Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Some clarification on Treasure HunterFollow

#1 Nov 10 2012 at 7:43 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
3,141 posts
From one of the SE reps on the official forum.

Quote:
Happy Friday everyone!

Sorry to intrude on this thread, but I wanted to share some information about Treasure Hunter.

This post might get a bit complicated since it is about Treasure Hunter, but that is the nature of the beast, as they say.

To shed some light of the background before I drop some knowledge bombs, there was a test performed by your fellow adventurers in Japan, and they noticed that after initially hitting the monster with maximum TH+ gear equipped and then switching to non-TH gear, the rate in which the TH value increased was reduced.

Now that you have the background…

Adding Treasure Hunter+ via equipment, or other means, will not increase the rate at which the Treasure Hunter value grows, as this is a set rate. However, when the value of Treasure Hunter placed on a monster and the value of the Treasure Hunter on your character are different, this will cause the growth rate to vary. With that said, if you want to increase the Treasure Hunter value, it is best to utilize equipment that has the Treasure Hunter+ effect. By unequipping Treasure Hunter+ gear, you are essentially creating a gap between the value placed on the monster and your character, which results in an inefficient means for increasing the TH value.

There have been requests to make it so that it's possible to switch out TH+ gear after the TH effect is placed on a monster, but as there is a concern that this would reduce the value of equipment with Treasure Hunter+ and also takes away all the hard work some players have put into maximize their Treasure Hunter, we would like to keep it as it is currently.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/27974-TH-Procing?p=377001#post377001
____________________________
.
#2 Nov 10 2012 at 8:05 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
***
3,636 posts
Am i jsut really drunk righ tnow, or is this the msot confusing post ever that ehye have ever relased?

Mabye both
____________________________
http://ereblog.livejournal.com/
Erecia and Ereblog are BACK, baby!
#3 Nov 10 2012 at 8:36 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,601 posts
Basically they're saying THFs need to full-time TH gear if you care about increasing TH levels. The rate at which TH increases is dependent on the current TH level of the mob vs. your current total TH (traits + gear).
____________________________
99 BLM / 99 BRD / 99 MNK / 99 WAR / 95 NPC
#4 Nov 10 2012 at 8:50 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
**
805 posts
Basically what they are saying is despite the existence of half decent melee gear for thf, SE considers thf to be nothing but a TH *****.
____________________________
Lokithor
Shiva Server
Linkshell: Soulfire
Rng/Blm/Thf/Brd/Dnc
#5 Nov 10 2012 at 9:03 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,601 posts
You say Potato, I say Potato.

Edited, Nov 10th 2012 10:04pm by Prim
____________________________
99 BLM / 99 BRD / 99 MNK / 99 WAR / 95 NPC
#6 Nov 10 2012 at 9:38 PM Rating: Default
**
575 posts
I sincerely doubt SE did this to force you to wear TH gear.

They just wanted each successive proc to be a little rarer. Diminishing returns. The first proc, at your base TH level (n), has a 100% proc rate. The next one, n+1, has a lower rate. n+2 is lower than n+1, n+3 is lower than n+2, etc.

Since TH gear raises your base level, your base 'n' is high, and it drops when you take the gear off. So, you go from 'n=6' to 'n+3=6', and your proc rate drops accordingly.

tl;dr: Diminishing returns, interesting consequences of code. SE didn't make TH thief's main job, the playerbase did.
#7 Nov 10 2012 at 9:42 PM Rating: Excellent
1 post
Prim wrote:
You say Potato, I say Potato.

Edited, Nov 10th 2012 10:04pm by Prim

I say potatoe.
#8 Nov 10 2012 at 11:16 PM Rating: Default
***
3,775 posts
It seems I misinterpreted what the dev was saying. I reread the dev's post and I'm gonna agree with what everyone else was saying before and after this. You'll have to forgive me; I work retail and our staff has been cut in half due to unforeseeable circumstances for the duration of this holiday season. As a result I've been too tired to think straight when I get home.Since I was wrong I'm just going to remove the post.

