FFXIV Official Alpha Video: Combat & QuestsFollow

I only watched the vid once and couldn't really tell because I'm not familiar with the mobs, but what's the consensus on interrupted spell casts? Personally I'd rather see some sort of pushback mechanic instead of complete interrupt. Even if SE wanted to keep the ability for mobs to interrupt casting, they should set it up in a way that the spell just restarts from 0% cast instead of you having to spam whenever interrupted.

Sadly, I feel like this is the business philosophy of most MMOs today. Don't do anything especially new. Just slap some better graphics on the same game and attract the people who have no real discerning tastes when it comes to MMOs because they're new to the genre.



That's the problem. Solutions are ignored because most designers can't see past two changes. Nearly any time you change a mechanic, you have to change at least one other thing, if not every other thing. Most people are bad at making games for that very reason. They have an idea, and then they notice that some problems emerge. Rather than figure out what the solutions to those problems are, they write it off as too risky, too much work, or just unfeasible.

I'm working on a project right now that's roughly the scope of an MMO (design-wise, not nearly as bad development-wise); I know how difficult it is. It's difficult to maintain perspective at times. Impossible, arguably, for the human brain to simulate the complexities of such a game system. I can change this, but then what about this? Did I forget something? Which design tradeoffs do you make? And despite the creative infusion that comes with having a team, the process is just that much harder when you have to evaluate lots of ideas. The simplest ones can start to look the most appealing, even if they're not particularly good. A great idea comes across the table... but will the players "get it?" Will they be able to capitalize on the possibilities that this creates for them?

The zenith of game design is when the game you create allows the player to do exactly what they wanted to do, even things they didn't know they wanted to do. It's impossible to please everyone to 100% satisfaction. But here's the thing about MMOs (oh lawd, here I go): there ARE simple solutions that are ignored. And the solution that is most commonly ignored is to just let players make their choice. Most design elements exist on a spectrum. They don't have to be fixed into one location. In many types of games, you have to fix them anyway because that's all you can realistically do. But MMOs are different. They have monstrous budgets, and they have the development power to deliver "the spectrum." Not just A or Z, but everything in between.

And that was my gripe before. Most designers sit around trying to figure out, "Is K, or U better for this mechanic?" They don't stop to think, "How can I give players a choice between K and U? Maybe even N?" In most cases, this does not result in twice the design or development load. It results in having a default mode and then an exception. Or it's just variations on an iteration. Figuring out how to utilize existing template design patterns to make one set of code do lots of different things is exactly what good designers are supposed to do.



Not to mention there really isn't a robust requirement (often no requirement at all) in most game designer preparation programs to develop a theoretical understanding of "fun." Game design schools focus on the design process or the development process. They don't teach you how to design fun games, just how to operate in the workplace as a contributing team member. The average game designer's knowledge of good game design is the same as yours: "I like these features in these games; don't like those features in those games."

I'm a little surprised by the apparent support for FFXI's interrupt mechanics, which have fallen almost completely out of use in modern MMOs in favor of a pushback system.

You can definitely argue that it requires more skill than spell pushback does, which is probably true. But it also places the skill "floor" on spellcasting pretty high- that's not something you generally want to do to elementary mechanics in a game with a goal of mass appeal.

That's not to say there shouldn't be a high skill cap, to even basic mechanics; in a well-designed game, it would be a spectrum, where basic gameplay isn't punishing to the less sophisticated players, but is rewarding to the ones who work at it.

You could probably get away with something like this in a type of game like Demons Souls, where most people who buy it, know they're getting into a really tough experience from the get-go. But MMO's necessarily seek mass appeal and accessibility, and the lack-thereof was a fatal flaw in FFXI. I'm quoting Blizzard's motto here, which I hope is forgivable, that a good game should be easy to learn, but difficult to master. It's tough to say with an alpha how much of the gameplay has been finalized (which I say reluctantly, having said the same thing when testing the original alpha), but some of what we can see in this video might not be quite living up to that standard, which should be a goal for all MMO developers.

