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#52 Jan 04 2013 at 10:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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CelestianNinja wrote:
perhaps changing the way we play would help.We have to understand the whole world is governed by laws that we have to abide by, this game is no diff. We have to use what we are given and use it for the better. Just maybe allowing the tank to hold hate, while dealing increments of damage and healing would be useful.


We used to do this back in the day. But back in the day we really had all the time in the world. With how events work today we are held to strict time frames. We can't have our DD's turn their backs because we need them smashing in the mobs face or we time out. Legion is probably the best example.

The game itself, enmity aside, is not designed presently to support tanks. As long as we are competeing against clocks and not mobs, it is hard to find a spot to justify tanking, it is easier to just adjust tanking to fit in the mold, instead of the game to accept a tank.
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#53 Jan 04 2013 at 11:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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CelestianNinja wrote:
perhaps changing the way we play would help.We have to understand the whole world is governed by laws that we have to abide by, this game is no diff. We have to use what we are given and use it for the better....


It is different because the "laws" of the game are literally mathematical functions that are constantly being adjusted by the game developers, and if the laws aren't having their intended affect, then they need to be changed.

Imagine if you could have a dial that controlled gravity. And for some reason you accidentally set it so that it was extremely hard to even stand up. You wouldn't just leave it that way and say "let's just crawl around instead of walking". No, you'd adjust the dial so gravity had its intended affect.

This is how video game laws work. If the function doesn't work right, you tweak it or change it. The hate system used to work very well (or at least way better than it does currently). Changes to the game over the years have thrown this system out of balance and they tried to account for this by updating jobs and creating new gear attributes etc. But the system has just gotten way out of whack, kind of like an engine with a bad timing belt. It runs, but not very efficiently. Rather than leave it broken, why not fix it?




Edited, Jan 4th 2013 12:22pm by ChaChaJaJa
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#54CelestianNinja, Posted: Jan 04 2013 at 11:45 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I agree with both of you to a extent, in the end perhaps it is up to us, the players, to bring the game back into harmony by the way we play. We all asked for a deep game & see high numbers of damage being delt. I feel SE gave us both a strategic game & high numbers of damage flashing on our screen. I feel the game is meant to be played with strategy, rather than just throwing tons of damage at something.
#55 Jan 04 2013 at 12:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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The thing is Enmity has always been broken. It is just way more pronounced now. DD's have always been taking hate, but instead of needing 6-7 minutes to do so, it is happening in the first 2-3 minutes, or even less in some cases. The overall difference really between then and now is how the content works.

Back in sky we could get away with having some DD /THF to help boost the tanks enmity early on and give them a large buffer that took a long time to close otherwise, we could do this because our overall damage output wasn't required to be optimized to complete the content and progress. If a fight took half an hour because you had to keep turning DD's away from the mob, or allow tanks to establish hate leads (such as RDM building CE for a few minutes before everyone engaged), but that was ok because we didn't get booted from sky if it took us a long time to kill stuff, we just were slow. As we progressed we killed things faster, we changed tanks from PLD's to NIN's because NIN didn't bleed enmity like a PLD and could provide stronger DD.

Like I said above in todays events everything is challenged by time, not content. You aren't fighting a mob in legion, you are fighting a clock. It is why we optimize our DD, we have to maximize output in order to complete the content within the arbitrary time frame. We don't have the luxury of progressing through the content and becoming faster as we complete it more often, we have to start at optimal. This is bad for tanks as we can no longer balance the fine line of enmity caps and generation. We can't bring the /THF DD's because we need that extra 20-25% capacity that /WAR or /SAM provide.

The way the top end events are designed limits our opportunity to progress and removes and real possibility for any tank to be effective. As long as we continue to be challenged by time limits and not content the effectiveness of tanking will be minimal at best. Outside of perhaps holding mobs.

But the problems have always persisted, the larges difference is not the damage increase, but the fact that we can't use our old tricks to help tanks out. Until we are actually fighting against content and not timers the glaring enmity issue will be right in our face. We had the same problems in Sky, **** even in EXP parties, but without time restrictions we could side step those problems to an extent, and the issue didn't seem to be an issue.