Edited, Nov 12th 2012 7:19pm by Melphina
____________________________
[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
#9 Nov 10 2012 at 11:31 PM Rating: Excellent
Jack of All Trades
******
29,217 posts
Quote:
Basically a thief only needs maximum treasure hunter + equipment on for the first hit of any fight to provide maximum bonus.


Actually, what the guy is trying to say is that unequipping your TH gear after that first hit makes it so your chances of leveling TH up further are lowered, because the chance to TH level up is based on the difference between your current TH and the level of TH on the mob. Unequipping your TH gear after one hit will immediately put a big gap between those two levels and lower the subsequent proc rate.

Regardless, there are times when the stuff might be worth wearing throughout the whole fight, and there are times where it certainly is not. I think part of the job should be knowing how to identify the difference. The idiots who are ******** about WHOAMG I HAVE TO WEAR ALL MY ****** TH GEAR FULL TIME NOW QQ seem incapable of doing this, and probably deserve to be gimpy as a result IMO
#10 Nov 10 2012 at 11:37 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
****
6,236 posts
What he said.

Edited, Nov 10th 2012 9:37pm by Raelix
____________________________
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Airships on fire off the shoulder of Bahamut. I watched Scapula Beams glitter in the dark near the Three Mage Gate...

Nilatai wrote:
Vlorsutes wrote:
There's always...not trolling him?

You're new here, aren't you?
#11 Nov 10 2012 at 11:44 PM Rating: Decent
***
3,775 posts
Gonna edit this post out too. Same reason as before; in my half asleep mind I misinterpreted the dev's post (it still should have been worded better. raelix explains it far better than the dev did).

Edited, Nov 12th 2012 7:21pm by Melphina
____________________________
[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
#12 Nov 10 2012 at 11:46 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
Avatar
****
6,236 posts
Actually he just entirely contradicts himself in the same paragraph.
____________________________
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Airships on fire off the shoulder of Bahamut. I watched Scapula Beams glitter in the dark near the Three Mage Gate...

Nilatai wrote:
Vlorsutes wrote:
There's always...not trolling him?

You're new here, aren't you?
#13 Nov 10 2012 at 11:58 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
7,468 posts
Melphina wrote:
The dude made is so overcomplicated to explain stuff we already know. The wording is just gonna confuse people. All that matters is this bit

Quote:
Adding Treasure Hunter+ via equipment, or other means, will not increase the rate at which the Treasure Hunter value grows, as this is a set rate.


Basically a thief only needs maximum treasure hunter + equipment on for the first hit of any fight to provide maximum bonus. I'll simplify his explanation via a pair of examples. Remember that a thief's maximum TH + gear bonus is +4 (thief's knife, relic hands, and rogue's poulaines +2), which when added to our base TH 3 trait is Treasure hunter 7


Actually it doesn't say that at all, it says "Ur Doin it wrong." It specifically says that TH grows at a set rate, and that what varies is the TH level. Which is your TH level vs the Mobs TH level. Which means you are required to continue meleeing in that gear until that specific point is met. Than keeping that gear on, if you take it off, now your TH level is less than the mobs and you begin to let the effect deteriorate at a set rate.

To me it sounds like TH is more so like a DNC samba in the sense the effect must be maintained, and reset every so often. In the sense that you keep the buff maintained through melee, and each time you see the TH level is X it is you recapping. (if for whatever reason you weren't hitting the mob and the buff was dropping.)

The bit you didn't quote pretty clearly says if you want the buff you gotta wear the stuff.

What SE is really saying here is "UR DOIN IT RONG"

Now what I really wanted to respond with.


Poor THF,

SE sends another job to the back of the bus. Essentially SE has stated you must now use level 70 gear to melee in. I wish you luck in your non abyssean endeavors (but hey at least you got to play in it!!!!!), If you want to hang out SCH is coming over around 4, and I think SMN said they might be out later.