I agree with sentiment above that the global cooldown on spells seems a tad long, though it's worth mentioning that it begins at the start of spellcasting, and will likely have ended by the time you've finished casting longer spells(true in other MMO's also).

Something which would be really good to know, is whether the "invisible delay" between the end of spellcasting and the beginning of a new action, which was present in FFXI, will accompany this. That might be pretty detrimental to the pacing of combat if it did. It feels really good to go from one ability or spell straight into another(cooldowns pending), without arbitrary lockouts in between.

Pacing is itself a pretty important element too. A game that felt as slow as FFXI would probably be a hard sell in the modern MMO marketplace, though that was due at least in some part to tying the speed of gameplay to the FPS.


Overall an interesting and informative video! The game is already well above industry standards for beauty of art and sound, let's hope the gameplay ends up there too, and FFXIV is reborn as a huge success!

That is fantastic!

Favorite added

And thats why i just can't play mmos much anymore, except for a little gw2 here and there(gw2 has its own, special flaws that keep me from playing it more). What is the point of going into combat already knowing the outcome, based on your stats? Ok, i know i will take X amount of damage, but i'll do 3X amount of damage in return for the win. Great. There is very little wiggle room usually, and often that wiggle room ends up being hotfixed because it is deemed an exploit.

Consequently, in most mmos, i tend to try to use skill to overcome battles that my stats tell me are unwinnable, because thats where a lot of the fun is for me. Basically, this usually means kiting. That's it. That's really the only skill-based technique i can think of, aside from exploiting terrain or whatever (i do consider that a skill btw)and its just not enough to keep me playing.

I realize i'm mostly just complaining and not offering my own solutions. But tbh i'm really not that much of an original thinker (just a critical one)

well yeah, exactly. I could give "solutions", but they'd pretty much be a frankenstein of features/mechanics from other games that my critical brain recognizes as smart design.

For instance, i'm leaning towards a system that is sort of a hybrid between Dark Souls and GW2. I'm kind of at the point where i just want full on action based combat, with most of the customization happening in the back end. In DS for instance, you distribute points into your base stats, which affects everything from how much weight in gear you can equip, to how many spells you can learn, to how fast you can swing/run/dodge, etc etc.

In theme park mmos, I tend to always look for passive traits rather than new abilities that clog my hotbars. GW2 is great for this reason, and my frankenstein system would inculde unlocking passive traits as well. (+x crit chance, increased rate of stamina regen, etc)

Finally, to keep the actual combat fresh, i'd want plenty of unlockable combat moves. This is all assuming a controller as the default input device, and in fact as i type this i'm realizing i am sort of contradicting myself; these "moves"are really just abilities, which i just poo-poo'd. So what i'm really getting at is that I don't like hotbars. I want to keep it skill-based. Kind of like Street Fighter.

I'm sort of bleeding into another active thread here where speed of leveling and rewards per level are being discussed, but its pertinent here as well. But my main point is that i'd like more skill based action combat combined with robust backend customization.


ps. I was thinking about the dodge mechanic in GW2, and its really nothing more than a .5 second invincibility when you get down to it (you aren't actually 'dodging' projectiles with your hitbox) Not sure where i'm going with that, but i thought it was interesting how such a small trick can make combat so much more engaging.

Footage related to topic video.

Gotta say I agree with most of what was said here. It's basically XIV 1.0 combat running in a new UI with lots of flashy spell effects, but not much more. Really, the only bright spot here is the fact that it's alpha and doesn't represent(although, most likely does) what the final release version will be.

Also, on second look it does not seem that spells are interrupted by taking damage every time, just on occasion. That gives me some hope, but the fact that the GCD is still triggered doesn't bode well for the future. Depending on how the GCDs are linked across spells or schools of spells, this could be really bad when casting times and cooldowns lengthen at higher levels.

