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#1 Dec 28 2012 at 10:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Please, for the love of all that is good, don't mess up the enmity formula update.

Why must a job like paladin be a fallback job instead of an actual tank? Why does the job need amazing gear in order to stand out against actual damage dealers?

I would LOVE to be an awesome tank like that paladin in the anime Sword Art Online and block stuff like a PRO instead of watch as the bst with a fully merited axe weapon skill tanks by swapping enmity with his pet.

Also make enlight, the additional effect from excalibur or enspells in general add additional hate--or reduce hate for endark if there is a way for that.

The monks, ninja's, wars, or any DD that could stay alive long enough to be cure bombed and outdamage paladin have shone in the spotlight for way too long.

Heck--just add an ability that guarantees the mob is facing your general direction for 15 seconds, or keep the new 1hr ability as an enmity builder as was originally planned.

Other rants Smiley: glare Please do the absolute inverse of what I just said for ranger.

Edited, Dec 29th 2012 2:50am by Thelastremainingintime
#2 Dec 29 2012 at 9:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Oh man, I think a paladin trait to generate additional enmity with every hit on a monster would be sorely overdue, whether that's added to en-light or what have you.
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#3 Dec 29 2012 at 11:37 AM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:
Oh man, I think a paladin trait to generate additional enmity with every hit on a monster would be sorely overdue, whether that's added to en-light or what have you.


Needs a trait that allows it to surpass the CE cap imo, that way other jobs can't steal hate once it gets capped out...unless the PLD is taking lots of damage, or there are hate reset moves. I think the biggest problem PLD's face is that all the other jobs hit the CE cap too pretty easily and then it has no real way to tank other than relying on VE which isn't really great for holding hate over long periods, and is generally only decent for grabbing initial attention, or reasserting attention when a mob turns.

Edited, Dec 29th 2012 12:39pm by rdmcandie
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#4 Dec 29 2012 at 12:36 PM Rating: Good
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Thelastremainingintime wrote:

The monks, ninja's, wars, or any DD that could stay alive long enough to be cure bombed and outdamage paladin have shone in the spotlight for way too long.


To offer an alternative perspective, 2 out of 10 years really isn't that long.

But this does not mean I disagree that PLD needs to be changed.

Where I do disagree is in any nerfing of actual DD.

Don't really want to go back to the days of PLD x2-3, WHM x2-3, BLM onry alliances we had for most of the first 8 years of this game. This was much, much worse that the changes Abyssea and Voidwatch brought to the game.





Edited, Dec 29th 2012 1:36pm by TheBarrister
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#5 Dec 29 2012 at 12:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Don't really want to go back to the days of PLD x2-3, WHM x2-3, BLM onry alliances we had for most of the first 8 years of this game. This was much, much worse that the changes Abyssea and Voidwatch brought to the game.


I agree nerfing DD is not the solution, but this is a little bit exageratted no? NIN had a pretty good period of time where it was the top choice, RDM was there for a year or so, PLD only really became a mainstay after ToAU.

Nerfing DD doesn't fix the problem, all it does is reduce its likelihood of arising. The only way to really fix PLD is to give it the default ability of being the best at establishing Enmity, if this means more enmity per attack or breaking the current Cap it doesn't matter, but the enmity system is provably faulty and does require attention.

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#6 Dec 29 2012 at 4:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Best way to go about readjusting the enmity system is to reduce CE/VE gain from all damage / healing by 75% or so. It's the only way to prevent DD's from hitting hate cap super fast via WS spam. That would only be half the adjustment, the 2nd half would be modification of CE/VE gains on Flash / Provoke to be larger then it is currently.

Currently Provoke is 1800 VE 1 CE with VE being reduced by 60 units per second, this makes provoke effectively useless for thanking anything past 30s or so. PLD's were able to macro in tons of +enmity to get it's value such that it created positive VE gain over time, but still wasn't anywhere near enough to make a difference these days. Flash is much the same, it has a small amount of CE but a large amount of VE and CE is where real hate holding is at. Both Provoke and Flash need to be adjusted to create large CE values to go with their large VE values. After this PLD needs a JT created that adds +enmity.

Lv 30 Enmity +10
Lv 50 Enmity +5 (15 total)
Lv 70 Enmity +5 (20 total)
Lv 90 Enmity +5 (25 total)

This would go beyond and stack with the 100 enmity cap that seems to be in place right now. Also need to adjust sentinel such that it's +100 enmity rather then setting enmity to 100.

Also for those talking about hate from DD, it severely needs reduced. This is an artifact from the fact the hate system was balanced around the values from level 50.

DD does 3000 damage WS, that equals approx 3000 CE and 9000 VE. Provoke is 1 CE 1800 VE, flash is worse but can be lowered to cast more often. No matter what you do to PLD it simply can't possibly generate anywhere near the same hate as a DD. Even if you gave it +100% enmity generation it still wouldn't be close, not by an entire order of magnitude. That's how bad the hate system of this game is screwed up, PLD's tried for years and finally it's so lop sided that nothing they do will possibly work.

Edited, Dec 29th 2012 10:34pm by saevellakshmi
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#7 Dec 29 2012 at 4:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't think a straight up reduction is needed. Perhaps a sliding scale reduction based on the total HP of the monster. So on HNM fights where you'll be doing less damage even as a top tier DD, the amount of enmity generated is significantly lower. If you WS for 2,000 against an HNM that has 150,000 HP, there's no reason to get any more than a fraction of the enmity you normally would because the total damage you did as a percentage of the mob's HPs is so low. On the other hand, doing a WS for 5K on a mob with only 10K HP should still yank you to max CE, since you just basically chopped the mob in half :P
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#8 Dec 29 2012 at 5:28 PM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:
I don't think a straight up reduction is needed. Perhaps a sliding scale reduction based on the total HP of the monster. So on HNM fights where you'll be doing less damage even as a top tier DD, the amount of enmity generated is significantly lower. If you WS for 2,000 against an HNM that has 150,000 HP, there's no reason to get any more than a fraction of the enmity you normally would because the total damage you did as a percentage of the mob's HPs is so low. On the other hand, doing a WS for 5K on a mob with only 10K HP should still yank you to max CE, since you just basically chopped the mob in half :P


Monster level is already taken into account. The problem is the scaling factor of damage vs CE/VE has been completely out of whack since level 50. I've really tried to look at it but honestly there is no other way then to reduce the sheer amount of hate that damage generated. It's not just the WS, it's the regular hits. Hitting for 250 gives 250 CE and 750 VE (approx). Procing a DA is now 500 CE and 1500 VE, and if your hasted and buffed then we're talking swinging every second or so. When faced with that sheer amount of CE/VE generation no amount of JA / flash / cure spam will possibly get anywhere near it, not by an entire order of magnitude in best case scenario.

Hate from damage and healing needs reduced by a severe amount to balance out the static amount created by other hate tools.
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#9 Dec 29 2012 at 5:48 PM Rating: Good
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Hate from damage and healing needs reduced by a severe amount to balance out the static amount created by other hate tools.


