Snoll Fight whoa'sFollow

ok, step one. get a mercuial kris for the drk to borrow and make sure hes got capped dagger to 60 at least. have him souleater 2 hour while hasted on snoll tzar. that alone will seriously rape him. have two of the rdm chainspell nuke fire spells while the last chainspell curagas. dont worry about hate as the drk is going to have it for pretty much the whole fight if hes competent. have the whm haste, try to have them cap divine and banish nuke as the rdm curing is pretty much going to have curing covered, though the whm can help some if needed. screw pld, go as a DD job, whichever is best outfitted. that should almost certainly kill snoll tzar. if you need more time, get a couple salts and have the whm use first one as theyre going to be the least useful in this fight, thanks to the rdm. sorry whm, not your fault. after that have the pld in his DD job use the second, as snoll is kinda resistant to melee, so he will be doing the least damage most likely. if you have any more salts and if by some miracle snoll isnt dead yet have one of the nuking rdm use it, whoever has lower mp. that should kill him >.>b oh yes, and barblizzara, he spams an AoE ice move. our drk went with the kris and did almost 3000 damage to snoll in half a minute, our mnk nearly did as much thanks to almost full merits hehe. we kinda went lolsnoll and won first try no problem. but please dont have the pld come as that job, you need DD more than anything else.

The equation is very simple : Snoll has 9K HP, and you have to kill it in 45 seconds. You also have to stay alive during that time: the snoll crit hit me for 500+ @_@.

Slot 1 : DRK - Your good old 'suicide' Guillotine routine. Use I.Wing at start

Slot 2 : The Dragoon 2 Hour will do more damage than the WAR, and also lower the defense of the mob. Use I.Wing at start

Slot 3 : RDM : Chainspell Fire II

Slot 4 : BLU - Stun

Slot 5 : WHM - salt user, Divine Seal Curaga III + Benediction

Slot 6 : RDM : Chainspell Fire II





Edited, Apr 1st 2007 10:44pm by Anomandarake

Have the rdm use a salt right at the very start, then have the whm use a salt after the first wears off. Remember the use time and duration are both 15 seconds, so it'll take a bit. And yeah, I think drg might be better for triple jump + self SC + triple jump and hate erases. Just make sure the drg's call wyvern timer resets before you enter, so you can get some more wyvern dmg after the drg eats the first one.

I'd say DRK, WAR, RDM, RDM, RDM, WHM
DRK and WAR for their excellent burst melee damage and WAR/NIN can tank at the same time, 3 RDMs for their chainspell nuke and WHM to keep everyone alive. Odds are you probably wont even need to use salt.

300 dmg per spell, with chainspell active, is how much dmg...? On a monster with 6k hp...? And with the bottomless mp pool known as convert + stoneskin...?

mob has 9k hp about, with the info of guess from erecia's guide (which i trust wholeheartedly) being lazy and not checking that site again, I could be wrong, but I remember erecia saying 9k. thanks. and remember this is time based. 2k dmg in 15 seconds from 300tp >> ws >> ic wing >> ws far outweighs a slow 300 trickling in like a small stream. Post above? they say about 1.7k, and thats pretty fast dmg too. people that go rdm and win have skill. end of story. the rest of us take 2 melee/sam. thanks.

I don't know about you, but every melee I've seen in the snoll fight was lackluster at best. I don't know why, but they couldn't even break a thousand. A good RDM should average 1.8k-2.2k depending on how fast the rest of your party is. My gearset was even generously lazy; I only had a few INT pieces and a NQ fire staff. Even a crappy RDM will guarantee at least 1.2k damage. I don't know where you get your numbers, but I'm quite convinced that a crappy RDM > crappy melee for this fight. A good melee may be better than a good RDM, I'm not sure, but good players are so rare that I'd say just go with the RDM.

I don't see how a mage with blink + stoneskin would die fast compared to a melee with third-eye as their only defense. You shouldn't have any problems as long as gravity is on. Melees must be close in order to do damage, whereas mages can avoid contact by casting from a distance. With chainspell a RDM never even has to get close; instant spell casts allow them to move about freely while still doing damage. A SMN really shouldn't have a problem, since their damage is hate free. A BLM may have issues though. They need to find a way to avoid drawing hate, because they won't be able to cast without fears of interrupt or going out of range.

My damage slightly beat out the BLM and was also greater than the SMN's three astral flows. As long as they elemental seal gravity and get convert off, everything should go quite well. BLM and SMN can also lose loads of damage if they screw up. Missing a nuke or a bloodpact will easily cost you 600+ damage. I guess this is comparable to a RDM that can't get convert off.

Personally we used 2xRDM, SAM/RNG, DRK, BLM, SMN for the fight, and just bounced hate back and forth between the RDMs. You only need to lose hate for half a second to blast a convert + cure and continue nuking. This instantly pulls hate and allows the second RDM to do the same. The only danger is getting hit by TP moves, which you should spread out for to minimize casualties.

