by myself without learning to perform my job within a group dynamic. If I want to solo, I'll take up the BST-like job if one is ever released.
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#22 Jan 21 2013 at 5:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Keep in mind too that BST soloed to max level specifically because nobody wanted them in an exp party, because their pet further divided exp. It was like having a 7th person taking a chunk of your exp. They later fixed this I believe, but the damage was done.

They didn't sit down as say "Let's make a job good at soloing." They sat down and said "A job that has a pet monster sounds cool."

I suspect a combination of questing and FFXI-style exp partying is probably the way to go. If you add in dungeon runs, it's basically the same as grinding in a party.. just grinding toward a geographical goal (the end of the dungeon) rather than a numerical one.
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#23 Jan 21 2013 at 5:55 PM Rating: Good
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Ah, yes, I definitely remember the exp cut. However, I like what the job came to represent: being able to solo to max level without needing to sit around and wait for a party. I could go places where a normal exp party would be terrified to tread, and come out with either a few levels or needing a new Reraise Gorget. But I felt so much pride, getting as many levels as the job as I did (higher than my sig, somewhere near 70...need to update it). That's more so what I want than simply a "soloing" class.
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#24 Jan 21 2013 at 9:35 PM Rating: Decent
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I see some with the fear of there being no static grind camps in ARR. Here on these forums and on the official forums. All is not lost if you read into the fine print my young padawan. All that was stated was that grinding xp mobs would not be an efficient means to level. Did you ever stop and think that maybe this was needed to accommodate his new vision of monster claims? So you may not be gaining levels in traditional XI type style? That still leaves a plethora of future options requiring grinding perhaps...

Well let's dig further into the rabbithole Watson! Maybe grinding will still be done for other purposes?????
Free Company economy- Think FFT bar jobs, these jobs require supplying certain businesses with insane amounts of exotic monster hides, bones, etc.

Merit point systems- Now I hope ARR should it require pt monster killing. Not all be normal monster slaying. Take a page from Abyssea atmas aquisitions too. Feats of heroism.

Magian Trial adapted to ARR- But have the best trials require pt coordination against certain mobs.

Festivals of the hunt- Global , not confined to one city.

Materia- Powering it up.

Quests- Maybe some will require a particular species to meet genocide.

These are just some solutions. Remember that Yoshi only does what he thinks the community wants or needs. It's not the end of the world. If there is high demand. I am sure he will look into some system that fulfills a need. It doesn't have to be leveling up necessarily. :)
#25 Jan 21 2013 at 9:38 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Keep in mind too that BST soloed to max level specifically because nobody wanted them in an exp party, because their pet further divided exp. It was like having a 7th person taking a chunk of your exp. They later fixed this I believe, but the damage was done.

They didn't sit down as say "Let's make a job good at soloing." They sat down and said "A job that has a pet monster sounds cool."

I suspect a combination of questing and FFXI-style exp partying is probably the way to go. If you add in dungeon runs, it's basically the same as grinding in a party.. just grinding toward a geographical goal (the end of the dungeon) rather than a numerical one.

The last part of your post hit the nail on the head. That is the way you level up in offline Final Fantasies is it not?

Edited, Jan 21st 2013 10:39pm by sandpark
#26 Jan 21 2013 at 11:01 PM Rating: Good
Throw in a dungeon with random floor tiles, rotating pit-holes to the basement a-la Garlaige Citadel, and random treasure chest spawns and I'm in. Hell, let's get some steaming piles of poo from the giant dragon that resides in the castle, give the place some flava!
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#27 Jan 21 2013 at 11:37 PM Rating: Good
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Theonehio wrote:
Gridania:
Talk to NPC: Kill 5 marmots.
Talk to NPC: Gain 1k exp
Talk to NPC: Pick 5 vegetables
Talk to NPC: Kill 5 marmots and 2 fungars
Ad infinitum.