I have been saying that for years. "Hey let's repurpose these ancient word processing tools for modern day gaming". It just seems like such a ghetto, duct-taped solution to me.


tbh, i'm pretty sure the real culprit is the FPS. Yes, i know a K/M player will absolutely curbstomp a controller player, but why did John Carmack decide to design Doom like that in the first place? Its not ergonomic, as you said. It also (this is my opinion obviously) completely alienates me from the gameworld. I end up feeling like there's this weird seperation between me and the action onscreen. It reinforces the "playing a UI" experience, and decreases that feeling of being one with the game.

Anyway, so yeah i blame FPS game designers for starting this weird fad, and Blizzard for making it the de facto for MMO interface.

As for solutions, i know a lot of people were SWTORing with 360 controllers using Xpadder. Basically you can use the triggers/bumpers as modifiers by holding them down in conjunction with any other button on the device. Much like your idea. Hell, they did it in Marvel Ultimate alliance and it worked just fine. If anything, the rest of the UI becomes the bottleneck in this type of scenario.

Interesting and topical sidenote: the Qwerty keyboard is tremendously outdated, since it was designed with old timey typewriters in mind. Apparently the Qwerty setup somehow minimized jamming of the mechanical arms. The Dvorak layout, which you've probably never heard of because people seem to prefer tradition over smart design, grouped keys based on frequency of use and resulted in 30% faster typing. World record holding typists (who cares, i know) all used Dvorak layout keyboards.

The thing that bothers me is that let's say, hypothetically, keyboard and mouse is just objectively better regardless of the UI. That's only because gamepads have never bothered to borrow from the keyboard features. If you look at a standard controller, there is TONS of room for additional buttons. Not hard to tack a mousewheel on either if it's so superior. Personally I prefer a UI designed away from the point and click mechanics because I actually don't think the mouse is a good tool for it. I mean, I just love for one hand to be glued to a 2D plane while I'm playing my game. I'd rather have an infrared emitter/sensor configuration, which comes standard on the Wii. Wazzat?

Drives me crazy how people just absolutely must have a mouse because it's so easy, but point and click technology that doesn't tether you to a desk? Why, that's a bunch of gimmicky nonsense!

Okay thats it. Let's form our own company and make games.

I did find that switching to trackball made K/M a bit more bearable btw. It feels more like a controller, in that you can hold it anywhere you damn well please. And its great for that circle strafing business that pvpers go nuts about.

I took his point that they needed someone to screen the demo videos for American audiences, because clearly Japanese players and American players look for different things. We have a much more robust MMO market here. What cuts it for the average JP player is old hat to the average US player, and I think they're spot on that SE really needs some perspective from the U.S.. I know they're trying, and they look at other games, but clearly they're out of touch with why certain features work and others don't. And I've been saying that since 2002-- SE's approach to game design is trial and error, with not nearly enough trial. They must be big believers of the iterative process, because it's like they really don't put much forethought into what they put out anymore.

I mean, I really want them to succeed. Badly enough that I would pay them to let me consult for them (and at this rate they probably need the money). They have no shortage of people willing to tell them what US players want, but it seems like they're actually not very well connected to the message, even with the forums and all. They seem like they're perpetually behind the times and they don't even know why.

To be fair, they're not the only ones. Have you looked at that new Oblivion MMO by Bethesda? Even from what little I've seen, that's obviously going to be a disaster. And when you get down to it, their plan is the same as FFXIV's: Make a completely standard MMO. If it didn't work for BioWare with SWTOR, making a standard MMO with a really great story system, why will it work for these other industry titans? Answer: it won't.

No, i agree that his intention with the statement was exactly what you said, it just came out of his mouth sounding so...wrong. In fact, it took Hilary (the valley girl with the hair who laughs and says "i don't know" a lot) of all people to put his thought into a sentence that made sense.

But yeah, another point the hosts made(and i sadly agree with) is that SE is like, 3 years behind the rest of the mmo scene (i'd say more like 7). On the other hand, Yoshi mentioned that he plays Rift and GW2, and i was hoping we'd see some of that influence bleed over, at the very least.