It has a lot to do with the type of melee you're talking about. SAM for instance kicks ass in here from what I've seen, and a lot of this is because they can freely Meditate up to 300 TP pre-fight without worrying about any time restrictions, as well as whip out even more WSs with their 2hr. Hasso/Seigan probably helps them excel even more now in this fight. Other melees do not have the option of using Opo Necklace for TP (it's a level 61 item).



And yeah, you absolutely don't want to run around if you pull hate as RDM (Gravity on the Snoll is still a good idea though). This fight is way too dependent on WSs (and Astral Flows if you have a SMN) landing; any one of them missing due to OoR can cost you the match. If the Snoll is still a ways from dying, don't just continue to nuke blindly after you've pulled hate, he will knock you down in no time and a lot of your Chainspell/MP will be wasted.

If nothing else, you can at least ghetto tank for your party, even though you shouldn't be holding hate for very long. Stand there and observe his attacks, and recast Blinks and Stoneskins (priority should be on Stoneskin, because he'll easily knock that down with one landed hit) as necessary to stay alive; hopefully another mage will be backing you up in the meantime if necessary. Those buffs will make you a lot more durable than you might think if you can cast them instantly and repeatedly. Chainspell Power, yo.

Edited, Apr 15th 2007 5:13am by Fynlar

Member #1: PLD, MNK, BRD
Member #2: THF
Member #3: RDM, NIN
Member #4: BLM, SMN, BLU
Member #5: BLM, SMN
Member #6: SMN, WHM

If you're confident in your team's ability to deal damage (i.e. they aren't gimpy) I would have the first person go PLD. Otherwise, have him MNK.

Everyone else should be THF, RDM, BLU, BLM, SMN.

If #1 is PLD, I would Voke/Flash, Sentinel and then do some healing as needed until at least a fair portion of your MP is spent, then use Invincible when needed to keep hate. Cover as a last resort if you see someone really ripping hate. I think this would allow for better hate keeping overall rather than just using Invincible right off the bat, because taking 0 damage for most of the start of the fight.

THF is kinda iffy in this fight but at least he'll have Assassin. My best advice to the THF is... before engaging/aggroing the Snoll, have the THF trigger SA and TA and wait for about 30-40 seconds so that they get a chance to recharge until about 20-30 seconds until reuse. BLU could try to act as a trick partner to SATA onto the PLD, but this could eat up too much time or be too dangerous. If anything just make sure you TA the tank before the effects wear off, even if SA won't land properly. This will allow the THF to be able to use SA and TA again during the fight once more before time runs out. This will help maximize his potential a tad. If you somehow rip hate for any appreciable amount of time Perfect Dodge will probably save you, but I don't see this happening.

SMN is only going to get off one Astral Flow regardless of what he does (unless you use more than one salt, which I generally never recommend for any setup), therefore it is not necessary for him to burn it immediately at the start of the fight. Let him use up some MP for healing before using Astral Flow (which will wipe all his MP anyway), because after the Astral Flow he will mostly be dead weight (might as well keep the avatar out and meleeing). Don't fully rely on him as a healer, Cure 3 will not compensate for a rampaging Snoll Tzar. If using a PLD most of the damage will be absorbed by Invincible/Sentinel. If using a MNK you'll probably just be Curebombing the MNK constantly. In such a case the RDM and BLU may need to contribute an occasional heal. Fully buff the party as much as you can before fighting (Aerial Armor and Earthen Ward first because they have 15 minute duration; then Shining Ruby, Dream Shroud, and Noctoshield before fighting because these last shorter.)

RDM and BLM and BLU should all be unloading. BLM can throw a Stun in if someone's death is imminent; BLU should probably be throwing in Head Butts wherever possible.

Edited, Apr 18th 2007 4:01pm by Fynlar

Sounds like a reasonable plan. However, with the removal of exp loss in CoP BCs, especially since none of you have experience with that BC, I highly recommend going in and giving it a shot without use of any meds, any salts, or any 2-hours. You'll probably wipe (if not, great), but you'll see the sorts of annoying things the snoll can do, and get a vague idea of how damaging everyone is. Then you can tailor your existing strategy with your now-firsthand experience, and go in for a real run where you use salts and 2-hours.

Just some suggestions,

Vilurum has a very good suggestion for your first attempt. This fight can give even very good groups fits because of the fickleness of it. Trying it without using any 2hr and items is a good idea to just get a feel for it. No amount of helpful hints here can substitute for first hand experience.