Really what other hate tools are there?

If you reduce the values of CE accrued through Damage and Healing that leave PLD with Sentinel Shield Bash and Flash (as well as a couple other spells) as CE generators. The issue is Melee DD are hitting the CE Cap, and PLD shares this Cap. In the old days PLD was able to stay above the DD because we had DD who pulled hate turn their backs. The problem has always persisted...the problem is that now it is happening in a few minutes, which is essentially negating the fact that PLD could spam cheap VE moves (flash/sentinel/shieldbash some other lesser ones) and keep the mobs focus long enough to hit the CE cap and then tank via VE and recapping CE from there.

With DD's hitting the CE cap faster PLD looks worse, but reducing the CE generation of heals and damage is detrimental to PLD being able to generate its own CE, essentially nothing changes and once CE is capped then it is essentially a PLD hoping that he doesn't get hit in order to keep hate. (which is why evasion tanking was so dominant)

PLD either needs to be able to generate much more enmity (CE and VE) in order to cap faster and continue to keep the hate, or it needs to be able to break the CE cap so it has the buffer there so it doesn't get smacked for a couple hundred and instantly lose hate to the DRK who is now the CE leader spamming its own VE heavy abilities alongside its considerable damage advantage.

Heck RDM back in the day was a better tank then a PLD in longer fights because it could cap CE very fast, and then hold mobs with a sufficient arsenal of VE stocked spells. But that no longer applies as these were all heavily nerfed in terms of hate tools...no CE is bad for the tanking business.

Reducing the VE generation of damage and healing though is a possible solution, as it would allow a PLD to resestablish hate at the CE cap using VE, but its easier to just let them break the current cap, and then their ability to tank becomes entirely their ability to negate damage, and replensih CE with VE acting as an attention grabber only if the mob lands a crit or something that pushes them under the cap.

Edited, Dec 29th 2012 6:48pm by rdmcandie
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#10 Dec 29 2012 at 6:49 PM Rating: Good
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saevellakshmi wrote:
Monster level is already taken into account. The problem is the scaling factor of damage vs CE/VE has been completely out of whack since level 50. I've really tried to look at it but honestly there is no other way then to reduce the sheer amount of hate that damage generated. It's not just the WS, it's the regular hits. Hitting for 250 gives 250 CE and 750 VE (approx). Procing a DA is now 500 CE and 1500 VE, and if your hasted and buffed then we're talking swinging every second or so. When faced with that sheer amount of CE/VE generation no amount of JA / flash / cure spam will possibly get anywhere near it, not by an entire order of magnitude in best case scenario.

Hate from damage and healing needs reduced by a severe amount to balance out the static amount created by other hate tools.
I guess a different approach would be having enmity values for JAs and hate tools scale with primary stats, because what you're pointing out is that damage scales while JAs and hate tools do not.
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#11 Dec 29 2012 at 7:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ruisu wrote:
saevellakshmi wrote:
Monster level is already taken into account. The problem is the scaling factor of damage vs CE/VE has been completely out of whack since level 50. I've really tried to look at it but honestly there is no other way then to reduce the sheer amount of hate that damage generated. It's not just the WS, it's the regular hits. Hitting for 250 gives 250 CE and 750 VE (approx). Procing a DA is now 500 CE and 1500 VE, and if your hasted and buffed then we're talking swinging every second or so. When faced with that sheer amount of CE/VE generation no amount of JA / flash / cure spam will possibly get anywhere near it, not by an entire order of magnitude in best case scenario.

Hate from damage and healing needs reduced by a severe amount to balance out the static amount created by other hate tools.
I guess a different approach would be having enmity values for JAs and hate tools scale with primary stats, because what you're pointing out is that damage scales while JAs and hate tools do not.


But you still encounter the issue with the CE Cap. Once this is reached the only hate tools that allow a PLD to generate a lead in hate are those which supply VE. However they do not account for the PLD taking consecutive hits which reduces the CE value. DD's who are not the target of attacks maintain their capped CE, and continue to generate VE as well, meaning the TE generated by the PLD is not sufficient to maintain the attention of the mob.

This is the problem we have always faced with PLD but instead of taking 7-8 minutes to notice deteriorated hate control, it happens in the first couple minutes of an engagement.

Alternatively you could use THF's to act as Enmity control specialist (old SATA tanking style) to help PLD keep their enmity values higher than the DD, but the very design of current endgame events restricts the available utility slots in a party, and the time limits imposed limit viability of "gimping" your DD in order to enhance tanking ability.

Long Story short the only way to really address the issue is reducing VE generated by Damage, Allowing PLD to break the current CE cap, or a combination of both (which would likely be the best route as even with a CE advantage PLD still has to deal with limited VE generation outside of damage and healing.)
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#12 Dec 29 2012 at 9:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Not to mention one THF can only currently pull one person at a time off the hate cap to actually have any effect. Pushing the PLD higher doesn't do squat.
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#13 Dec 29 2012 at 10:18 PM Rating: Decent
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It's too easy nowadays for any DD to cap CE and VE, resulting hate bouncing between them.

They should make an array of new PLD abilities that raise PLD's CE and VE cap temporarily. This way, they have to to juggle between these abilities to keep monster's attention on them. But still, they need all the requirement to keep thei CE and VE the highest in the group.
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#14 Dec 30 2012 at 12:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Except 'temporarily' is enough to make them still unreliable as a tank.

No, this requires fundamental changes in the mechanics, not job crutches.
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#15 Dec 30 2012 at 1:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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VZX wrote:
It's too easy nowadays for any DD to cap CE and VE, resulting hate bouncing between them.

They should make an array of new PLD abilities that raise PLD's CE and VE cap temporarily. This way, they have to to juggle between these abilities to keep monster's attention on them. But still, they need all the requirement to keep thei CE and VE the highest in the group.



That is ultimately the problem. Damage generates so much hate that absolutely nothing in the game can possible overcome it. You can give PLD a JA that gives them 10,000 CE + 10,000 VE and put it on a 30s timer. They still won't be tanking for two reasons.

#1 Any DD can easily hit 20,000 TE within seconds.
#2 Once everyone is at the cap the target will be the last to do an action to the NM. DD's are wearing haste and receiving haste buffs, they will always be hitting faster then the PLD and thus always be on the top of the list.

Now to those who still haven't really grasped how hate works. Absolute values for CE/VE do not matter, they could be 5,000, 10,000, 20,000 or 100,000,000 (assuming such was possible). What matters is relative values. Nerfing the CE/VE produced from damage would not hurt anyone's tanking ability provided there was an equivalent nerf to cure hate as well. You would still generate the same relative hate as before, the only two differences being.

#1 Abilities that are primarily focused on hate generation become much more powerful as their hate generation is higher relative to damage. This is hinged upon SE altering them to provide a meaningful boost to CE.
#2 Hate reduction from damage stays the same or similar such that taking damage will actually reduce your hate by a meaningful amount.