The enmity system has always been flawed, but game design really brings it out into the open now.
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#56 Jan 04 2013 at 12:17 PM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:
The thing is Enmity has always been broken. It is just way more pronounced now. DD's have always been taking hate, but instead of needing 6-7 minutes to do so, it is happening in the first 2-3 minutes, or even less in some cases. The overall difference really between then and now is how the content works.


I don't know if I completely agree with that sentiment, but it kind of depends on exactly what you mean. I don't feel like the tank should have a mob tractor beam. If a DD goes all out, he/she SHOULD pull hate, otherwise it's broken in the other direction. If the BLM just fires nukes with no regard for building hate, they ought to pull the mob off. There are some elements to party play that should involve that type of pacing and strategy. And while I agree it can be difficult to balance that with beating a timer, I don't think it automatically means it's no good. I just think it's clearly skewed too far in one direction at this point.


Edited, Jan 4th 2013 1:20pm by ChaChaJaJa
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#57 Jan 04 2013 at 12:27 PM Rating: Default
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rdmcandie wrote:
The thing is Enmity has always been broken. It is just way more pronounced now. DD's have always been taking hate, but instead of needing 6-7 minutes to do so, it is happening in the first 2-3 minutes, or even less in some cases. The overall difference really between then and now is how the content works.

Back in sky we could get away with having some DD /THF to help boost the tanks enmity early on and give them a large buffer that took a long time to close otherwise, we could do this because our overall damage output wasn't required to be optimized to complete the content and progress. If a fight took half an hour because you had to keep turning DD's away from the mob, or allow tanks to establish hate leads (such as RDM building CE for a few minutes before everyone engaged), but that was ok because we didn't get booted from sky if it took us a long time to kill stuff, we just were slow. As we progressed we killed things faster, we changed tanks from PLD's to NIN's because NIN didn't bleed enmity like a PLD and could provide stronger DD.

Like I said above in todays events everything is challenged by time, not content. You aren't fighting a mob in legion, you are fighting a clock. It is why we optimize our DD, we have to maximize output in order to complete the content within the arbitrary time frame. We don't have the luxury of progressing through the content and becoming faster as we complete it more often, we have to start at optimal. This is bad for tanks as we can no longer balance the fine line of enmity caps and generation. We can't bring the /THF DD's because we need that extra 20-25% capacity that /WAR or /SAM provide.

The way the top end events are designed limits our opportunity to progress and removes and real possibility for any tank to be effective. As long as we continue to be challenged by time limits and not content the effectiveness of tanking will be minimal at best. Outside of perhaps holding mobs.

But the problems have always persisted, the larges difference is not the damage increase, but the fact that we can't use our old tricks to help tanks out. Until we are actually fighting against content and not timers the glaring enmity issue will be right in our face. We had the same problems in Sky, **** even in EXP parties, but without time restrictions we could side step those problems to an extent, and the issue didn't seem to be an issue.

The enmity system has always been flawed, but game design really brings it out into the open now.

I agree with this 100%,perhaps then its the time extension that needs to be done away with?

Back when tanks were effective I used a rule no one else in the pt WS until after the 2nd voke, this allowed me to at least feel my cup first of hate before anyone else. It was VERY effective in holding hate. Not saying by doing this is a fix, just throwing it out there. You also have to understand WS in the game were meant to be used as a WS chain doing even more damage when combined with a MB, also balancing the hate in the PT. Now we all just go balls to the wall and its just chaos instead of party harmony.

Perhaps in the end Im just dreaming of the way the game used to be played, perhaps now we are governed by different laws than we used to be. I can not help but to think if we fix the no time and go back to the way we used to play it would help, if not fix the problem.

You have a awesome post btw, very well thought out.
#58CelestianNinja, Posted: Jan 04 2013 at 12:31 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Exactly what I been saying.. LOVE some of the post lol.
#59 Jan 04 2013 at 8:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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CelestianNinja wrote:

in the end perhaps it is up to us, the players, to bring the game back into harmony by the way we play.


And lazy game designers the world over just found their spokesperson.

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Perhaps in the end Im just dreaming of the way the game used to be played, perhaps now we are governed by different laws than we used to be. I can not help but to think if we fix the no time and go back to the way we used to play it would help, if not fix the problem.