~RDM

Edited, Nov 11th 2012 12:59am by rdmcandie

Edited, Nov 11th 2012 12:59am by rdmcandie
____________________________
HEY GOOGLE. **** OFF YOU. **** YOUR ******** SEARCH ENGINE IN ITS ******* ****** BINARY ***. ALL DAY LONG.

#15 Nov 11 2012 at 1:16 AM Rating: Excellent
Zelduh wrote:
Thanks for telling us how something works 10 years after it was released, SE.


Well, you have to take into account that the ability to raise TH past the level you initially set it at is recent. Before they added that ability, you could just tag it once and you'd have the set TH level for the entire fight. They're addressing the new way that TH works (in that it can be increased through persistent meleeing).

What I got out of it, and what I've done some simple eyeball testing with since they announced this yesterday, was that the rate that your Treasure Hunter effect will increase improves if you maintain TH gear on. I have done several Behemoths before this weekend where I'd hit it at the start with full TH gear, then swap back into normal melee gear and then just melee it down, using Sneak Attack/Trick Attack/Feint to improve the chances of an increase whenever their timers were up. Despite my best efforts, I rarely saw past a TH increase past 9. Today, I did two different Behemoths while retaining full TH gear on after the initial hit. Without intentionally going out of my way to boost TH (like turning around and waiting till a JA was up) I got TH up to 12 on the first Behemoth and up to 11 on the second Behemoth.

I know that's hardly a significant test range to say anything concrete, but it did seem to at least somewhat support what was said in the announcement.
____________________________
Lady Jinte wrote:

Vlorsutes' Negotiation Skill rises 0.2 points
Vlorsutes' Observant Parent Skill rises 0.3 points
Vlorsutes' Argument Diffusing Skill rises 0.1 points

#17 Nov 11 2012 at 7:46 AM Rating: Decent
Jack of All Trades
******
29,217 posts
Quote:
What I got out of it, and what I've done some simple eyeball testing with since they announced this yesterday, was that the rate that your Treasure Hunter effect will increase improves if you maintain TH gear on. I have done several Behemoths before this weekend where I'd hit it at the start with full TH gear, then swap back into normal melee gear and then just melee it down, using Sneak Attack/Trick Attack/Feint to improve the chances of an increase whenever their timers were up. Despite my best efforts, I rarely saw past a TH increase past 9. Today, I did two different Behemoths while retaining full TH gear on after the initial hit. Without intentionally going out of my way to boost TH (like turning around and waiting till a JA was up) I got TH up to 12 on the first Behemoth and up to 11 on the second Behemoth.

I know that's hardly a significant test range to say anything concrete, but it did seem to at least somewhat support what was said in the announcement.


I've noticed this kind of thing before too (also on Behemoth, strangely enough)

#18 Nov 11 2012 at 8:25 AM Rating: Decent
***
3,775 posts
Last edit (yay). I'm so looking forward to January right about now.

Edited, Nov 12th 2012 7:17pm by Melphina
____________________________
[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
#19 Nov 11 2012 at 12:55 PM Rating: Excellent
Zelduh wrote:
Professor Shock Vlorsutes wrote:
Zelduh wrote:
Thanks for telling us how something works 10 years after it was released, SE.


Well, you have to take into account that the ability to raise TH past the level you initially set it at is recent. Before they added that ability, you could just tag it once and you'd have the set TH level for the entire fight. They're addressing the new way that TH works (in that it can be increased through persistent meleeing).

What I got out of it, and what I've done some simple eyeball testing with since they announced this yesterday, was that the rate that your Treasure Hunter effect will increase improves if you maintain TH gear on. I have done several Behemoths before this weekend where I'd hit it at the start with full TH gear, then swap back into normal melee gear and then just melee it down, using Sneak Attack/Trick Attack/Feint to improve the chances of an increase whenever their timers were up. Despite my best efforts, I rarely saw past a TH increase past 9. Today, I did two different Behemoths while retaining full TH gear on after the initial hit. Without intentionally going out of my way to boost TH (like turning around and waiting till a JA was up) I got TH up to 12 on the first Behemoth and up to 11 on the second Behemoth.