Trying to give PLD a "higher hate cap" is gimmicky and won't actually fix the core hate mechanics. Why even bother bringing a PLD when a DD can hit the same hate and do 10x more damage. There needs to be a fundamental change in the nature of hate in FFXI, it needs to be centered on special purpose abilities rather then pure damage output. This issue isn't just FFXI, all MMO's run into the problem eventually where the DPS jobs are putting out so much damage that the system needs to be rigged in the tanks favor.

Two other changes I'd like to see for PLD would be having cover altered to force the NM to attack the PLD for it's duration and PLD being given a tool that lowers all entries (except the PLD) on the target monsters hate list.

Ohh and RDD, Shield Bash never was and never will be "hate tool", it has pitiful enmity values. PLD's only real hates tools are Flash and Sentinel, though they also get Provoke from /WAR. Self curing was only acceptable in very bad XP parties, on NM fights the healer will be keeping the PLD topped off to prevent high damage moves from killing them. For PLD's it's pretty much cycling Flash / Voke while trying to hit as fast / hard as possible and mitigating CE bleed via damage intake.
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#16 Dec 30 2012 at 3:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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saevellakshmi wrote:
That is ultimately the problem. Damage generates so much hate that absolutely nothing in the game can possible overcome it. You can give PLD a JA that gives them 10,000 CE + 10,000 VE and put it on a 30s timer. They still won't be tanking for two reasons.

#1 Any DD can easily hit 20,000 TE within seconds.
#2 Once everyone is at the cap the target will be the last to do an action to the NM. DD's are wearing haste and receiving haste buffs, they will always be hitting faster then the PLD and thus always be on the top of the list.
With this in mind, the only other thing I can think of adding would be enmity decay applicable to both CE and VE. VE would obviously decay faster while CE would take more time to decay. Then give PLD something (a trait, an ability, a mechanic) that directly slows enmity decay for them, so that instead of hitting static caps you can fluctuation of enmity while still making it possible for a careless DPS to steal hate from the tank. The only real snag is that this has been known to work in games with faster combat systems than FFXI's. I don't know what would happen if SE attempted to borrow elements to fix the issues with enmity in this game.

Quote:
#1 Abilities that are primarily focused on hate generation become much more powerful as their hate generation is higher relative to damage. This is hinged upon SE altering them to provide a meaningful boost to CE.
#2 Hate reduction from damage stays the same or similar such that taking damage will actually reduce your hate by a meaningful amount.
This goes back to my point on scaling. I can give you three tank designs where hate tools got stronger as players leveled up, either scaling with level, scaling with stats or the halfway point known as ranks. +Enmity in gear was thrown in as a bandaid that has long since stopped being useful.

Quote:
Two other changes I'd like to see for PLD would be having cover altered to force the NM to attack the PLD for it's duration and PLD being given a tool that lowers all entries (except the PLD) on the target monsters hate list.
As much as I love Taunt mechanics, I don't think XI's combat system warrants it. Granted, this would turn Cover into an "oh sh*t" button and would make it real useful for bosses with enmity resets.
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#17 Dec 30 2012 at 4:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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This goes back to my point on scaling. I can give you three tank designs where hate tools got stronger as players leveled up, either scaling with level, scaling with stats or the halfway point known as ranks. +Enmity in gear was thrown in as a bandaid that has long since stopped being useful.


Problem is degree of scaling. Our damage output jumped 300% or more from 75 to 99, Ability hate would have to jump by an identical amount. In the future if some ability / gear was introduced that had a DD's damage go up by another 10~15%, the Ability hate would also have to be able to jump that much. Eventually you run into a situation where the scaling is uneven, hence my recommending to reduce the hate from damage.

FFXI's hate system was balanced around level 50, serious on that. Build a theoretical level 50 party and you can see that it's possible for the "tank" to maintain hate via current hate mechanics, DD's won't be dealing the damage needed to overcome hate tools. Step it to level 60, things got much harder but still possible. Step it towards level 70~75 where we're not "tanking" anymore on XP mobs due to the hate mechanics being what they are, we still "tank" on NM's by lowering our DD's damage output. Step to 99 and suddenly no amount of lowering will possibly make a fight "tankable". The balance between hate tools and DD output has grown so disproportionate that nothing short of a complete overhaul will make it feasible. We're talking a 1000% change needed towards hate tools / abilities compared to raw damage.

Quote:
As much as I love Taunt mechanics, I don't think XI's combat system warrants it. Granted, this would turn Cover into an "oh sh*t" button and would make it real useful for bosses with enmity resets.


Well covers recast is such that there is no way to keep it up full time. 3 min recast with a 15s base duration, VIT can get you to 30s and merits to 50s. 50s out of 180 isn't going to make anything more tankable but it does serve as a ohh sh!t button, or as a strategic move which I'll explain. Give the PLD a JA that sheds all other hate off the target monster (reduces everyone but the PLD's hate) and use it in combination with Cover. It would be part of a planned rush tactic where the melee's pop their abilities and go nuts for the 50s that cover is up, then afterwards the PLD initiates the shedding and everyone backs down and the tank + spank continues.
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#18 Dec 30 2012 at 8:51 AM Rating: Good
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Ohh and RDD, Shield Bash never was and never will be "hate tool", it has pitiful enmity values. PLD's only real hates tools are Flash and Sentinel, though they also get Provoke from /WAR. Self curing was only acceptable in very bad XP parties, on NM fights the healer will be keeping the PLD topped off to prevent high damage moves from killing them. For PLD's it's pretty much cycling Flash / Voke while trying to hit as fast / hard as possible and mitigating CE bleed via damage intake.


Considering that it is one of the few abilities they have that generates CE, and it was brought up to argue your option on reducing CE generated via melee and healing, im glad you agree that PLD doesn't really have that many hate tools to begin with As for healing PLD's healing other people still generates plenty of CE for the PLD. In todays AoE happy damage scenarios there is plenty of opportunity for a PLD to drop in some heals on others, increasing their enmity further. Self healing was only ever used to reach the hate cap as quickly as possible in zergs, and was needed because well DD were pulling hate from PLD back in 06 too.

PLD does not have the tools to cope with a reduction to CE generation via melee and/or healing. It could get by with a cut to VE, but without its CE generating abilities (its very limited few including shield bash) PLD would be in a worse place then than it is now.

I spent a few hours yesterday looking over the Enmity tables and I am confident in saying the only plausible way to fix PLDs hate control issues is to allow it to exceed the current hate cap. Otherwise the job will still fall short of others TE generation. I say this because other than PLD the other jobs are all competitve in the hate mechanics, they all have high CE generation through damage, and many have several ability options for quick CE/VE generation.

It is a PLD problem not a mechanic problem.

Then again, SE could always buff the piss out of PLD's Sword and Board DPS.

Or they can reconstruct the entire enmity table, and alter the mechanics of each and every spell in the game to appease the players of one job, who really don't have it all that bad. Back in the day when a DD stole hate and died we called them an idiot. Today we say PLD sucks. But Really it has always sucked once everyone is at capped hate.