You are referencing the meta-game; it used to be the way you say, but it changed, both due to players "figuring out" how to be more efficient, and due to devs in turn catering to this. Basically what you're suggesting will never realistically happen, since players aren't going to suddenly decide en masse to re-embrace the old meta-game.



Edited, Jan 4th 2013 9:14pm by Llester
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#60 Jan 04 2013 at 10:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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ChaChaJaJa wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
The thing is Enmity has always been broken. It is just way more pronounced now. DD's have always been taking hate, but instead of needing 6-7 minutes to do so, it is happening in the first 2-3 minutes, or even less in some cases. The overall difference really between then and now is how the content works.


I don't know if I completely agree with that sentiment, but it kind of depends on exactly what you mean. I don't feel like the tank should have a mob tractor beam. If a DD goes all out, he/she SHOULD pull hate, otherwise it's broken in the other direction. If the BLM just fires nukes with no regard for building hate, they ought to pull the mob off. There are some elements to party play that should involve that type of pacing and strategy. And while I agree it can be difficult to balance that with beating a timer, I don't think it automatically means it's no good. I just think it's clearly skewed too far in one direction at this point.


Edited, Jan 4th 2013 1:20pm by ChaChaJaJa


I agree, but thats the thing, back in sky which had no time limits, a BLM could go all out. Take a hit or two, then not cast for a few minutes and bleed its VE away. So when they began casting again the tank had an established buffer. Now replace BLM with DRK, and not casting with turning their backs. This is done to bleed hate, usually after you pull it. You take a short break from engagement to allow a tank to reestablish a buffer, so you can go back in and smack the mob, until you pull hate again.

In todays content, you don't have the time allotted to have your DD turn their backs. You can not afford the time off the mob, because you will then fall short of your half hour time limit. You go balls to the wall, and murder things as fast as possible. Without giving the tank the ability to tank what good is a tank?

I dont think that tanks should have tractor beams, but they need to have a buffer applied to them so DD can go balls out for longer periods of time. The periods of time that we require them to in current time based content.

There simply is no room for tanking practices in current content, which has magnified the enmity issue that has always been with us.

I personally think the biggest issue is content design, because we can not use our old tricks to support tanks, but I also think that enmity itself needs to be addressed because this is not a new issue, it is just a lot more in your face, because of content design dictating our ability to support tanks. (if that makes sense?)
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#61 Jan 05 2013 at 12:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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ChaChaJaJa wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
The thing is Enmity has always been broken. It is just way more pronounced now. DD's have always been taking hate, but instead of needing 6-7 minutes to do so, it is happening in the first 2-3 minutes, or even less in some cases. The overall difference really between then and now is how the content works.


I don't know if I completely agree with that sentiment, but it kind of depends on exactly what you mean. I don't feel like the tank should have a mob tractor beam. If a DD goes all out, he/she SHOULD pull hate, otherwise it's broken in the other direction. If the BLM just fires nukes with no regard for building hate, they ought to pull the mob off. There are some elements to party play that should involve that type of pacing and strategy. And while I agree it can be difficult to balance that with beating a timer, I don't think it automatically means it's no good. I just think it's clearly skewed too far in one direction at this point.


Edited, Jan 4th 2013 1:20pm by ChaChaJaJa


Enmity has always been broken, on the simple fact that damage is the dominant basis of maintaining hate on a catastrophic level, meaning other methods such as curing or JAs just aren't as attractive as doing the most damage possible. This is major problem, considering that PLD shouldn't be outputting damage on the level of our top-tier DDs, yet their other methods of gaining CE (Flash, Cure cheating) is extremely inferior.

rdmcandie has a point when parties had "old tricks" to allow a PLD to tank, but PLD would've never gotten that far if it weren't for Atonement and Shield Mastery. Atonement was essentially free spike damage which allowed PLD to maintain control of the mob for longer periods of time. Joytoy and Shield Mastery allowed for PLD to gain TP really fast, especially since during that time, SE got rather excessive with Double/Triple attack mobs.

And even then, PLD wasn't exactly a requirement for any of the old content. It acted more of a safety net for alliances that weren't at the top-end and couldn't zerg down NMs. So even when PLD was at it's prime, it wasn't a top-tier job.
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#62 Jan 05 2013 at 3:08 AM Rating: Good
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And even then, PLD wasn't exactly a requirement for any of the old content. It acted more of a safety net for alliances that weren't at the top-end and couldn't zerg down NMs. So even when PLD was at it's prime, it wasn't a top-tier job.