I know that's hardly a significant test range to say anything concrete, but it did seem to at least somewhat support what was said in the announcement.


TH+ gear has existed for a long, long time and they're basically saying that if you remove TH gear the TH effect resets to the default level (TH1 if you have Treasure Hunter 1 for example, the TH+1 will only make it Treasure Hunter 2 if you keep TH+1 equipped)

Edited, Nov 11th 2012 5:58am by Zelduh

Edited, Nov 11th 2012 6:00am by Zelduh


As Melphina said though, that's not how it works. Even taking the gear off, it's still going to remain at the same set value that you struck it with (Struck the mob with TH7 on, and it stays at least at TH7), and you can see that during a fight. You can swap your gear out after the initial hit, and the next "Treasure Hunter effect has increased to a value of X" or whatever message will always be at least one number higher than the TH you struck the mob with. If it reset to the default value, then the message when it increased would be that it increased to a value of 4, but that's not what it does, and I doubt it's an error with the chat log.
____________________________
Lady Jinte wrote:

Vlorsutes' Negotiation Skill rises 0.2 points
Vlorsutes' Observant Parent Skill rises 0.3 points
Vlorsutes' Argument Diffusing Skill rises 0.1 points

#20 Nov 12 2012 at 2:36 AM Rating: Default
***
1,251 posts
I actually agree with what they are doing, want TH - simply use it. I know I want to use my other stuffs but at the end of the day only reason my THF comes out is for its TH.

Only problem I have with TH is the atma.. i dont want to buy the addon just for TH... but I know I will!
____________________________


If my velocity starts to make you sweat, then just don't
let go
#21 Nov 12 2012 at 3:12 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
Avatar
****
6,236 posts
None of you have what's being discussed right and it's beginning to nauseate me.

Hit a mob with TH7. Bam, TH7 on it.

Okay, good?

Keep your TH gear on and let's say you have a hypothetical 10% chance to upgrade it to TH8.

You wail on it until it's up to TH10 now, right? Let's say your chance of another upgrade at TH10 is hypothetically 2%.

Okay, new mob:

Tack TH7 on it. Good, TH7. Still with me?

Take off your TH gear except Thief's Knife for some reason, so you're wearing TH4 now.

You hit the mob with your TH4 when it already has TH7 on. Your TH is three levels below what's established on the mob. Your chance to upgrade goes down by three 'bumps' to the rate we established for TH7.gear@TH10.mob, 2%.

Geddit?

Wearing TH7 and hitting a mob with TH7 procced: you get my hypothetical 10% chance to upgrade
Wearing TH7 and hitting a mob with TH10 procced: you get my hypothetical 2% chance to upgrade because you're three levels under it
Wearing TH4 and hitting a mob with TH7 procced: you get my hypothetical 2% chance to upgrade because you're the same three levels disparate.

That's what this is about:

The higher the TH on the mob relative to the TH you're hitting it with, the lower your chance to upgrade it.
This is relative to your current equipped TH, so taking off TH lowers your chance to proc upgrades just as if the TH value had been raised as much as you took off.

Now can we please discuss whether they did or did not affirm this mechanic?

Edited, Nov 12th 2012 1:18am by Raelix
____________________________
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Airships on fire off the shoulder of Bahamut. I watched Scapula Beams glitter in the dark near the Three Mage Gate...

Nilatai wrote:
Vlorsutes wrote:
There's always...not trolling him?

You're new here, aren't you?
#22 Nov 12 2012 at 5:50 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
Avatar
***
1,089 posts
That's how I read it too Raelix.
____________________________
SSubZero wrote:

MNK: "OK we're gonna go in and get those items."
WHM: "Did you have a plan?"
MNK: "Plan? I was going to walk through the front door and start punching people."
#23 Nov 12 2012 at 1:45 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
***
2,869 posts
Raelix wrote:
None of you have what's being discussed right and it's beginning to nauseate me.


To be fair, the explanation you gave is much more clearly written than the SE comments (which seem to be begging for misinterpretation). I do agree that I think they're saying what you explained.