Edited, Dec 30th 2012 11:35pm by rdmcandie
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#19 Dec 30 2012 at 4:38 PM Rating: Decent
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saevellakshmi wrote:
Problem is degree of scaling. Our damage output jumped 300% or more from 75 to 99, Ability hate would have to jump by an identical amount. In the future if some ability / gear was introduced that had a DD's damage go up by another 10~15%, the Ability hate would also have to be able to jump that much. Eventually you run into a situation where the scaling is uneven, hence my recommending to reduce the hate from damage.
This is more a result of the developers not keeping damage on a leash when they had the chance. I also don't think they balanced hate generation around gear swaps performed by everyone else in the party back when they originally put PLD together.

Ranking is out of the question given that XI's combat system doesn't support it. Scaling with level might work, but I fear someone would cry that it's too easy or something. Then we get to scaling with stats, which might work but would require the devs to redo the formulas for PLD's hate tools and add more if necessary.

On your suggestion, it could go hand-in-hand with something else, but I doubt it would fix anything on its own. If you did baseline hate reduction on all damage, maybe inherent bonus enmity generated by the tank, and proper scaling of hate tools, then you have something to work with. Of course, this all assumes the developers would keep damage in check and toy around with itemization to kill/de-emphasize swaps (because like it or not, you're not going to get balanced DPS with swaps still in the picture).
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#20 Dec 31 2012 at 12:37 AM Rating: Good
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Ruisu wrote:
saevellakshmi wrote:
Problem is degree of scaling. Our damage output jumped 300% or more from 75 to 99, Ability hate would have to jump by an identical amount. In the future if some ability / gear was introduced that had a DD's damage go up by another 10~15%, the Ability hate would also have to be able to jump that much. Eventually you run into a situation where the scaling is uneven, hence my recommending to reduce the hate from damage.
This is more a result of the developers not keeping damage on a leash when they had the chance. I also don't think they balanced hate generation around gear swaps performed by everyone else in the party back when they originally put PLD together.

Ranking is out of the question given that XI's combat system doesn't support it. Scaling with level might work, but I fear someone would cry that it's too easy or something. Then we get to scaling with stats, which might work but would require the devs to redo the formulas for PLD's hate tools and add more if necessary.

On your suggestion, it could go hand-in-hand with something else, but I doubt it would fix anything on its own. If you did baseline hate reduction on all damage, maybe inherent bonus enmity generated by the tank, and proper scaling of hate tools, then you have something to work with. Of course, this all assumes the developers would keep damage in check and toy around with itemization to kill/de-emphasize swaps (because like it or not, you're not going to get balanced DPS with swaps still in the picture).


Yeah the idea is to get the damage from hate under control cause right now it just overwhelmingly crush's everything else. When a DD can cap out hate within 10~15s, and keep it capped, there simply isn't the possibility for a "real" tank. Once damage hate (and the resulting healing hate) is under control you got more room to work with hate focused tools and mechanics. SE's enmity system was built when the level cap was 50 and there simply wasn't the level of buffs and DD power we have now. Too many enmity tools were static hate which doesn't scale well with increased levels and design. Giving PLD native enmity bonus JT along with having some mechanism for them to scale their enmity generation would at least make it plausible.
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#21 Dec 31 2012 at 10:32 AM Rating: Good
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In another MMO I played (TOR), the tank job of that game (Jedi Guardian) had an ability called Taunt which allowed them to force themselves at the top of the hate list and stay there for 30 seconds with no decay. While this is a gimmick, I do believe some things like this should be added (jumping on the hate list, forcing others to the bottom), instead of relying solely on numbers.
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Raelix wrote:
Except 'temporarily' is enough to make them still unreliable as a tank.

Not necessarily. I just throw an idea out. Once we/they work the numbers out on those ability, it could be a good solution.

Say ability A and B increase CE and VE cap by 25% respectively, as well as give the respective enmity boost to CE/VE cap.
Both has 3 minutes CD and have 2 or 2.5 mins duration. Maybe some equip or merit could reduce the CD or lengthen the effects duration.
Adjustment like the cap increase or the enmity boost may diminish over time could also be considered for not making the ability too easy to use.
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#23 Dec 31 2012 at 1:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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VZX wrote:
Raelix wrote:
Except 'temporarily' is enough to make them still unreliable as a tank.

Not necessarily. I just throw an idea out. Once we/they work the numbers out on those ability, it could be a good solution.

Say ability A and B increase CE and VE cap by 25% respectively, as well as give the respective enmity boost to CE/VE cap.
Both has 3 minutes CD and have 2 or 2.5 mins duration. Maybe some equip or merit could reduce the CD or lengthen the effects duration.
Adjustment like the cap increase or the enmity boost may diminish over time could also be considered for not making the ability too easy to use.


Why should a class whose main function is to tank monsters have to have a special ability enabling them to do so? Adding another ability for the broken class to manage because its current arsenal is not adequate is not very good design.
#24 Dec 31 2012 at 11:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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HeroMystic wrote:
In another MMO I played (TOR), the tank job of that game (Jedi Guardian) had an ability called Taunt which allowed them to force themselves at the top of the hate list and stay there for 30 seconds with no decay. While this is a gimmick, I do believe some things like this should be added (jumping on the hate list, forcing others to the bottom), instead of relying solely on numbers.
Part of why I'm iffy of adding a taunt mechanic in FFXI is because the whole point of taunt (aside from encounters where you're bouncing the mob back and forth between multiple tanks as part of the encounter) is to give the tank the opportunity to catch up, assuming it has other high-enmity abilities to use to keep that edge against the DPS.

In WoW it'd be something like Taunt => Shield Slam => Heroic Strike => Devastate with Sword & Board proccing to reset Shield Slam's cooldown.

In TOR it'd be Taunt => Hilt Strike => Riposte => Blade Storm => Master Strike => Slash with Strike and Sunder Armor to build focus.

On an FFXI PLD you'd have Taunt => Flash => Provoke...and nothing else unless you time it so that you have 100 TP for something like Atonement to take advantage of the enmity spike. It'd be stupidly situational and not truly something that you can count on if things go wrong. You'd need more tools in the box to justify a proper taunt mechanic, IMO.

PS: Not to nitpick, but Jedi Guardian's taunt puts you at the top of the hate list for 6 seconds, not 30. >.>

Edited, Jan 1st 2013 12:43am by Ruisu
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#25 Jan 01 2013 at 2:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Awww come on guys, SE's solution to PLD (and RDM) is Runefencer.

;)

Love the mechanics ideas.
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#26 Jan 01 2013 at 2:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Torrence wrote:
VZX wrote:
Raelix wrote:
Except 'temporarily' is enough to make them still unreliable as a tank.

Not necessarily. I just throw an idea out. Once we/they work the numbers out on those ability, it could be a good solution.