This is hugely important. It mostly emphasizes the plight that tank jobs face. PLD is a tank period, it offers a group nothing else. It can not be a place healer like a RDM or a DD like a DRK. It is a tank it is its only purpose. A couple years ago SE made a nerf, that targeted RDM mostly but the lesser used DRK.

In a zerg situation a DRK even without a KC was capable of not only taking hits but dealing massive amounts of damage over a short period. It wa the corner stone of zerg "tanking" because it was hard to kill, and dealt massive damage. Not to say PLD wasn't involved, many shells used PLD to take initial hate on a mob through is large VE infusions, but not expected to hold.

In contrast you have RDM that was used not to deal damage, but to maintain a mobs focus over long engagements. It had limited VE abilities, but it had the best TE rotation at the time. Once a RDM established hate, it was almost impossible to remove that hate. RDM would bleed little to no CE, and had a cycle of several highish VE spells the could spam.

Both were nerfed because they we to good. RDM lost its CE+VE generation spells, and DRK lost its ability to handle itself in a DPS race.

PLD has never been the ideal tank. Throughout this games history players have gone for optimal grouping. A PLD = RDM, DRK, NIN, THF. and the latter 4 allow for more useful flexibility. a RDM supports better than a PLD, a NIN DRK and THF out DD a PLD, and bleed less enmity in longer fights.

PLDs use is really nonexistant if you think about it, even in todays game, it is most unfortunate.

I would almost wager that giving PLD a large boost in damage potential would be its saving grace, then again SE could try another nerf, like they did to NIN, THF with the AoE additions, or they did to DRK with the BW reduction (and again I think I got the wrong ability), and like they did to RDM and DRK with the enmity change to enfeebles.

Enmity is **** and really SE has IMHO tried to tweak it to far in PLD's favor, by removing realistically a good 5-6 tank options (RDM, DRK, NIN, THF, DNC, SAM)

Yet they never understood the root issue with PLD....It is not a great tank, it has had some moments, but overall even in its heyday, It required specific tanking support (turning backs not nuking, etc) It wasn't because the other tanks were to good...its because PLD sucked.
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Having to take hits in order to effectively increase enmity is bad design.
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#63 Jan 05 2013 at 1:50 PM Rating: Default
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Llester wrote:
CelestianNinja wrote:

in the end perhaps it is up to us, the players, to bring the game back into harmony by the way we play.


And lazy game designers the world over just found their spokesperson.

Quote:

Perhaps in the end Im just dreaming of the way the game used to be played, perhaps now we are governed by different laws than we used to be. I can not help but to think if we fix the no time and go back to the way we used to play it would help, if not fix the problem.


You are referencing the meta-game; it used to be the way you say, but it changed, both due to players "figuring out" how to be more efficient, and due to devs in turn catering to this. Basically what you're suggesting will never realistically happen, since players aren't going to suddenly decide en masse to re-embrace the old meta-game.



Edited, Jan 4th 2013 9:14pm by Llester

I do not really believe the designers are lazy, I mean after all through out the years they have did nothing but give us what we wanted. Seems to me they have to tailor to 2 different players. In fact I believe players are the lazy ones, first they hated grinding & wanted everything handed to them on a platter. I understand there are those who cant grind all day due to real life & I am not talking about those. I am talking about the AFKers who want everyone else to do the work for them. They wanted to deal out tons of damage and kill super fast, cause other wise it would cause them to think to much. Then you had those who love the challenge and like to work for what they have, so that everyone in Jeuno was not wearing the same Uber gear.

I do not want to speak as a whole, but no one works together in the game anymore, zero strategy. I feel the mechanics are there its just no one uses them anymore. Not saying the game can not use some tweaks for tanks, after all I have played tank job for close to 9 years. I am just telling what I have witnessed & that is the players are playing different, zero strategy. Have you even tried to set up a SC in a party these days, half of them have no idea what a SC even is and they are level 99.