Regardless, I fully expect this to result in lots of ignorant THFs simply fulltiming TH gear without understanding that it's really a situational thing for certain fights where you really want to focus only on upgrading TH level to get the most out of a hard to obtain/expensive pop item (say, Behemoth). That being said... I think it's pretty much consensus at this point that once you have a high level of TH, additional level ups provide fairly minor benefit in drop rates anyway.
____________________________
Anza: Titan 2004-2011 / Capuchin: Phoenix 2011-???
#24 Nov 12 2012 at 1:49 PM Rating: Default
Sage
Avatar
**
644 posts
Paralyze will not Overwrite Paralyze II

Apply this logic to TH.
____________________________
Pikko wrote:
I can't freaking believe I didn't click this thread earlier. YOU LITTLE TWERPS!!


Wint wrote:
You know, I can click the rate down button more than once Smiley: motz


>>>--Justice-->
#25 Nov 12 2012 at 5:02 PM Rating: Excellent
**
697 posts
jtftaru wrote:
From one of the SE reps on the official forum.

Quote:

... By unequipping Treasure Hunter+ gear, you are essentially creating a gap between the value placed on the monster and your character, which results in an inefficient means for increasing the TH value.


This is what I got out of it.


Then I read this:

Quote:
Happy Friday everyone!


So... yeh, all clear now...
____________________________
Shadechaos of Seraph Bismarck
R.I.P. Cindy 2.26.56 - 4.18.13
~She made a difference~
#26 Nov 13 2012 at 12:20 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
****
6,236 posts
Peimei wrote:
That's how I read it too Raelix.

And it sounds like exactly how it should work, or at least how a lazy coder would do it.

So the gripe from THFs is that you... have to wear TH... to get high TH values... neh?

Really? That's what they're complaining about now?
____________________________
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Airships on fire off the shoulder of Bahamut. I watched Scapula Beams glitter in the dark near the Three Mage Gate...

Nilatai wrote:
Vlorsutes wrote:
There's always...not trolling him?

You're new here, aren't you?
#27 Nov 13 2012 at 1:18 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
****
7,468 posts
Have you seen High TH+ gear?

I think they are complaining about having to fulltime level 70 gear on mobs designed for level 99 players. I could be wrong though.
____________________________
HEY GOOGLE. **** OFF YOU. **** YOUR ******** SEARCH ENGINE IN ITS ******* ****** BINARY ***. ALL DAY LONG.

#28 Nov 13 2012 at 6:42 AM Rating: Excellent
**
383 posts
I think they should give us some way to augment damage on Thief's Knife. Via trials or synergy or something.
#29 Nov 13 2012 at 9:16 AM Rating: Excellent
***
3,775 posts
Quote:
Have you seen High TH+ gear?

I think they are complaining about having to fulltime level 70 gear on mobs designed for level 99 players. I could be wrong though.


Honestly assassin's armlets +2 and raider's poulaines +2 can fit into decent armor builds. The hands provide a nice accuracy boost and the feet provide a lot of agility, which since the agility update acts like subtle blow now. But the thief's knife is a terrible weapon to have to wield fulltime if you're fighting anything harder than cannon fodder mobs. It was sub par damage at 75, and at 99 it's pathetic. Damage 28 delay 194, as opposed to my strength thokcha's damage 47, delay 190, str + 11, attack + 22, or my accuracy thokcha with 11 dex and 16 accuracy. The thokcha is three times as strong as the thief's knife. It's not such a big deal on low calibur mobs, but on level 99 nasties it matters plenty.

Quote:
I think they should give us some way to augment damage on Thief's Knife. Via trials or synergy or something.


This has been mentioned many times, and it's really the best fix they can come up with.

Edited, Nov 13th 2012 10:22am by Melphina
____________________________
[ffxisig]56619[/ffxisig]

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
#30 Nov 13 2012 at 12:23 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
4,864 posts
XMightyMouseX wrote:
I think they should give us some way to augment damage on Thief's Knife. Via trials or synergy or something.