The Elder Scrolls MMO...yeah. It does have 3 faction pvp and a control scheme supposedly reminiscent of Oblivion/Skyrim, but we all know its still going to be the same old crap repackaged in an Elder Scrolls skin, with one or two new, "revolutionary" features.

Yeah, what i was REALLY hoping for was some actual innovation, but i'd settle for a few dynamic elements borrowed from Rift/GW is what i think i meant. Look at me talking like i've already played the game.



I was hoping you were. Damnit. My degrees are in Fine Arts and Digital Art for Game Design.

Programmers are the drummers of the software world. Never enough to go around.

Edited, Dec 9th 2012 3:43am by Llester

GBTV used to have a channel devoted to XIV. It was up and running months prior to release and he and the co-host were pumped for it. They apparently both played XI and were excited for the new game, but the final episode pretty much summed it up. I guess it could be called childish but honestly, if I hadn't been lucky enough to play the alpha(lucky in the sense that it was enough of a sour taste to keep me from forking out money), I probably would have done the same or worse with a CE.


Couldn't agree more. Most people interested in the game at this point have already been exposed to the fact that the initial launch failed and many of those have already tried it. Even if someone had never been exposed to XI or XIV 1.0, this video is really pretty boring.

Click a mob. Click a spell. Wait 4 seconds. Click another(or the same) spell. Wait another 4 seconds. Wake Winter up and tell him to wipe the drool off his chin. Repeat.

I suppose it could be offensive to suggest that American's would do a better job, but we all know SE can do a better job. How and why would you follow up on the blockbuster final CS from 1.0 with stuff like this? The official trailer for ARR really needs to deliver or people probably won't be willing to even give the game a chance at all, much less a second chance if they're considering returning.

Or they could just design controllers with more buttons. I mean, pick up a controller nearby. How many of your fingers are you actually using?

As for your mouse, it's not necessarily any more efficient than a D-stick. You have to move your entire hand around to make a mouse do what a D-stick can do with a thumb. I hardly call that efficient. The only difference is that D-sticks aren't optimized for the user interface in the MMOs. That's more a design issue for the developers than a problem with the peripheral.

@FilthMcNasty
So that video pretty much sums up the negative impressionnewcomers to the game *may* get.
As for me, I did like what I see, but I am not a newcomer. I've been following the apparent progress
of this game for over 2 years now, so I am biased to take a second, third, and even forth look at
everything, simply because I am "hooked". However, if this was NOT Final Fantasy, and if it was
NOT a game that allowed me to play with the whole world, I doubt I would be impressed by what
I see, as I usually do not select the games I play by polygon counts and shader complexity.
At this point, I think it's o.k. to wonder about what this game is really going to bring to the table.

- Good graphics? - Definitely.
- Engaging combat? - Umm-humm.
- A good storyline? - Umm-humm.

I guess we'll see. But I remember that - despite the fact that even those games did not manage to
retain their initial success later - when I first saw promotion stuff about TERA, Rift, and SWTOR, the
classes and their mechanics simply looked snappy, interesting, and most of all: unique and fun.
Mercenary. Berserker. Riftstalker. Sith Consular. Templar. And each with it's own cool (sounding)
abilities: Riftwalk. Force lightning. Sattelite strikes. Inventive stuff. Lots of snares, debuffs, decoys,
switches, conditional abilities. Even if it's just the basically same stuff every other MMO has in another
color. And we get: Fire. Water. Stone. Double-stab-speat attack. 3-stab-spear attack. With lots of
explosions that seem in no way related to the actual abilities being used.

For those complaining about keyboards.... Look, some of us have wrist problems and controllers and mice just don't hack it for long term usage. I have a special ergonomic mouse that cost me a lot of money, and it still hurts for me to use it over a long period of a time. The humble keyboard doesn't cause me wrist pain like a controller or a mouse does, and I can use it for hours on end. The only bit of my body that hurts after a long PC gaming session is my neck, because I have such bad posture.