Ul'dah:
Talk to NPC: Kill 5 Coblyns.
Talk to NPC: Gain 1k exp
Talk to NPC: Pick 5 vegetables
Talk to NPC: Kill 5 Coblyns and 2 dodos
Ad infinitum.

Limsa:
Talk to NPC: Kill 5 Lost Ewe.
Talk to NPC: Gain 1k exp
Talk to NPC: Pick 5 vegetables
Talk to NPC: Kill 5 Lost Ewe and 2 puks
Ad infinitum.


Woah -- so the flavour of each city will seem so different!


Edited, Jan 22nd 2013 12:37am by KaneKitty
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#28 Jan 22 2013 at 4:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Do you just have 200 "Kill X of Y" quests? Because that's just grinding with a progress counter other than your xp bar. And adding a jillion of those is meaningless, they may as well not even be there.


Strictly speaking, it's directed grinding. Contrast to the undirected grinding in FFXI. In XI, the players figured out what the best places to grind were. The advantage to directed grinding is content distribution. If you don't want your players to spend all their time in Crawler's Next killing caterpillars because it's "teh best", you can only give them the larger XP reward for say, 50 caterpillars. Then, you send them on their way to someplace else. That's its function in theory, at least.

It can also have the nasty side effect of making players feel like they're following the game's GPS, rather than exploring a living world, but that's more to do with your presentation of it (!'s everywhere, or make them find the quest-givers). Players do want some direction in finding game objectives, and don't want to feel like they're wasting their time just looking for them, but there's a balance that's needed besides smacking them in the face with an objective just for wandering into the area.

Personally I like a system (not unlike XI's) that forces you to listen to the NPC to actually know what and why you're doing a quest (even though a lot of XI's quests were frankly dumb). I'd like to see something like a journal system that lets you take hints when you need them rather than putting the entire game on rails. e.g., the NPC says something about a waterfall, linking your quest log to journal pages about waterfalls that you've already visited, maybe with a hint that "This place sounds/doesn't sound familiar" depending on whether you've previously been to the correct place. Preserve the open world exploration, please. Just because I don't like having to look up the answer online doesn't mean I need to be beat over the head with !'s.

Quote:

For a quest-leveling system to work, you need enough of those to accumulate a particular amount of xp, and enough interesting quests and dungeon quests to break up the monotony so the player doesn't mind when they hit a Kill X of Y. Adding story elements into the quest line is helpful for breaking up the experience a bit too, and that's something that I expect to see done well in a Final Fantasy game. I actually care less about how good the questing system is than I do about the story being good and interesting.


Doesn't even necessarily have to be about quantity, as much as length. A single quest could be a checklist that tells you to kill 100 monsters. Then it's hardly so different from the old camp-and-grind of FFXI. I'm not saying this is the best system, but my point is this: I don't think anyone really feels that five separate quests that tell you to kill X number of Y mobs in the same area is some stroke of game design brilliance. They're MONSTERS. I don't need some half-baked narrative reason for killing each individual species. I already want them dead. That's why I bought your game.

So there are better things to do with your content designers and programmers than have them design these meaningless tasks just to increase your number of "quests". Like have them create real content.
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#29 Jan 26 2013 at 11:17 PM Rating: Decent
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sandpark wrote:
Ishihara wrote:
IMO, a decision such as this to replace, exp parties is well, stupid, why go through the trouble, then many of the quests could suck, repetitive, possibly broken, etc... as opposed to making great zones as well as more zones to find a good pt, chat and xp all night, while listening to Jrock!

Why can't we have quests? They should do these quests for leveling up just like offline final fantasies. Traveling to a new zone with party members, fighting monsters along the way to a quest objective. That objective might just be a cs or some zone boss. It would require some leveling up to complete. Grinding in one spot for hours might feel good to socialise in. But that is not Final Fantasy. Unless FFXI is the only FF that counts for you?

