This game is a utter joke.. seriously.Follow

you got to remember this is not! i repeat! not! FFXI there was sooo much down time in FFXI and still is on some things apart from EXPing, and think back just how long it took SE to Make FFXI what it is now.

Seriously? $1500? If you're meaning a laptop, fine, but I completely rebuilt my desktop for about $700 a year ago and it makes mincemeat out of FFXIV. Granted, the game doesn't look all that fantastic (it's not hard to beat WoW, but the detail draw distance is pretty terrible, no matter what settings you change), but to suggest a $1500 PC is insufficient to run this game well is ridiculous.

That being said, to stick on topic - FFXIV isn't a complete joke, but it's a long way from being ready. Even with the new development team, there are a lot of issues that take too long to get fixed. I mean, Ul'dah's inn hasn't been working since release; why is this such a complex issue? Let alone a myriad of balance issues, lack of content issues, performance issues, etc. etc.

Now my hope is that the reason a lot of this isn't getting fixed is that they're re-designing it all from the ground up, in a modular way, that makes it easy to add content. I'm convinced that this was a massive problem in FFXI, though I never saw SE come right out and say "Yeah, our engine wasn't built right for this, and it caused issues."

But now, they have more experience; now, they have more perspective. This game needs to be built in a way where a couple of content developers can build a whole new map with functioning questlines in a week or so, not a month or two. If they succeed in designing it that way, then I think with time, the bugs will be worked out, the performance issues will become a thing of the past (PC power increases alone will fix those), and content will be plentiful, since it will be so easy to generate. If they cripple themselves again, though, I think the game is going to deteriorate very quickly, because I suspect most people don't have a lot of patience left for easily avoided screw-ups.

The point I was making is that they have to demonstrate that they've learned from it. If they don't, the game's slow revival will fizzle out, 2.0 will be a disaster, and XIV will rapidly die off. If they succeed, it might end up being relevant in a few years.

Two things...

If it had taken you 3 days to grind from level 40 to 41 would you have felt like it was an accomplishment because it took so long or because you actually got something that made the grind worthwhile?

WoW isn't a valid comparison because there is actually an endgame for it. The necessity for grinding levels is replaced by grinding rep/tokens/gear ect. because there is actually something to do when you reach the level cap. The same cannot be said for FFXIV.

It sounds like there is a diversity of players here between those who found the challenge of FFXI appealing and charming and those who willingly embrace casual content. Personally, I fall on the FFXI side. I wouldve been happy if they HAD just made FFXI-2. Gone are the days of desperate planning to fight incredibly tough bosses. The best part about MMOs is that no amount of internet research will guarantee you a victory. Once upon a time, it truly did come down to skill.

It's probably dangerous to say this, but unlike other games MMOs required (or should still require) more than just your ability to turn on the game and spend time in the world. They should challenge you to develop a sense of leadership acumen, social skills, and the ability to compromise. I loved that about FFXI. Some fights simply would not let you pass without a few proper party setups. Some fights were brutal in their requirement of an RDM, WHM, and BRD trio. If you didnt know any, you either didnt participate in that fight or were forced to make friends.

A world of give and take forced people who did want to achieve to give back and help others. Today it seems like everyone can solo their way to 50 given enough time. What's the point of a social game if you have so much solo-able content?

I think you make a solid point. There should be a full spectrum of expediency and soloability. Instead I think there are more like two polar extremes. You either destroy everything and level way too fast in a full party, or level far too slow soloing. It you're in a balanced group you should be able to acquire XP faster, but if you opt to solo it you should make decent XP, but it won't compare to what you could make in a party.

Personally, I think partying has other value that people discount. While leveling up to 75 in FFXI, I had an opportunity to build new friendships that later played pivotal roles in my ability to take part in end-game activities. The needs of various parties differs throughout one's journey to 75. Between 60 and 65, Monks get a weaponskill that created a magic burst in demand for partying. At 70, the preference is multi-MNK parties for bones. I made various friends all through my journey to the top. I think The Old Republic blew it big time on this. There is absolutely zero reason to join a guild until you get to end-game. The path to level 50 is so quick and fast that the community doesn't have time to develop. People are more focused on personal (and private) progress rather than building relationships and alliances that might come in handy later.

MMOs are a great equalizer. Everyone knows of the whiny guy or girl who sits on a common area begging for help for every thing. A few are even intuitively aware that said whiner doesn't lift a finger for others. Other people know that the challenge Mr or Mrs. whiner is begging for help on is something perfectly soloable without a great amount of skill, but it just requires a miniscule amount of patience and perhaps the effort to read about the quest on the internet first.

There's a reason why those people don't advance very fast despite the time they put into the game and the fact that their toon is comparably equivalent in power to any other toon. They're missing something more. Something intrinsically required to success in MMOs, which for lack of a better term is the ability to have a socially accepted presence.

If MMOs strip away the need for developing that skill or worse only pose that need in a select few gates where everyone is congregating, it might as well be a singleplayer game. I would argue that even stalwart casual players don't want to play an MMO for a completely solo'd experience.

Acheron

I don't think that's quite right. The "if you build an MMO, the community will come" method doesn't really exist.