This will now be given to another job in the next update.
____________________________
Carbuncle


#31 Nov 13 2012 at 7:28 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
***
2,869 posts
Melphina wrote:
Honestly assassin's armlets +2 and raider's poulaines +2 can fit into decent armor builds. The hands provide a nice accuracy boost and the feet provide a lot of agility, which since the agility update acts like subtle blow now. But the thief's knife is a terrible weapon to have to wield fulltime if you're fighting anything harder than cannon fodder mobs. It was sub par damage at 75, and at 99 it's pathetic. Damage 28 delay 194, as opposed to my strength thokcha's damage 47, delay 190, str + 11, attack + 22, or my accuracy thokcha with 11 dex and 16 accuracy. The thokcha is three times as strong as the thief's knife. It's not such a big deal on low calibur mobs, but on level 99 nasties it matters plenty.

Quote:
I think they should give us some way to augment damage on Thief's Knife. Via trials or synergy or something.

This has been mentioned many times, and it's really the best fix they can come up with.


Devil's advocate here... if you're in a situation where you're seriously focusing on getting TH upgrades to proc, do you REALLY want a stronger weapon? If you're truly after maximizing TH procs, what you really want is frequent weak attacks. The more times you hit the mob before it dies, the more chances you had to level up TH. So stats you'd like include Haste, DW, DA/TA/QA, Acc. AGI doesn't hurt for the subtle blow. Adding more DMG, STR/Atk, and to some extent DEX (acc is nice but maybe you don't want crits) are actually negatives for what you're trying to do!

You better believe that a couple months ago when we did some Kirins for a couple LS members who wanted W.Legs, I was meleeing on THF in gear that gave me lousy damage and lots of hits. In fact, I think I was using a Trainee's Knife (DMG:1), not knowing that keeping TH+ gear equipped apparently increases the odds of getting more TH upgrade procs. Today I guess I'd just keep Thief's Knife and TH hands/feet on the entire fight.

Other scenarios:

Solo/lowman an NM:
If you don't want to gimp damage when you're a main source of DD, you always have the option of just using a decent DD offhand dagger and only lose one level of gear TH. Can still fulltime TH hands/feet for a constantly equipped TH6. And by the way, TH hands/feet have nice evasion for a tanking THF.

Fighting something truly difficult:
1) If you really do want to make the most out of THF's DD potential, do what we always have. Pop it once with full TH gear for TH7, then switch to your DD set. Yeah, you get lower rate of TH upgrade proc, but you still have a significantly large amount of TH and it's not like many of us really think the difference between, say, TH9 and TH11 is really substantial. Take the win with a good amount of TH and a less than optimal chance to level it up more, and stop obsessing about getting the best of both worlds.

2) Um... THF probably isn't there for the DD on the "lv99 nasties" anyway. If your group is set up well, you'll have sufficient DD power to kill the thing without relying on the THF to fill that role. So if you or your group wants you to TH-*****, go for it. If the goal is to get TH7 then contribute as much damage as you can, that's cool too.

Everyday stuff:
Maybe you're farming items off normal mobs, doing some Dyna farming, etc. Take your pick, gimp your damage a bit to gain more TH, or kill faster. There's always sacrifice in gear choices, and maybe picking less TH and faster kills wins (increasing kill speed by never using Thief's Knife in Dyna and ending up with more currency after a run is a great example).

I get that this is the kind of scenario where a Thief's Knife with more DD capability would be useful, but I don't really know that I agree it's much of a necessity. You get to choose your optimal set given your focus - easy to get TH6 baseline with just a single smack with hands/feet, which is plenty for most applications. If you really want to sacrifice damage for 1 more level from Knife and the possibility of additional upgrades, that's your decision.


____________________________
Anza: Titan 2004-2011 / Capuchin: Phoenix 2011-???
#32 Nov 13 2012 at 7:33 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
Avatar
****
6,236 posts
Yeah, sounds exactly to me that THFs want free TH without having to wear TH.