Say ability A and B increase CE and VE cap by 25% respectively, as well as give the respective enmity boost to CE/VE cap.
Both has 3 minutes CD and have 2 or 2.5 mins duration. Maybe some equip or merit could reduce the CD or lengthen the effects duration.
Adjustment like the cap increase or the enmity boost may diminish over time could also be considered for not making the ability too easy to use.


Why should a class whose main function is to tank monsters have to have a special ability enabling them to do so? Adding another ability for the broken class to manage because its current arsenal is not adequate is not very good design.

What kind of ridiculous question is that?
Game changes since they put the initial design on the table. Why shouldn't they add abilities to compensate with the changes?
Do you seriously think it's a good idea to keep CE/VE cap as it is ?

Edited, Jan 1st 2013 9:10am by VZX
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#27 Jan 01 2013 at 3:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Ruisu wrote:
HeroMystic wrote:
In another MMO I played (TOR), the tank job of that game (Jedi Guardian) had an ability called Taunt which allowed them to force themselves at the top of the hate list and stay there for 30 seconds with no decay. While this is a gimmick, I do believe some things like this should be added (jumping on the hate list, forcing others to the bottom), instead of relying solely on numbers.
Part of why I'm iffy of adding a taunt mechanic in FFXI is because the whole point of taunt (aside from encounters where you're bouncing the mob back and forth between multiple tanks as part of the encounter) is to give the tank the opportunity to catch up, assuming it has other high-enmity abilities to use to keep that edge against the DPS.

In WoW it'd be something like Taunt => Shield Slam => Heroic Strike => Devastate with Sword & Board proccing to reset Shield Slam's cooldown.

In TOR it'd be Taunt => Hilt Strike => Riposte => Blade Storm => Master Strike => Slash with Strike and Sunder Armor to build focus.

On an FFXI PLD you'd have Taunt => Flash => Provoke...and nothing else unless you time it so that you have 100 TP for something like Atonement to take advantage of the enmity spike. It'd be stupidly situational and not truly something that you can count on if things go wrong. You'd need more tools in the box to justify a proper taunt mechanic, IMO.

PS: Not to nitpick, but Jedi Guardian's taunt puts you at the top of the hate list for 6 seconds, not 30. >.>

Edited, Jan 1st 2013 12:43am by Ruisu



Atonement is a waste, even if they had a burtang @99. Use CDC or KoTR (99 version) instead, it'll create more damage and that's the greatest current source of hate.
Provoke is 1 CE 1800 VE for example. A 1500 damage WS would be approx 1500 CE and ~4500 VE. That WS created more "hate" then all the other PLD's abilities together. Sentinel is interesting because it's +100% enmity generation, so that same Provoke is now 2 CE 3600 VE, that same WS is now 3000 CE 9000 VE. There is a trick amongst PLD's where they do Berserk -> Sentinel -> WS -> Voke -> Flash and ride Berserk out until Sentinel is finished (manually cancel berserk out). If they have a super shield then they could most likely just ride Berserk the entire time, the shield's doing all the defensive work. Anyhow the hate system itself needs reworking as right now it's pretty much impossible to "tank" unless your dealing large amounts of damage.
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#28 Jan 01 2013 at 8:02 PM Rating: Good
I had an idea awhile back I like to throw into the fray. Why not instead of the enmity +/- stat instead of effecting your starting enmity but have it effect the players enmity cap.
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#29 Jan 01 2013 at 10:32 PM Rating: Good
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I've never been in favor of raising the enmity cap for one job because it might actually make tanking too easy. Let's say PLD gets their enmity cap doubled. You'd have to take roughly 11.11 times your max health in damage just for your CE to drop 10k from cap to reach other's cap. Let's say you raise PLD's enmity cap 10%; they still have to lose 55.5% of their HP instantly for the mob to look away from them, but they generate that amount with just ~650 damage.

Let's say you give PLD just a TWO PERCENT increase in enmity cap. They still have to take 11% of their health in damage, or about 200 damage, without generating any CE at all, and still only have to deal 130 damage (one hit?) to be back to their exclusive cap again.

So no. Raising PLD's enmity cap doesn't solve the problem, it just flips it completely around and PLD will be the only thing in the game able to tank. Great for PLD, bad for NIN, BST pets, DNC, evasive THF... you give PLD some silly treatment and leave every other plausible and effective tank out in the cold.

Enmity needs a hard rework. Period.

Edited, Jan 1st 2013 8:34pm by Raelix
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#30 Jan 01 2013 at 10:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah i think that Rae has a point... That's why the +enemity gear suggestion is so interesting. The other thing is it might be possible for More jobs than just pld to get a higher cap. I actually think as part of the reworking of tanking that BST should be put in the category of real tanks and given more tools to do so. I'm dreaming in technicolor of course, but I do think if there was going to be a party niche that bst could take, it would be tank...
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#31 Jan 02 2013 at 12:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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Raelix wrote:
I've never been in favor of raising the enmity cap for one job because it might actually make tanking too easy. Let's say PLD gets their enmity cap doubled. You'd have to take roughly 11.11 times your max health in damage just for your CE to drop 10k from cap to reach other's cap. Let's say you raise PLD's enmity cap 10%; they still have to lose 55.5% of their HP instantly for the mob to look away from them, but they generate that amount with just ~650 damage.


SE has clearly recognized the problem as the PLD AF3 is about reducing enmity lost from damage. A job that is taking hits in order to generate enmity, is going to lose in any scenario without a buffer.

And this is not new, PLD has always had issue with the hate cap, in todays game it is just far more pronounced. Those other jobs you listed are not privy to the same discussion because they are entirely based around not taking damage (exception BST pet) which means not bleeding enmity every 3 seconds on average. It also allows these jobs to gear more offensively and produce larger numbers. Largely because of Utsusemi, and how brokenly awesome it is as a tanking tool (25 CE is nothing compared to what PLD loses).

It is why NIN was awesome, and its why it usurped PLD for many years, it wasn't until AOE spam came in that PLD regained its roll, and now the same problems are arising, yet in a much faster time frame, and in events where we can't ask DD to turn their backs, because we are no longer competeing with a mob in a game, but a time frame in which to do it.




Edited, Jan 2nd 2013 1:35am by rdmcandie

Edited, Jan 2nd 2013 1:35am by rdmcandie
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#32 Jan 02 2013 at 4:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus wrote:
Yeah i think that Rae has a point... That's why the +enmity gear suggestion is so interesting. The other thing is it might be possible for More jobs than just pld to get a higher cap.
This assumes you have a roster of tanks, which FFXI has pretty much not had since the whole PLD vs NIN thing started.

Either way, tanks should have different enmity formulas and mechanics than non-tanks. I still think raising the enmity cap is a poor bandaid and a bigger fix and redesign is needed.