Ishihara wrote:
I disagree and hope this doesn't happen, can we do that? I actually liked the travel, riding chocobos, and hoped for another form of transportation like a personal airship, it could be done, I actually thought, or hoped these... Pic1 Pic2
would be the airships, not to large, since there would be many in the skies, and make them something you have to earn, like the equivalent of a matts cap, that would be nice, then you would have status... a rare useful item, fun, and what ever else you can think of

You misunderstood me I think. There will still be plenty of sidequest involving traveling. For the purpose of expanding lore or questing stuff. I prefer levequest to be a repeatable group or solo content that has a more direct jump in and go leveling process. Think of the sub job quests in Valkurm or the quested genkai, I'm saying I want levequest to function something like those. I'd go so far as to level cap areas of importance. Hence my idea of journey leves. Instead of level up at X area then travel to Y to complete the tasks. I'm suggesting level up & accomplish the tasks in X area.

Ishihara wrote:
This is why finding a party and grinding should remain in the game, I wouldn't mind doing some quests to finish a level or gain a significant amount of xp to change the pace or get into a good story(I hope story will continue to be implemented, even those small quests that only build town npc background char, loved those), but I hope we still will be able to get to max level in *cough/ahem* traditional*ffxi* style xping.

Then I hope your hope doesn't come true. That would pretty much limit the playerbase to old XI players or other old school type progression mmo players. That's not Final Fantasy. Final Fantasy consist of grinding en route towards steady incoming objectives. They are not going to implement some block to deny you killing stuff in the same area for X amount of hours. They just won't force people to level one way. Forcing of hands will spell smallness in playerbase. That's the equivalent of telling players the only way to level up would be to PvP. If SE starts telling players that for something they pay for. They may as well close shop now or be content with a relatively small playerbase.


I actually like his this post...

Quote:
I'm cool with us getting a group together, taking on a quest, and then there are lots of mobs we have to pull, and fight to get to that said quest. I'm all good for that. I just hope that if we want to one night go adventuring to a part of the map we've never seen before, and see a cool waterfall or something with some nice mobs around the area. That we'd be able to pull mobs from that area, and level at a reasonable rate, while we chat and have fun.

I'm all for change for the better of more players, but I would also like the option to grind at a camp, and I hope to be able to do so with results. Not a, we can do it, but its not worth it type of situation. The more options the better, because one of the things I didn't like about FFXI was that there were set camps labeled as the best, and the only camps you should be at. You should have a chance to fight in a lot of areas, after all it is a gigantic world that we'll be inhabiting.


What I and I think many other FFXI fans would really dislike is for them to go all the way mainstream, if less subs is a penalty then that's what it is, they already aren't worried about money yet, as its paid for by them, XI wasn't mainstream and its still around as one of the most populated and profiatable mmos compared to the many clones out there. I don't want a game were instances are the primary source of any type of activity. I just hope there's a fragment of FFXI's xping style in XIV, even the party finding system has changed, its becoming less player organized and more jump in push a few buttons and voila, your hackin and slashing for 10mins then repeat.

Edited, Jan 27th 2013 12:20am by Ishihara

Edited, Jan 27th 2013 12:21am by Ishihara
#30 Jan 26 2013 at 11:24 PM Rating: Good
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XI was plenty mainstream. Maybe not as successful as Everquest at the time, but certainly successful and profitable in its own right. XIV is FAAAAAAAAAR from profitable right now.

I'd be surprised to see the exp grind completely removed since it's such a staple of the Final Fantasy series, but at the same time I doubt it would be the primary source of gameplay. I expect more focused, goal-oriented gameplay at this point from a new MMO.
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#31 Jan 26 2013 at 11:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
XI was plenty mainstream. Maybe not as successful as Everquest at the time, but certainly successful and profitable in its own right. XIV is FAAAAAAAAAR from profitable right now.

I'd be surprised to see the exp grind completely removed since it's such a staple of the Final Fantasy series, but at the same time I doubt it would be the primary source of gameplay. I expect more focused, goal-oriented gameplay at this point from a new MMO.