Having to keep TH gear on to *gasp* get higher TH levels? What a tragedy!
____________________________
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Airships on fire off the shoulder of Bahamut. I watched Scapula Beams glitter in the dark near the Three Mage Gate...

Nilatai wrote:
Vlorsutes wrote:
There's always...not trolling him?

You're new here, aren't you?
#33 Nov 13 2012 at 10:15 PM Rating: Good
****
5,610 posts
Anza wrote:
Devil's advocate here... if you're in a situation where you're seriously focusing on getting TH upgrades to proc, do you REALLY want a stronger weapon? If you're truly after maximizing TH procs, what you really want is frequent weak attacks. The more times you hit the mob before it dies, the more chances you had to level up TH. So stats you'd like include Haste, DW, DA/TA/QA, Acc. AGI doesn't hurt for the subtle blow. Adding more DMG, STR/Atk, and to some extent DEX (acc is nice but maybe you don't want crits) are actually negatives for what you're trying to do!

If you're fighting something that you have limited opportunities to fight (say, a hard to obtain pop item or a ridiculously long respawn time), that might be the case. But if the only limit to farming a particular mob, even an NM, is time, then you may get better results in the long run by just killing stuff faster, rather than letting the fights drag out in the hopes of what may well be a very marginal increase in the drop rate.

In short: it's situational?
____________________________
Lyonheart, like Eorzia, will be reborn in FFXIV!

FFXI veteran (Lyonheart and Lakiskline of Lakshmi)
1/467 on signed HQ Weskit!!!
#34 Nov 14 2012 at 2:16 AM Rating: Excellent
Sage
***
2,869 posts
Raelix wrote:
Yeah, sounds exactly to me that THFs want free TH without having to wear TH.

Having to keep TH gear on to *gasp* get higher TH levels? What a tragedy!


Even speaking as a THF, I'm with you on this. If you really want to try for as many upgrades as possible, you have to make a sacrifice to DD and wear your TH gear.

And we're not even talking about something that's massively helpful. No THF versus that initial TH7? Significant difference. Getting an extra 1~2 upgrades in a fight when you've already applied TH? Marginal benefit of each additional level is pretty low.

svlyons wrote:
If you're fighting something that you have limited opportunities to fight (say, a hard to obtain pop item or a ridiculously long respawn time), that might be the case. But if the only limit to farming a particular mob, even an NM, is time, then you may get better results in the long run by just killing stuff faster, rather than letting the fights drag out in the hopes of what may well be a very marginal increase in the drop rate.

In short: it's situational?


Absolutely. I'd only shoot for maximum TH upgrades on something that's hard to get a chance to fight.
____________________________
Anza: Titan 2004-2011 / Capuchin: Phoenix 2011-???
#35 Nov 14 2012 at 6:40 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
805 posts
I would rather have the entire TH growth mechanism scrapped entirely so that the only TH level applied to the mob is that you get from the thf's TH level rather than have this situation where the entire job class, in party situations, is forced into a single role for the duration of the fight. And really, the affect of higher levels of TH on the mob is insignificant anyway. The problem is player perception that will force thf's to full time gimp gear.
____________________________
Lokithor
Shiva Server
Linkshell: Soulfire
Rng/Blm/Thf/Brd/Dnc
#36 Nov 14 2012 at 3:02 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
***
2,869 posts
Lokithor wrote:
I would rather have the entire TH growth mechanism scrapped entirely so that the only TH level applied to the mob is that you get from the thf's TH level rather than have this situation where the entire job class, in party situations, is forced into a single role for the duration of the fight. And really, the affect of higher levels of TH on the mob is insignificant anyway. The problem is player perception that will force thf's to full time gimp gear.


The only people I've ever seen "forcing" THFs to fulltime a Thief's Knife are THFs themselves (usually the ones who aren't very good). Other players expect you to stick your TH7 on the mob, which is reasonable, and beyond that my experience is that anything else is viewed as a bonus. Higher levels of TH ARE fairly insignificant, and that's a pretty widely understood concept by everyone - I really doubt there are lots of people who are complaining to THFs because they aren't fulltiming max TH gear.