Quote:
I actually think as part of the reworking of tanking that BST should be put in the category of real tanks and given more tools to do so.
I can get behind this, but the BST would need a LOT more control over their pet and pets would most definitely have to scale with the BST's stats (instead of having +pet stats in gear) for it to work.

saevellakshmi wrote:
Atonement is a waste, even if they had a burtang @99.
You missed my point. A taunt mechanic should be something you can use when it is needed rather than be situational. My point would stand even if I had mentioned Fast Blade as the weapon skill, because PLD would still be limited to Flash and Provoke unless by luck they had 100 TP saved up for a WS to follow a Taunt. That would make the mechanic unreliable.

Edited, Jan 2nd 2013 5:45am by Ruisu
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#33 Jan 02 2013 at 8:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Perhaps they should up the tanks damage?
#34 Jan 02 2013 at 8:51 AM Rating: Excellent
Devildawgs wrote:
Perhaps they should up the tanks damage?


The thing is though is that upping the tank's damage dealing abilities wouldn't solve the problem, since it's not really a matter of the tank building hate, so much as it is that as quick as other jobs can reach that enmity cap, it's hard for a tank to maintain the monster's focus. Melee attacks will only do so much given that most melee will be at capped Haste, meaning their own attack speed is going to be significant, and the actual damage being dealt would as a whole be irrelevant. All upping the tank's damage would do would allow them to reach the enmity cap quicker, it wouldn't help them maintain hate control once they reached the cap.
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#35 Jan 02 2013 at 10:55 AM Rating: Default
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Ruisu wrote:
PS: Not to nitpick, but Jedi Guardian's taunt puts you at the top of the hate list for 6 seconds, not 30. >.>


Really? Guess I was that good then.
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#36 Jan 02 2013 at 11:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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Professor Shock Vlorsutes wrote:
Devildawgs wrote:
Perhaps they should up the tanks damage?


The thing is though is that upping the tank's damage dealing abilities wouldn't solve the problem, since it's not really a matter of the tank building hate, so much as it is that as quick as other jobs can reach that enmity cap, it's hard for a tank to maintain the monster's focus. Melee attacks will only do so much given that most melee will be at capped Haste, meaning their own attack speed is going to be significant, and the actual damage being dealt would as a whole be irrelevant. All upping the tank's damage would do would allow them to reach the enmity cap quicker, it wouldn't help them maintain hate control once they reached the cap.


This. Also I imagine SE doesn't want to go down this route since if tanks did as much damage as DD or close to it while being significantly less squishy, it would probably squeeze some DDs out altogether.

Is it reasonable, though, to expect that DDs should never have to control their hate output again? Like are we all agreed that zergs should be viable on every content? I don't think we are, but, I guess I am wondering if for example, SE buffed tanks ability to take/draw damage more, would people who DD be upset if the converse side of that was needing to rein in damage on some fights?

I think SE is between a rock and a hard place otherwise since if... As some people seem to be suggesting, tanks would need to be able to hold hate 100 per cent of the time or close to it to be viable again in more content... Then zergs would probably be too easy since DDs could constantly go balls to the wall without worrying about anything but AoE... And if the monster spammed Aoes all the time, tanking would be largely irrelevant, wouldn't it?

Would people who DD be up in arms if improving tanking also meant more fights designed to not favour zerging/having to be more tactical instead of omgwtfpwn dmg all the time?

Edited, Jan 2nd 2013 9:31am by Olorinus
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#37 Jan 02 2013 at 11:38 AM Rating: Good
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Thelastremainingintime wrote:
Please, for the love of all that is good, don't mess up the enmity formula update.

Why must a job like paladin be a fallback job instead of an actual tank? Why does the job need amazing gear in order to stand out against actual damage dealers?

I would LOVE to be an awesome tank like that paladin in the anime Sword Art Online and block stuff like a PRO instead of watch as the bst with a fully merited axe weapon skill tanks by swapping enmity with his pet.

Also make enlight, the additional effect from excalibur or enspells in general add additional hate--or reduce hate for endark if there is a way for that.

The monks, ninja's, wars, or any DD that could stay alive long enough to be cure bombed and outdamage paladin have shone in the spotlight for way too long.

Heck--just add an ability that guarantees the mob is facing your general direction for 15 seconds, or keep the new 1hr ability as an enmity builder as was originally planned.

Other rants Smiley: glare Please do the absolute inverse of what I just said for ranger.

Edited, Dec 29th 2012 2:50am by Thelastremainingintime

Ive played Ninja tank all my life but I absolutely agree with your post. Its time for tanks to be tanks again, specially PLD.
#38 Jan 02 2013 at 12:31 PM Rating: Good
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Ruisu wrote:
Olorinus wrote:
Yeah i think that Rae has a point... That's why the +enmity gear suggestion is so interesting. The other thing is it might be possible for More jobs than just pld to get a higher cap.
This assumes you have a roster of tanks, which FFXI has pretty much not had since the whole PLD vs NIN thing started.

Gee... why do we not have a roster of tanks despite many jobs that have very good defensive abilities?

Oh, because they can't goddamn hold hate because of current enmity mechanics!

Nice tautology though: "Non-PLD tanks don't exist because they can't keep hate, so don't give them enmity changes so they can."
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#39 Jan 02 2013 at 12:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus wrote:
Professor Shock Vlorsutes wrote:
Devildawgs wrote:
Perhaps they should up the tanks damage?


The thing is though is that upping the tank's damage dealing abilities wouldn't solve the problem, since it's not really a matter of the tank building hate, so much as it is that as quick as other jobs can reach that enmity cap, it's hard for a tank to maintain the monster's focus. Melee attacks will only do so much given that most melee will be at capped Haste, meaning their own attack speed is going to be significant, and the actual damage being dealt would as a whole be irrelevant. All upping the tank's damage would do would allow them to reach the enmity cap quicker, it wouldn't help them maintain hate control once they reached the cap.


This. Also I imagine SE doesn't want to go down this route since if tanks did as much damage as DD or close to it while being significantly less squishy, it would probably squeeze some DDs out altogether.

Is it reasonable, though, to expect that DDs should never have to control their hate output again? Like are we all agreed that zergs should be viable on every content? I don't think we are, but, I guess I am wondering if for example, SE buffed tanks ability to take/draw damage more, would people who DD be upset if the converse side of that was needing to rein in damage on some fights?

I think SE is between a rock and a hard place otherwise since if... As some people seem to be suggesting, tanks would need to be able to hold hate 100 per cent of the time or close to it to be viable again in more content... Then zergs would probably be too easy since DDs could constantly go balls to the wall without worrying about anything but AoE... And if the monster spammed Aoes all the time, tanking would be largely irrelevant, wouldn't it?

Would people who DD be up in arms if improving tanking also meant more fights designed to not favour zerging/having to be more tactical instead of omgwtfpwn dmg all the time?

Edited, Jan 2nd 2013 9:31am by Olorinus


Eventually people would be willing and it would probably be fun.