Quote:
go all the way mainstream, if less subs is a penalty then that's what it is, they already aren't worried about money yet, as its paid for by them, XI wasn't mainstream and its still around as one of the most populated and profitable mmos compared to the many clones out there.


I hope its the one of the main choices, and other options are available, not saying no quests or w/e at all. Grinding was an option in 1.0, just hoping they'll tweak it to mimic xi in many ways.
#32 Jan 26 2013 at 11:41 PM Rating: Good
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While I really don't think that grinding out XP is a staple of the FF series, on the whole, it was a huge part of XI, for better or for worse.

I've grown to dislike XI for its grind for many reasons, but none other than the fact that the concept took people away from experiencing real content. Many other games have epic experiences that you can jump right into at just about any level, but if you think about it, everything I ever did in XI required planning, ideal setups and convincing people who'd already done it. Not only was setting up a group for anything like this difficult, but many experiences weren't particularly rewarding, they were just arbitrary milestones to open up a new scenario or area, (e.g. Sky, sea).

I really do think that an XI-style experience system would ruin 2.0 for many people, and the last thing SE needs right now is for the game to flop a second time.
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#33 Jan 27 2013 at 1:13 AM Rating: Decent
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but if you think about it, everything I ever did in XI required planning, ideal setups and convincing people who'd already done it. Not only was setting up a group for anything like this difficult, but many experiences weren't particularly rewarding, they were just arbitrary milestones to open up a new scenario or area,


lol I tried to express what you just said in an earlier post as something I missed but i deleted it, those things made the game fun for me, b/c it wasnt just "some" game, it was a virtual society, you had to understand how to entice people, understand who understood their roles, understand peoples play times, and so much more, if you got anywhere in xi, you understood how to communicate, how to plan, learned fast and were patient, etc. that brought a whole new dynamic to the game, you "needed others" to complete stuff, you didnt have the option of playing a social game solo, which how mmos should be, there are plenty games offline, or that offer people to play the game with only who they deem "able"... I feel like im the only one who understands this sometimes

Quote:
but many experiences weren't particularly rewarding, they were just arbitrary milestones to open up a new scenario or area, (e.g. Sky, sea).


wow your on a role, i loved that, i loved just working my way to promy's, getting to norg or gaining acces to Tavnazian Safehold, exploring for the first time, just knowing I was close to getting to sea, as someone else mentioned, its about the journey...I would eventually be disappointed if i logged on every night and completed something %100... nah, i want something to build up, work towards, something that may even take months, the thing is, I feel my memories will have to much of an effect on how I receive this game, sucks b/c i havent "really" played an mmo since i left xi
#34 Jan 27 2013 at 1:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Uhhh... I could be mistaken, but I think he's saying that he DOES NOT like those things about XI. And he makes some valid complaints. While I think there were positive elements to the cooperation and communication that XI required, those things can be strongly incentivized without being required, and XI required it without providing tools that might make such an experience less frustrating.
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Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#35 Jan 27 2013 at 3:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Hmmm... Its quite clear that he doesn't like those things, but... I do... and I think being able to communicate is all the tool you need, the only thing I couldve asked for was the Japanese translator function, which was planned but dropped

Edited, Jan 27th 2013 6:58am by Ishihara
#36 Jan 27 2013 at 10:33 AM Rating: Decent
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TurboTom wrote:
While I really don't think that grinding out XP is a staple of the FF series, on the whole, it was a huge part of XI, for better or for worse. .


Sarcasm? Grind = Final Fantasy much like Breathing/Blood Flow = Staying Alive.

An "XI style grind" would only ruin ARR if SE's target is the WoW type audience. Otherwise, Quest based leveling is just as much of a grind because you WILL be repeating the same sh*t over and over.