There are really only a small number of exceptions where everyone will expect the THF to do whatever they can to focus on maximizing TH level for whatever small benefit that brings. Stuff that takes significant time to farm a pop for (say, Kirin or JoL), have expensive pop items (Faffy, KB), or don't spawn often (Tiamat).

And let's be honest here, although THF can certainly contribute solid damage, if you're really inviting someone to focus on being a physical DD there are better choices than a THF. That's just reality, if you want to be accepted as a pure DD, use a pure DD job. And I say this as someone who plays THF.



Edited, Nov 14th 2012 4:04pm by Anza
____________________________
Anza: Titan 2004-2011 / Capuchin: Phoenix 2011-???
#37 Nov 14 2012 at 6:27 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
Avatar
****
6,236 posts
I think it's more common to tell the THF to TH and GTFO than to feed the mob TP, in TH gear or otherwise.

In that manner, THF has the easiest job in the endgame, but some people wanna be thanked and praised for doing everything and wanna cook up this fanciful notion that if they just weren't wearing their TH gear they'd outdamage real DDs.
____________________________
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Airships on fire off the shoulder of Bahamut. I watched Scapula Beams glitter in the dark near the Three Mage Gate...

Nilatai wrote:
Vlorsutes wrote:
There's always...not trolling him?

You're new here, aren't you?
#38 Nov 14 2012 at 7:49 PM Rating: Good
*
64 posts
Lonix wrote:
I actually agree with what they are doing, want TH - simply use it. I know I want to use my other stuffs but at the end of the day only reason my THF comes out is for its TH.

Only problem I have with TH is the atma.. i dont want to buy the addon just for TH... but I know I will!


I agree, its just like any other stat thats on a item. If you want the stat you have to wear it, it is that simple. Totally agree with SE.
#39 Nov 15 2012 at 1:49 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
7,468 posts
Raelix wrote:
I think it's more common to tell the THF to TH and GTFO than to feed the mob TP, in TH gear or otherwise.


Come on man....the TP feed argument really.

Edited, Nov 15th 2012 2:50am by rdmcandie
____________________________
HEY GOOGLE. **** OFF YOU. **** YOUR ******** SEARCH ENGINE IN ITS ******* ****** BINARY ***. ALL DAY LONG.

#40 Nov 15 2012 at 6:14 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
Avatar
****
6,236 posts
rdmcandie wrote:
Raelix wrote:
I think it's more common to tell the THF to TH and GTFO than to feed the mob TP, in TH gear or otherwise.

Come on man....the TP feed argument really.

If the mob is being killed slowly enough for a THF to be a notable fraction of damage dealt, then yes it's a factor. Example: Duo BST Kirin with a THF along to TH. Sumbitch went crazy with Deadly Hold whenever the THF was on him.

If TP feed isn't a factor, as indeed it rarely is, invariably the fight isn't long enough or lowman enough for the THF's damage to matter.
____________________________
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Airships on fire off the shoulder of Bahamut. I watched Scapula Beams glitter in the dark near the Three Mage Gate...

Nilatai wrote:
Vlorsutes wrote:
There's always...not trolling him?

You're new here, aren't you?
#41 Nov 17 2012 at 2:15 PM Rating: Decent
***
1,020 posts
DanQuayle wrote:
Prim wrote:
You say Potato, I say Potato.

Edited, Nov 10th 2012 10:04pm by Prim

I say potatoe.


And I say tater. **** it, late to the party :( This is what I get for failing to check up on the forums....


Edited, Nov 17th 2012 3:18pm by Magicalsquirrel
____________________________
Lots of 99 jobs.
Yeah, I get bored a lot.

"It is better to be silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." -Mark Twain

Reactivated account again 6/1/2013 Yeah, I'm back....again.....and I have a loooot MORE catching up to do.

Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 78 All times are in CDT
Ashtehcat, MouserRDM, Anonymous Guests (76)