But so far "having to be more tactical" as you ask for has been entirely defined as "change your job to something that can complete the content". Sometimes this was even done via Pet Linkshells or BLM Linkshells. Ironically, even during the often hailed dreaded "zerg" days of Abyssea, I never heard of a DD Linkshell.
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#40 Jan 02 2013 at 6:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Raelix wrote:
Ruisu wrote:
Olorinus wrote:
Yeah i think that Rae has a point... That's why the +enmity gear suggestion is so interesting. The other thing is it might be possible for More jobs than just pld to get a higher cap.
This assumes you have a roster of tanks, which FFXI has pretty much not had since the whole PLD vs NIN thing started.

Gee... why do we not have a roster of tanks despite many jobs that have very good defensive abilities?

Oh, because they can't goddamn hold hate because of current enmity mechanics!

Nice tautology though: "Non-PLD tanks don't exist because they can't keep hate, so don't give them enmity changes so they can."
My point was more that SE should look at existing jobs and decide which of them should be able to fill the role of tank. Up until Abyssea came out, the playerbase was entirely locked in the PLD vs NIN thing. I mean if you want I'll put a roster together: WAR, PLD, BST, SAM.

Now, here's where someone will cry about homogenization, but I can think of no other way for it to work:
PLD having a native enmity boost to everything they do.
WAR's Defender would grant a similar bonus when the main job is set to WAR
BST could have an enmity bonus but only assigned to crabs and some other high defense jug pets
SAM is where it would get tricky, because if you leave SAM's damage potential intact and give them greater enmity generation, you're already making them a better tank than any of the other jobs. If you add something that lowers its damage and ups enmity generation (it'd have to be a third stance aside form Hasso and Seigan), someone would cry about the damage nerf.
(Honorary mention) DNC could get a buff that increases enmity generated that needs to be kept up through the use of a certain finishing move.

SE has pretty much stayed away from the two most common approaches to tank design. Tanks have spammable abilities that generate lots of aggro or have native aggro bonuses to everything they do. SE went with neither and we've been the poorer for it.

Edited, Jan 2nd 2013 7:06pm by Ruisu
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#41 Jan 02 2013 at 6:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Or you can just fix the enmity system so it isn't totally ruled by damage dealt instead of f*cking with six or seven different jobs.
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#42 Jan 02 2013 at 7:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Raelix wrote:
Or you can just fix the enmity system so it isn't totally ruled by damage dealt instead of f*cking with six or seven different jobs.
Damage will always rule enmity/threat/aggro. It's really just a matter of how to make it play into whatever jobs you choose to assign the tank role to. How to keep that damage in check so that it doesn't lock horns with the DPS and how the tanks should pace themselves in order to be of use to their groups. It's an all encompassing effort, and if you want to get it right chances are everyone will be affected by it in some capacity. So you'd be f*cking with all 20 jobs instead of just 6 or 7.
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#43 Jan 02 2013 at 7:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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It should rule enmity, but in FFXI right now it might as well be the only factor. Damage is the largest source of CE when really it should be mostly shifted to VE so DDs can actually shed hate by turning around.

Trying to arbitrarily assign roles to classes is the wrong way about it, because then you get surprised by things like NIN tanking. This is part of what ruined Fourth Edition D&D, really.

If SE moved all damage dealt/taken to VE and raised the VE cap, like doubled to 20k, but left healing and whatnot on CE, then you have capping CE by healing and other wankery as an option to put yourself ahead of at least half the group, then you only have to keep up about half as much damage as everybody else to stay high enough on VE to hold hate. That's the best concept for 'softening' the system without completely digging into it and dicking with every little thing that I've put together.

This also raises the 'instantly capped VE' damage value from to 5000 damage, a bit further out of reach of current WS, but puts the 'tick down' time around 2 minutes 45 seconds if the 120 per second decay isn't changed, so enmity from damage is still retained for some time. Meanwhile CE should slowly creep up for DDs, making it harder and harder for them to stay on the mob and gives actual use to enmity reduction abilities as a longer-term solution.

Simple solutions duder. Mine is a five minute change, yours is a five month snafu.

Edited, Jan 2nd 2013 5:28pm by Raelix
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#44 Jan 02 2013 at 9:00 PM Rating: Good
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Raelix wrote:
It should rule enmity, but in FFXI right now it might as well be the only factor. Damage is the largest source of CE when really it should be mostly shifted to VE so DDs can actually shed hate by turning around.
This I can get behind. Simpler way to implement enmity decay.

Quote:
Trying to arbitrarily assign roles to classes is the wrong way about it, because then you get surprised by things like NIN tanking.
In any other game NIN tanking would have gotten nerfed to the ground and effectively purged. It was along the lines of Reckoning Bomb and Evasion tanking, both of which warranted their respective nerfs.

It'd be easier to build a roster of tanks if you further develop the tools and assign the role to jobs it would make sense to have as tank. Not to mention "roles" get forced down your throat regardless of whether the game is assining them or the players are. So not much changes in that regard.

Edited, Jan 2nd 2013 10:00pm by Ruisu
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#45 Jan 04 2013 at 3:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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Raelix wrote:
It should rule enmity, but in FFXI right now it might as well be the only factor. Damage is the largest source of CE when really it should be mostly shifted to VE so DDs can actually shed hate by turning around.

Trying to arbitrarily assign roles to classes is the wrong way about it, because then you get surprised by things like NIN tanking. This is part of what ruined Fourth Edition D&D, really.

If SE moved all damage dealt/taken to VE and raised the VE cap, like doubled to 20k, but left healing and whatnot on CE, then you have capping CE by healing and other wankery as an option to put yourself ahead of at least half the group, then you only have to keep up about half as much damage as everybody else to stay high enough on VE to hold hate. That's the best concept for 'softening' the system without completely digging into it and dicking with every little thing that I've put together.

This also raises the 'instantly capped VE' damage value from to 5000 damage, a bit further out of reach of current WS, but puts the 'tick down' time around 2 minutes 45 seconds if the 120 per second decay isn't changed, so enmity from damage is still retained for some time. Meanwhile CE should slowly creep up for DDs, making it harder and harder for them to stay on the mob and gives actual use to enmity reduction abilities as a longer-term solution.

Simple solutions duder. Mine is a five minute change, yours is a five month snafu.

Edited, Jan 2nd 2013 5:28pm by Raelix


Changing damage to VE would actually work out well, though they'd have to remove the x3 CE modifier obviously, maybe on the order of 1DMG = 1VE.

The decay rate is 60 per second not 120. Provoke is 1 CE 1800 VE and at 60 per second it's hate is entirely gone in 30s. That's why it becomes useless for tanking at higher levels in favor of things like flash / stun or bind / blind spam (before nerfage).

They would have to change things like Provoke / Flash and other hate tools to generate large amounts of CE instead of VE, this would go in line of *tanks* tanking through CE while DD's would occasionally grab spike hate.
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#46 Jan 04 2013 at 7:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Professor Shock Vlorsutes wrote:
Devildawgs wrote:
Perhaps they should up the tanks damage?