No one can deny this, no one can say "SE will do it different!" No, no they won't.
#37 Jan 27 2013 at 11:14 AM Rating: Good
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The ironic thing is that the exp grind is pretty much gone from XI now.
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#38 Jan 27 2013 at 2:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Ishihara wrote:
Hmmm... Its quite clear that he doesn't like those things, but... I do... and I think being able to communicate is all the tool you need, the only thing I couldve asked for was the Japanese translator function, which was planned but dropped

Edited, Jan 27th 2013 6:58am by Ishihara


Clearly communication was the only tool you needed or the game would have been unplayable. But for a game that required one to overcome so many obstacles to cooperation, it didn't give you many tools to do it easily. e.g., a linkshell billboard would have been a great tool at minimum. Most serious LSs took to making their own out of game websites with calendars and forum.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#39 Jan 27 2013 at 3:21 PM Rating: Default
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Clearly communication was the only tool you needed or the game would have been unplayable. But for a game that required one to overcome so many obstacles to cooperation, it didn't give you many tools to do it easily. e.g., a linkshell billboard would have been a great tool at minimum. Most serious LSs took to making their own out of game websites with calendars and forum.



Other than the one you mention, which wasn't a big deal, there are plenty of linkshells that ran well by using free services, believe it or not, i've even been in a few that didn't use websites at all(over 20 members), what other obstacles would you say there were, and I made a list of them on another post I made, but anything other than "idiots"(heh) not paying attention was fine.

The ARR team is implementing a quick party find system which "may"(maybe ill like idk, just speculating, its a forum) take away all the fun of having to find people to party with, for me and people I played with it was fun, we did it together, we knew what to look for, who to ask, how to ask, good times to ask(which was fun, b/c again the world had its own society, individual players had events planned weeks ahead, so you had to understand their schedule).

If your talking about quest difficulty, or anything to do with design pertaining to how you did things after you've got "cooperation" then... "sigh".

Edited, Jan 27th 2013 4:24pm by Ishihara

Actually lol the steps are...

Know what you want in your party depending on what job your gonna level.

Check linkshell list or friendslist first, or have someone you've told in advance you wanna level, or most of the time be invited to a party, id usually get invited to good parties by friends

find whatever else you need to close the gaps, if what you want is not available find a suitable substitue, or have patience, chit chat with party members, go kill vt's, while looking, do a small quests, soooo many things a group of four looking to xp could do, although, this is a time when people get flaky and waste their and your time by just leaving(oh the laughs I've had)... but, this rarely happens if people know you or have partied with you before, or if you give them the question of "how long do you have, you can either inform that you guys feel liking chaining for like 4-5 hours or if you were really good you could keep those replacements coming.

I'm sorry but all this made the game so much fun for me... I'm not alone on this, but if I had to be I would.

Gosh just imagine logging on looking for a party, clicking a button and joining a group automatically. A group of randoms as well.

Edited, Jan 27th 2013 4:41pm by Ishihara
#40 Jan 27 2013 at 3:43 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, honestly I couldn't even bother to read all that, because the process of building a party is roughly as boring as explaining the steps to it.

It wasn't a matter of knowing how to do it. Most people figured out how to effectively build a party pretty quickly. That didn't make it fun or even prevent it from being frustrating.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#41 Jan 27 2013 at 3:50 PM Rating: Good
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I knew how to build my parties for XP in most level ranges.. and the parties I built were pretty effective for the most part.

That didn't make it an enjoyable activity for me OR for them.

How much fun do you seriously derive from standing around in Port Jeuno shouting for help with your AF3 quest for 12 hours (for instance)? Or for any activity OTHER than grinding? A lot of people in a lot of games bemoan the loss of the social aspect of MMOs with the introduction of party finder-like systems, but the fact of the matter is: the fun part is doing the thing, not building the party to do the thing.