SE already built FFXI's community through their previous Final Fantasy titles. People came to play a Final Fantasy game online for the first time (think of all the Sephiroths and Yunas walking around in 2003) and if it wasn't for that name recognition, I don't think FFXI would have done as well as it did.

Second of all, developers absolutely have a hand in shaping the community far more than just handing everyone a hammer and letting them have at it. As rudimentary as they were, the friendlist, search, party, and linkshell features combined with the need to group to make progress combined with encouraging people to stick with one character (who could have many jobs) all helped create a stable community where people could find each other by name. This didn't just happen by accident. The game was designed to get people to interact in this manner and to form friendships to accomplish their goals.

It's not to say that the community couldn't develop in unpredictable ways, like how FFXIAH sprung up to SE's surprise. But, there has to be more to it than just making a bunch of random "tools" and hoping it all works out somehow. Without a solid foundation in order for a community to be built, people will come for the Final Fantasy brand, but what will they be staying for?

It is practically impossible to develop a MMO and play Community police at the same time, it just does not work that way, and it should not(Atleast on a successful one with millions of players), also FFXI community had nothing to do with it's brand name, FF has sold up to 100 million copies, yet fFXI capped at 500K! And it did as good as Everquest did at the same time, so to say that FFXI was successful because it had final fantasy on it's name is just false, it was an upgraded version of EQ, and did practically equally good for it's time.

I found Long-Bowed Chariot extremely difficult after Salvage was released. I found Salvage difficult in general and it took me a long time with our team to figure out how to manage him. Now once we had him down, it was a quick 4min fight every time, but for a long while it was wipe after wipe after wipe. If he was easy for you, then I guess you are just a better player.

I will concede claiming is annoying, especially when you know the playing field isn't level. Half the room is using 3rd party software to cheat a claim. But I also think FFXI benefitted from having astronomically challenging setups like that. Absolute Virtue being another good example. The presence of said fights/NMs/loot gives everyone, casual and hardcore alike, something to dream about. If Nidhogg was an instanced fight and everyone had a shot at a ridill, Ridill wouldn't be worth sh*t. Not everyone is meant to have a ridill. It requires more than just simply being in the party when it drops, same for the relic weapons.

FFXIclopedia did the math and showed it takes 2yrs to get a relic weapon. I don't know anyone who'd want to wait 2yrs. The people who own relic weapons had to go beyond to get it. They either bought gil, which is something I wish could've been stopped, or they had to build consensus among the people they played with that they should be the person to get the ancient currency to have one. THat kind of stuff is brilliant. If XI gets to the point where they're handing out relic weapons or simply making it a manner of "doing your dailies" for 6mos (i.e. TOR) then I think they've lost something.

If that same poll were taken here is what I'd say to those people:

1. Level your own bard or find something else in that variety to do.
2. Find a different group, because the people in your group obviously aren't committed to winning, they're just committed to themselves. (Another function of social skills being necessary in an MMO)
3. Level a ninja and a Paladin. Some missions require a meat shield others require a blink tank, still others require a trio of DDs. That's another brilliant point of XI and frankly another brilliant point of the job system inherent in FF games. TOR and WoW both don't have that.


I think casual content for the sake of broadening your experience in an MMO is very good content. If a game was just a matter of tough leveling and intense battles I don't think it'd be a good game. What I see though is a lot of casual content and then "casual" leveling and "casual" HNM fights. That way everyone gets a chance to fight Nidhogg. Well, I hate to say it, but not everyone should fight Nidhogg, if you want the experience go do a KSNM99. If you want "Nidhogg" you gotta jump in the hellion pit with the rest of the rabble and "play the game". I hated half the mother truckers camping Nidhogg, almost all were notorious cheaters, hacks, grievers, and unpleasant personalities to even play with. They epitomize the Penny-Arcade "Fvckwad" on the internet. But if you can hack in that group and prove you deserve the drop, well...maybe you really do.



Edited, Apr 10th 2012 10:41pm by AchtheMonk

I disagree with this.

Developers make "casual" content because it allows the users of the game to experience that content. HNMs in FFXI such as Nidhogg didn't have much appeal with many people I know, even among FFXI players I knew very few who ever had any desire to get into it (when it was a world spawn that is, which it seems is what you're referring to). The time requirements, the pop conditions, the activity itself is something that appeals to a very limited amount of players. Aside from that, you yourself don't have very kind words to say about the people participating in these events. Why should it be required that you associate yourself with, in your words, "cheaters, hacks, grievers, and unpleasant personalities" and put up with a very unappealing and restrictive activity when the developers have the choice to offer alternative methods of experiencing content and rewards that are not so restrictive and appeal to a wider audience?

I also find it odd that you say those who want to fight Nidhogg must "play the game" while criticizing other, more accessible methods of content. Casual methods, as in, ones that allow a wide range of people to jump in and play, is playing a game. 24+ hour world spawn HNMs involve more waiting and less gameplay than any casual method could ever involve. I am not advocating that every activity should be soloable and done in 10 minutes or less, but I believe the old FFXI world spawn HNMs are not the type of content that can attract a large number of players. It only appeals to those who both have the time to dedicate to them, and would rather dedicate their time to them than doing something else. The MMO market has some very appealing games out there right now, I think developers would do well to focus on content that the majority of people find enjoyable and want to play in the face of competition.

Edited, Apr 11th 2012 1:39am by Susanoh