I would recommend player 1 go either WAR or RDM. While NIN can rival WAR as DD at end game, at level 60 a WAR should have little problem pumping out more damage in a short period of time than a NIN. Second, a PLD can have trouble holding hate in this fight due to the large amount of damage being done in a short period of time. A ninja pretty much has no chance to act as a tank in this fight. If you want a melee heavy party, have person 1 go WAR. If you want a magic heavy party have player 1 go RDM. Either should work based on the other members you have available. I'd probably base it off what player 1 feels most comfortable with playing.

Make sure the RDMs realize to pile on as much Elemental Magic skill possible as first priority followed by intelligence gear. With the right gear, a RDM can get elemental magic skill up to an A/B+ level at level 60 so resists shouldn't be much of a problem.

As for yourself as the BRD, the RDM will likely be Chainspell nuking. The RDM will benefit much more from having a SV intelligence Etude than a SV ballad 1. Also, if player 1 does go RDM, I would put more priority on getting Fire Threnody on the Snoll than Elegy.

Finally, make sure the people in your group know to let mages get out of the cutscene first after winning. The DoT effect the snoll can use will kill people very fast even outside the BC if it isn't erased/cure spammed.

Well, my CoP static went up against Snoll Tzar last night and got pwned.

PT setup was:
PLD
THF
BLM
BLM
RDM (me)
WHM

I pulled with ES Gravity, PLD used Provoke > Invincible @start going into Sentinel after Invincible wore, THF & PLD popped iWings and did Vorpal Blade > TA Dancing Edge > Detonation, I started Chainspelling Fire2, and BLM began planned nuke cycle of ES Flare > Firaga2 > Fire2 > Manafont > Flare > Firaga2 > Fire2.

Each person had a salt, and we set up salt order as: WHM > BLM > BLM > THF > RDM > PLD. The first 4 salts landed as they were supposed to, but then I stupidly Converted with Frost on me and promptly died. Reraised, threw out my salt. PLD had pretty much gotten one-shotted earlier by Hiemal Storm. Party wiped with Snoll @20%HP. BLM's couldn't Stun really, because they were always in the middle of casting some Fire spell. It was also late Windsday, and Iceday was coming soon so we were kinda rushing ourselves and only did one practice run.

In hindsight, it seems to me our downfall was that we were gimping our damage by trying to prolong the fight too much by having everyone use a salt. Especially the BLM's and I, since for the 12 seconds we're frozen "casting" the salt and the 8 or so seconds of item bind afterwards we're obviously not doing damage. So for our next run, I'm thinking of having only WHM > THF > PLD use salts and have BLM's and I focus on spellcasting. Maybe even have THF & PLD do Fusion SC to MB Flare on. We're also adjusting our static meeting time to go in on Firesday. =P

@Fynlar: You gave some great advice that I wish we would have followed O:. WHM will come SMN next time, like you suggested, to add more damage with Astral Flow. But, she wants to Astral Flow @start and Astral Flow again @end since team is still wanting to use multiple salts. I guess we're lacking a little confidence now in having enough time to do enough damage, though. But, I like your idea of having SMN buff/heal for the early fight and save Astral Flow towards the end when MP gets lower.

Also still thinking of having PLD come MNK after all, but not sure if this is such a good idea if no WHM to Curebomb him.

If anyone has any other words of wisdom or strategy advice it would be much appreciated.

Thanks~!

Edited, Apr 23rd 2007 1:42pm by ShibuyaOnShiva

I understand where the SMN is coming from, but I don't recommend ever using more than one salt, honestly (and strangely enough, the person probably best suited to using this salt, if any, is probably the SMN). By using too many salts you are gimping your damage potential too much. If this fight were like the "3, 2, 1..." BCNM where the bomb doesn't fight back, it wouldn't be an issue, but adding 15 more seconds to this fight comes at the price of the Snoll beating on you for 15 more seconds, and you've seen now why that can be problematic. If the fight goes longer than a minute (45+15 seconds), you are likely dead/dying anyway.

If you cannot kill it in 60 seconds, instead of working in more salts into your repertoire, you should be looking at how to up your damage. A skillchain, even a sh*tty one, can add some decent damage in this fight, especially with a setup like yours, due to the prospect of multiple magic bursts. The RDM can get up to 3 bursts on one chain with Chainspell up if he's lucky and times it precisely (you'll need spells to land right at the start and end of the MB window in order to squeeze in 3, but 2 should be easily doable). Don't forget that the SMN can even MB with Ifrit's Inferno, as well (and if he's only getting to use it once, might as well use it when it counts, no?)