And even if somehow that's the part of the game you really enjoy, there's nothing stopping you from doing it. The tools are all there. Chat channels, linkshells, friend lists... go nuts. I'll be over here doing the thing I wanted to do.
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#42 Jan 27 2013 at 4:07 PM Rating: Default
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Ok, I understand were you coming from, but was that not the biggest aspect of Square Enix's mmo? The social aspect of Final Fantasy, which has always been a single player adventure, but now they created a world were you and your friends could enjoy these great adventures together.

Imagine a game were you logged on check your retainers for sells, clicked a few buttons, did a quests. Rinse repeat a few times. Since I've dropped from XI i've tested other mmos, and in many theres no need to be social. Don't get me wrong, irl, i have my close friends and thats all i need, so im not a social whore, but I do like being that supportive, silent team member tossing refreshes and cures were needed, dispelling etc. So I loved the teamwork aspect of it, it was like no other game ive played, except pso, or fps's, but this was final fantasy and in an mmo setting.

You take people finding their own groups out of the equation, you lose a lot of that. Force us to play together, force us to create a society.

Maybe I'm just nervous though, maybe it'll be close enough to xi to hold me, from what I've heard, seen and read.

Edited, Jan 27th 2013 5:10pm by Ishihara
#43 Jan 27 2013 at 4:20 PM Rating: Decent
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How much fun do you seriously derive from standing around in Port Jeuno shouting for help with your AF3 quest for 12 hours (for instance)?


Well, for one, lol this def. wasn't somethign I did, maybe during early Zilart, lol but we were new, things weren't refined, etc. Even though I did like to log on and see a shout for something I needed, big imagination, I suppose.

Quote:
And even if somehow that's the part of the game you really enjoy, there's nothing stopping you from doing it. The tools are all there. Chat channels, linkshells, friend lists... go nuts. I'll be over here doing the thing I wanted to do.


The thing is, many people speculate an overly casual wowish crowd game were there won't be those kinds of options for people that came from their first mmo, ffxi. I'm just voicing an opinion and saying that It would be cool if everything didnt revolve around instances, you had to socialize to get things done, things took time to complete, etc.

>>>>> This <<<<<<<

I know many people disagree, but Id like if there was just one unique mmo on the market, seeing as how ffxi is pretty different now.

Edited, Jan 27th 2013 5:27pm by Ishihara
#44 Jan 27 2013 at 4:39 PM Rating: Decent
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You take people finding their own groups out of the equation, you lose a lot of that. Force us to play together, force us to create a society.


I think most can appreciate the sentiment of encouraging players to play together. But I don't think that effectively prohibiting solo play is a solution, nor do I think that nearly forcing players to group together the way FFXI did is fun. There are answers in between. Will FFXIV find them? Probably not, but frankly, FFXIV will probably barely survive at best, and more likely be a failure. How they broach this issue will probably be irrelevant in the end.

If I'm wrong, then it's not difficult to encourage people to play together without making it a pain in the ass to do so.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#45Ishihara, Posted: Jan 27 2013 at 4:51 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I feel I'm just worried, b/c if this doesn't work out, ill lose a genre I came to enjoy.
#46 Jan 27 2013 at 10:20 PM Rating: Good
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Honestly... it sounds like you want to play FFXI. Why aren't you just doing that instead of worrying about this? Smiley: wink

These should be different games. They aren't making FFXI-2 (I'd play that btw).
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#47 Jan 27 2013 at 10:37 PM Rating: Decent
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I infer his issue is that FFXI has changed so much that it no longer resembles the game it did several years ago. Which frankly, doesn't sound like it has necessarily been a change for the best. As I understand it, leveling is much faster, and that's about the best you can say about the game today compared to the days of olde.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#48 Jan 27 2013 at 11:45 PM Rating: Default
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Yeah, I actually never officially left ffxi, i didnt have the internet for like a month after jr. college, only could use it on campus, then other things, but then abyssea came out, as I was waiting for income, and never really went back.