What's wrong with including the keyboard in the planned UI interface? I believe the mouse, a controller, and a keyboard should all be viable options. As long as someone has a choice, it's okay.

seriously this first part. Where's the controller with buttons all over the bottom, for your other fingers? It really could work.


As for the D-stick vs mouse thing, yes I agree if we're talking standard issue mouse, but a trackball puts all that movement right back in your thumb again. That and that alone is what allowed me to play SWTOR for as long as I did. And even then, it was really only the PvP/friends that kept me playing. Tbh, SWTOR was the closest to XI in terms of community that I've seen so far. Probably because all the SWG vets came out of their coldsleep capsules to play it, for like a year. Now they're all playing SWG-EMU haha.

edit: GODDAMNIT I just had the best idea ever! A trackball controller! Replace the right stick with a trackball and it solves a lot of these issues. Then I had to go google it and ruin everything. http://trackballcontroller.com/

of course several individuals have been working on their own versions of this for years. Bleh. Well good news is the product exists, albeit in prototype formats. But you can buy it. So thats good news. But im depressed now because for a split second i thought i actually had something new come out of my brain. moooooving on.

edit asgain: there's also this: http://www.razerzone.com/minisite/onza

Edited, Dec 9th 2012 3:08pm by Llester

Edited, Dec 9th 2012 3:42pm by Llester

Edited, Dec 9th 2012 3:48pm by Llester

Perhaps, but you can't deny that it's probably the reaction just about anyone who wasted $80 on the CE did or at least, wanted to do.

As for the statement about XI, I wouldn't doubt it. Then again, the same could be said for most of the population. We're talking about a game where people face certain directions and only craft during certain moon phases. We're also talking about a game whose mechanics defined the manner in which players were 'allowed' to participate. We're talking about the same game that had you standing still, waiting.


For the same reason, I don't see why some people find the comment about the possibility of the video being better if it were produced by a NA company. My theory is that people who are offended don't realize we're talking about a company who went 8 years before releasing their own official forum. A company who, up until that point, was tight-lipped about the most trivial details. This type of player probably thinks they're blessed to be exposed to the wonder that is eastern game development.

I guess we're just spoiled in the west. We want explanations for changes, answers to questions and regular feedback from developers to assure us that our concerns for a game, a service that we pay for, is actually providing service.

If there were one thing that you could take away from the shortcomings of XIV 1.0... one phrase that should make you shudder when you read it...

Spoilerwell, its still Alpha

Trackball is definitely better than D-pad just because you don't have to keep your thumb on it to maintain the cursor placement, but I was just using it to illustrate how a basic feature can work. Anyway, what I want is one of these bad boys (you can see some similar models in one of the pictures on the top row)... with a trackball (or two, for good measure) and of course, more buttons, along the backside and all. Now that's a peripheral I can learn to love.

For me, the problem with a controller is that it doesn't resolve the chat issues at all. You have to pick it up and put it down every time you have something to say. And those text-pads you can snap on? Feh. Nothing breaks game immersion for me like having to send my party a text message.

I know a lot of what keeps us down with new peripherals is that people are afraid to try new things. Remember the reception that the N64 controller got? Meanwhile, the PS3 is essentially using the same model as the PS1, and no one has Bob to say about it. But there are better peripherals than what we've got available, for sure, for all the people who are actually willing to take 5 minutes to learn how to use them. Which of the people I know, is actually a pretty robust group of techies. I mean, how many gamers already buy keyboards that look like a spaceship dashboard?

Edited, Dec 9th 2012 5:05pm by Kachi

It's good to see that there are additional effects on the attacks. I hope they aren't all little, incremental bonuses, though. There's still potential for the combat to have significant strategic elements, but strategic play requires difficult, meaningful choices. That's seldom the case when the attack does damage, "oh and 10% to something else."