Seems like the best way to do your chain is Red Lotus Blade > Cyclone for Fusion. The nice thing about these WSs is that they will NOT miss, because they are elemental... thus you can be certain that the skillchain will happen. Alternatively, if you're looking for a good way to make use of the THF's starting TA at the start of the fight (like how I recommended to "ready" his SA and TA 30-40 seconds or so before starting the fight so that the THF would be able to use one or both of those abilities twice before time runs out) and the THF has /SAM available, you can have the THF start with TA Viper Bite on the PLD (which also won't miss due to Assassin, if planted correctly), then the PLD uses Red Lotus Blade for Liquefaction, then THF does Icarus Wing + Cyclone for Fusion. (SA nor TA will stack with Cyclone so no need to worry about that.) Double the fire SC, double the fun. Make sure the THF doesn't do Cyclone TOO soon after RLB, such to allow the mages a chance for MBs on the Liquefaction, before creating Fusion. Have your group practice on some weaker mobs to get the timing down if necessary. Since you don't want to have the THF burning Icarus Wings on practice mobs, you as RDM can take the place of his Viper Bite by using something like Shining Blade (another never-miss WS). Make sure the THF is running toward the Snoll while using Cyclone, because it's a possibility that the mages might start stealing hate with their MBs at this time. Don't want to trigger an OoR if you can help it. Positioning as I said doesn't matter for Cyclone, so it doesn't matter what way the Snoll is facing or where other people are standing.



Bad luck. Kinda like how some parties have to rely on the Snoll using Berserk early in order to have a shot at killing it in time, and he just decides to never use it and you time out as a result, despite giving it all you've got. Not much you can do about this because I don't think Invincible or Sentinel or even Utsusemi blocks this (I could be wrong). Just gotta pray that the PLD survives it with enough HP, or that it's close enough to death that you will be able to defeat it without the PLD, or that he doesn't use it at all - given enough attempts, you'll eventually get a run that fits one of these conditions.



You would likely have to devote more of your Chainspell energies to healing him if this happens, which would cut into your own damage potential. It could still probably be done this way, but I honestly think PLD is a better choice here because it will, overall, keep your party alive the longest. Tanks often get overlooked for a fight like this, but when you aren't loaded with jobs like SAM/RNG and can't zerg the Snoll in 15 seconds, a tank is somewhat important to keep everyone alive long enough to do their damage. The Sentinel upgrade just makes them very awesome for this fight, he just got unlucky with the Snoll's TP. Same thing could happen to anyone.

You still did fine for a first attempt. Just, try not to Convert kill yourself again, the loss of damage there is probably what sealed your fate. :p

If you get Frosted before you Convert, consider redoing your Stoneskin beforehand to be safe (and throw yourself a Cure 3 afterward before resuming your attack). And do try to set up a Liquefaction/Fusion, the added damage there from MBs plus you not dying from Convert ought to be enough to win the fight assuming the PLD doesn't get one-shotted early again. I don't know what MDB/-m.dmg% gear is available at 60 but you might consider having the PLD wear whatever sort of that kind of gear he can get while Invincible is in effect (not like his defense is helping him any then).

Edited, Apr 23rd 2007 7:06pm by Fynlar

Edited, Apr 23rd 2007 7:11pm by Fynlar

Opo-opo necklaces are 61, you can't use them in this BC.

Also, if a SMN uses astral flow before you actually engage the Snoll, I think you might be able to get 2 AF BPs in with only one salt. Open with it, salt, med/heal until BP timer is nearly up again, AF just as your time is running out. If you have a PLD and a SMN two salts really isn't that big of an issue though.

Well, with the help of the advice I got from various posters in this thread, last night our CoP static tried Snoll Tzar and beat him first time, 1/1 (although we did a dry run immediately beforehand, using no 2hrs, salts, or meds). My party buffs for the fight were SV Ballads and an INT Etude on RDM, and SV Minuetx2 on the melee.

We went in a tankless setup, WAR/NIN WAR/SAM MNK/WAR RDM/BLM WHM/BLM BRD/WHM. Our plan was to shut him down and weaken him as much as possible as soon as he aggroed, to give the melees and RDM the time they needed to kill him. We used SV Elegy, Gravity and DiaII on him at aggro, and WHM used a salt immediately. This kept him as quiet as possible. Also used Fire Threnody and a fully Boosted Chi Blast.

WAR/SAM then unloaded 300TP Berserk Hasso Aggressor Mighty Strikes Raging Rush > Icarus Wing > Raging Rush (Fragmentation SC) > melee > Raging Rush while RDM Chainspell FireII spam. MNK then WS followed by 2hr. I was just using a second salt when he died. WAR/NIN didn't even get a chance to 2hr. Only death was the WAR/SAM (immediately after third Mighty Strikes RR).

Hope this might be helpful for those out there trying this fight. Thanks again to posters here for all the good advice, it was very helpful. Airship next, kinda nervous about that one but I guess we'll see how it goes (NIN/WAR WAR/NIN MNK/NIN RDM/BLM WHM/BLM BRD/WHM for that one).

Edited, May 4th 2007 12:58pm by midnightjade