Like you said tho, it will prob never happen again like it used to be or at least blending the two styles of play. For me I would like to blend the two styles, I love both styles of high damage and strategy. In the end tho i love this game and I love the community here.
#64 Jan 05 2013 at 2:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Like you said tho, it will prob never happen again like it used to be or at least blending the two styles of play. For me I would like to blend the two styles, I love both styles of high damage and strategy. In the end tho i love this game and I love the community here.


As long as SE continues to make the challenge in this game the clock, then no we will likely never see a return to old meta style group make ups. However. If SE were to remove their arbitrary time limits, then you would see more of the old stuff being used...because it can be used.

Even back in the day when the old meta was strong it was segregated groups. You had (many more than ill list but ill just list a couple)

The guys who had to kite Kirin
The guys who straight tanked Kirin
The guys who zerged Kirin.

Basically it was a progression, we moved from one step to the next, when we first entered sky we were weaker, we were slower, we might not have understood all the goings on. But as we played it more, and got stronger we found we could speed things up. We didn't need to run Kirin around in circles, we could just stand there and straight tank it, meaning more DD could hit it and kill it faster. Then we thought heck we might be able to just Zerg it down without even worrying about the Adds, and we did that too.

In todays game there is no progression, the old strategies that were less efficient, but were stepping stones, are unusable now in much of the content. Due to time frames mostly. SE's design has essentially removed the first few steps, and those steps are where we saw things like turning backs, letting tanks tank, laughing at silly DRKs who go LRSE at the start of a fight and get eaten.

I know I sound like a broken record, but the content design now does not allow for old meta strategoes, because the challenge is more so the time limit, not the content. As long as SE maintains time limits as the standard challenge, then you will not see progression growth, you start at optimal, and have no where left to go...and from that point it becomes a boring grind because instead of advancing from 30 minute fights to 20 to 10, you are shaving a few seconds off here and there.

And now I am just rambling so ill stop typing here.


Edited, Jan 5th 2013 5:49pm by rdmcandie

Edited, Jan 5th 2013 5:50pm by rdmcandie
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#65 Jan 05 2013 at 4:33 PM Rating: Good
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CelestianNinja wrote:

I do not really believe the designers are lazy, I mean after all through out the years they have did nothing but give us what we wanted.


Show me where I said "The XI designers are lazy". Also, the second part of your statement is funny.

Quote:

In fact I believe players are the lazy ones,


Hey look, its 2004, back when people thought MMOs should be work. Its a game. Furthermore, its a service. We PAY for it. You aren't going to understand this I can already tell. If you're talking about just AFKers, idk what to tell you. Kick them?

Actually, its not much of a game or a service anymore. Its more a series of tedious, repetitive chores that people pay to do.

Quote:

I do not want to speak as a whole, but no one works together in the game anymore, zero strategy.


"I don't want to make broad sweeping generalizations but I'm going to follow that statement with a broad sweeping generalization" Also, you seem to be asking players to invent and execute complex strategy for scenarios where little to no strategy is required to win. Why should players do this, and how is this the players' fault again?

Quote:

Have you even tried to set up a SC in a party these days, half of them have no idea what a SC even is and they are level 99.


No one uses them because by and large they aren't implemented correctly. Players figured out years ago that there was a more efficient way of dealing damage, and stuck with it. Guess whose fault that is?

Seriously did you fall through a wormhole from 2004? I feel like i'm being trolled.
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#66CelestianNinja, Posted: Jan 06 2013 at 11:51 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I am gonna stop this there due to the fact this thread is getting derailed.
#67 Jan 06 2013 at 1:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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CelestianNinja wrote:
I mean after all through out the years they have did nothing but give us what we wanted.

No they didn't. For years, in typical Asian design, they gave us what they wanted.
CelestianNinja wrote:
Lastly I have no idea what a troll is.

Watch The Hobbit.
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#69 Jan 07 2013 at 2:55 AM Rating: Decent
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CelestianNinja wrote:
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Show me where I said "The XI designers are lazy". Also, the second part of your statement is funny.

Quote:
And lazy game designers the world over just found their spokesperson.


I am gonna stop this there due to the fact this thread is getting derailed.

One thing I agree on is yes tanks can use some help rather it be getting rid of time, giving tanks more enmity or teaching players how to play the game different ( which will never happen ) or perhaps all the above. I love tanking its my favorite job

Lastly I have no idea what a troll is.


yay tanking!
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