My friend recently payed for a month and he just didnt play it all b/c it was so diff. he told me that whitegate was a ghost town, which was a shock b/c the last i played white gate and the main towns that linked to Wings of the Goddess zones were the spots... he told me port jeuno is now the new spot, ive seen a few videos of this.

I will get it though, we plan to do bstmaster in the old zones, as weve always talked about duoing it. but see, although my friend feels the same way, he gives in a bit more to games and criticizes very rarely, and i know xiv will be his priority game, as hes played 1.0 to get legacy, etc. and i doubt ill find many people online who want to hangout in the old zones with a lvl 75nin/brd/rng/rdm and do old quests and missions >.> maybe, i wont know until i reactivate my char. but in a way im still looking forward to xiv, like i did pso2, then found out it was f2p

Quote:
These should be different games. They aren't making FFXI-2 (I'd play that btw).


I just think square enix had something no other mmo had with xi, and they should've just capitalized on that and not try to reinvent the wheel, there are plenty of fast paced, speed level, jump in do something rq then log off after 10mins games out there, why make more, make a stand, just like they did with xi, critics bashed xi for all its uniqueness, i still remember adam sesslers review about the rabbit, but look at it compared to its competitor, no f2p in site,

Edited, Jan 28th 2013 12:47am by Ishihara
#49 Jan 27 2013 at 11:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Pffft. Adam Sessler.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#50 Jan 28 2013 at 1:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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I see. So you're looking for a game that is essentially FFXI from 8 years ago?

Unfortunately I don't think you're going to be able to find that game. And no new game is going to look like that, for one very simple reason.. it won't sell.

I hate to be blunt about that, but it's the truth. That game wouldn't sell enough in today's market to sustain itself. FFXIV only survived as long as it did because SE decided they could give it another go, which was a super SUPER risky decision for them as far as financial investment.

As to your other points..

Quote:
I just think square enix had something no other mmo had with xi

I'm not really sure that's true. SE had the Final Fantasy name, but the MMO mechanics they were using were normal enough by the standards of the time. Remember that at that time, their major competition and example was Everquest, a game based largely on the text-based MUDs that came before it. FFXI easily adapted some concepts from Everquest and improved some others. If they followed that same formula again it wouldn't work, because Everquest is no longer the example they have to work from.

Quote:
make a stand, just like they did with xi

You're implying here that the status quo needs to be protested. To a certain extent that's true. Making a clone of whatever successful MMO happens to be the standard of the time isn't a good idea and has really never worked. You have to improve upon design and implement fun and engaging gameplay so that people will actually want to play your game over the competition. The field looks VERY different than it did back in 2002. MMOs are no longer a niche genre, and it's much harder to find a place to fit a new product that isn't already sufficiently covered by existing offerings. In this case, the Final Fantasy name might be exactly what's needed, additionally the focus on console support helps shape a niche for SE to fill. But they can't ignore what's happened in the last 11 years. They tried that once and managed to launch the most spectacular failure in all of modern MMO gaming to date.

I'm sorry if you're looking for a game from nearly a decade ago. When it comes to MMOs, you generally just can't have that. And it is kind of sad that you can't since it's pretty much the only genre of game where that's the case.

Btw, critics of the time weren't bashing FFXI for its uniqueness. They bashed it because they didn't understand wtf it was. Most professional reviewers were aware of Everquest (in that, they knew it existed), but MMOs weren't really a genre then, and so they didn't really know how to judge it.

Also lolAdamSessler
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#51 Jan 28 2013 at 10:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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As someone who stuck with FFXI all this time post Abyssea, I just don't understand all the hate. Yeah, they yanked up the level cap to 99. Yeah, they made the exp grind less dreadful. Yeah, they obsoleted a lot of gear and shortened a lot of epeens as a result.

I think all the stuff they added in exchange more than made up for what was lost. I still have fun every day I log into XI.
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FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck. Once again a top bard on the server: Dardaubla 90 on 1/6/2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest on Lamia - Member of The Swarm and the League of Extraordinary Crafters
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