The thing is though is that upping the tank's damage dealing abilities wouldn't solve the problem, since it's not really a matter of the tank building hate, so much as it is that as quick as other jobs can reach that enmity cap, it's hard for a tank to maintain the monster's focus. Melee attacks will only do so much given that most melee will be at capped Haste, meaning their own attack speed is going to be significant, and the actual damage being dealt would as a whole be irrelevant. All upping the tank's damage would do would allow them to reach the enmity cap quicker, it wouldn't help them maintain hate control once they reached the cap.



Yea I wish the would just remove that darn enmity cap if they can /sigh :( I could never understand why there was a cap in the first place.
I was mostly "thinking out loud" when I posted that. I been playing a few different mmo's lately and I come to see that the most important job in most of them (the tank) tends to be the most stressful and thankless. Heck, now that I remember it back in the Sky/Sea day my Linkshell leaders were always the tanks or healers. Guess what I was saying is maybe it is time to throw them a bone and make them the top dps. I'm sure I'll get bashed for that thought but I guess what what I'm thinking is that those who do the most work should get the most recognition.... meh... I am rambling since no one seriously "Tanks" in this game anymore. I'm looking through nostalgia right now... Heh I have to admit I do like what Sam has become.
#47 Jan 04 2013 at 7:53 AM Rating: Good
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Devildawgs wrote:
Professor Shock Vlorsutes wrote:
Devildawgs wrote:
Perhaps they should up the tanks damage?


The thing is though is that upping the tank's damage dealing abilities wouldn't solve the problem, since it's not really a matter of the tank building hate, so much as it is that as quick as other jobs can reach that enmity cap, it's hard for a tank to maintain the monster's focus. Melee attacks will only do so much given that most melee will be at capped Haste, meaning their own attack speed is going to be significant, and the actual damage being dealt would as a whole be irrelevant. All upping the tank's damage would do would allow them to reach the enmity cap quicker, it wouldn't help them maintain hate control once they reached the cap.



Yea I wish the would just remove that darn enmity cap if they can /sigh :( I could never understand why there was a cap in the first place.
I was mostly "thinking out loud" when I posted that. I been playing a few different mmo's lately and I come to see that the most important job in most of them (the tank) tends to be the most stressful and thankless. Heck, now that I remember it back in the Sky/Sea day my Linkshell leaders were always the tanks or healers. Guess what I was saying is maybe it is time to throw them a bone and make them the top dps. I'm sure I'll get bashed for that thought but I guess what what I'm thinking is that those who do the most work should get the most recognition.... meh... I am rambling since no one seriously "Tanks" in this game anymore. I'm looking through nostalgia right now... Heh I have to admit I do like what Sam has become.



All values on a computer have a maximum number it can hold before it rolls over. An 8-bit value can hold a number as high as 255, add one more and it becomes 0. A common failure amongst programmers is the failure to check that a value is reasonable before attempting to use it. There must be a "cap" to enmity, whether it's 10,000 or 4,294,967,295 makes no difference. A higher cap actually cause's a bigger issue as enmity from damage outstrips everything else. A DD will hit 4,294,967,295 enmity a few hours (days?) faster then a "tank" will.

Edited, Jan 4th 2013 1:54pm by saevellakshmi
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when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the @#%^ out of the way instead...
#48 Jan 04 2013 at 9:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
All values on a computer have a maximum number it can hold before it rolls over. An 8-bit value can hold a number as high as 255, add one more and it becomes 0. A common failure amongst programmers is the failure to check that a value is reasonable before attempting to use it. There must be a "cap" to enmity, whether it's 10,000 or 4,294,967,295 makes no difference. A higher cap actually cause's a bigger issue as enmity from damage outstrips everything else. A DD will hit 4,294,967,295 enmity a few hours (days?) faster then a "tank" will.

This.

Would seem to suggest that implementing tiers would fix the whole thing = Like an odometer rolling over, CE VE would both be cumulative, and "Roll Over" to higher tier when capped. Then, fix's to job traits could further fine tune it (subtle blow would roll over slower E.G.)

Maybe tied to TP gain rate as well, where turning your back for 10 seconds or something would auto reset to a lower tier.
No matter what is done,(without major revamp) I believe we would still always find, and hit, the wall........
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#49 Jan 04 2013 at 9:29 AM Rating: Default
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saevellakshmi wrote:
All values on a computer have a maximum number it can hold before it rolls over. An 8-bit value can hold a number as high as 255, add one more and it becomes 0. A common failure amongst programmers is the failure to check that a value is reasonable before attempting to use it. There must be a "cap" to enmity, whether it's 10,000 or 4,294,967,295 makes no difference. A higher cap actually cause's a bigger issue as enmity from damage outstrips everything else. A DD will hit 4,294,967,295 enmity a few hours (days?) faster then a "tank" will.


Technically, it doesn't have to have a cap assigned. It's piss poor programming but it doesn't technically *require* an officially assigned cap. As far as 10K it's simply arbitrary and more inline of keeping with their small values philosophy back when the game first launched.

I wonder if it would be possible to change the way -/+ enmity values worked. Currently they just affect the amount of hate you generate, but what if they could also affect that and/or the ability to affect the rate at which VE diminishes? Enmity- would increase the rate of degeneration and Enmity+ would slow it. Or it could actually do both. It could be on a linear fashion (which with decay would end up working better in regards to VE than scaling) and be something as simply as 1 Enmity is -/+ 1, 2, or 5 VE.

Granted, that's a bandaid fix and I've never seen -/+ hate values on gear to be anything more than a copout (despite being told I was an idiot for thinking so for almost a decade in regards to this game and that it had the best hate system of any MMO...), but it could be part of a long-term overhaul fix. The problem is pretty much anything decent beyond 75 cap has very little of anything regarding enmity.

As much as I hated the design shift and is part of the reason I left it, I'm beginning to wonder if the 800lb gorilla was thinking in terms of wasted development time when they made threat irrelevant, and just assigned tanks the role of staying alive and managing their cooldowns. I don't like it, but it certainly prevented issues of tanks being completely useless (like they are mostly now in FFXI) :\
#50 Jan 04 2013 at 9:30 AM Rating: Good
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I've been keeping up with the thread, and the suggestion that seemed like the best fix to me was changing actual damage dealt to be VE. Let damage dealt have a VE value with an exponential decay. Then all damage could be treated equally and you could actually shed hate by turning around as opposed to having to wait for someone to surpass you on the hate list. Just swapping that would allow the programmers so much more leeway in "fixing" actual tanking by tweaking the CE values for JA's and specific spells and such. It's seems like this fix would make it so much easier to tailor it correctly (IMO opinion anyways- I'm not a programmer, but I do know a little maths!! :P ).
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#51CelestianNinja, Posted: Jan 04 2013 at 10:22 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) perhaps changing the way we play would help.We have to understand the whole world is governed by laws that we have to abide by, this game is no diff. We have to use what we are given and use it for the better. Just maybe allowing the tank to hold hate, while dealing increments of damage and healing would be useful.
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