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[dev] Increasing Merit Point Caps and adding new CategoriesFollow

#1 Jul 05 2012 at 4:52 PM Rating: Good
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Okipuit wrote:

Good evening, Vana'diel!

As a part of the character growth system, we will be increasing merit caps and adding new categories in the future. However, we will not be removing the cap entirely.

The reason we are not removing this cap is because it would allow players to ultimately max out everything and cause characters to become universal or too versatile.
The whole idea behind merit points is to offer many choices and allow players to choose based on their preferences. This way, even though it’s the same job amongst everyone, their proficiencies and roles are different. With that said, by totally removing the cap from merit points, the fundamental purpose would be lost.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/24269-byr1001-Uncapping-the-Merit-Point-Categories?p=333736#post333736
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#2 Jul 05 2012 at 4:58 PM Rating: Excellent
Here's hoping the Merit WS cap gets a bump.
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#3 Jul 05 2012 at 5:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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I thought the "fundamental purpose" of merit points was grindy-grindy-grind-grind-grind.
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#4 Jul 05 2012 at 5:08 PM Rating: Good
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Aliekber wrote:
I thought the "fundamental purpose" of merit points was grindy-grindy-grind-grind-grind.

The fundamental purpose is to keep us from having nice things.
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#5 Jul 05 2012 at 5:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Oh GAWD, not too versatile!

The horror!


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#6 Jul 05 2012 at 5:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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I still don't agree with the reasoning on keeping category caps, but not gonna complain about higher caps
#7 Jul 05 2012 at 7:15 PM Rating: Good
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I wanted caps removed prior to abyssea, if only because it pandered to SE's grind philosophy. Though, the reality of a job maxing their given options really won't change the game that much and, at worst, gives people who don't/can't play as often a bit of fuel in complaining about not being optimal. However, said people should also only be focusing on 1-3 jobs tops, while those really hurting for this could have anywhere from 4-20 (soon to be 22) decently geared.

But I do believe the merit WS should take a priority here over any debate over other categories. 5, minimum, should be the possibility to cap. I'd still like to see them all attainable, though. They could even make it more complicated to do like having some long grind quest once you've got all your points spent.
#8 Jul 05 2012 at 9:00 PM Rating: Good
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The inability to max out all merits on a character in order to encourage different playstyles is, in principle, a good idea. And they got it much better with new jobs since they have many tempting categories that you want to max out, as opposed to most old jobs where there's only a couple good choices, if that.
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#9 Jul 05 2012 at 9:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Still, there's a point where you'd be better off just leveling a second or third characters these days with merits remaining as they are. And with the ability to mule a lot of R/E stuff, it's even easier to do. I can understand the intent of wanting people to be unique in practice, but the implementation just leads to cookie cutter builds in a lot of cases, which is basically the opposite of variety. Differences in gear and actual skill level (macro management, response times, ability use) should be the true differentiators.

As for the "WE ALL LOOK THE SAME!" that tends to come up in this debate, people should keep railing on SE for wardrobe slots, if only for the secondary reason of eliminating blinking when gear swapping.
#10 Jul 05 2012 at 10:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
As for the "WE ALL LOOK THE SAME!" that tends to come up in this debate, people should keep railing on SE for wardrobe slots, if only for the secondary reason of eliminating blinking when gear swapping.


That's still a useful strategy in some cases though - "blink" casting comes to mind.

Still, it would be nice to be able to set your look independently of your stats, I'd run around in my AF most of the time; at the moment I regularly swap bits of it in and out as needed for specific spells, but rarely am I wearing the full set outside of town.
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#11 Jul 05 2012 at 11:49 PM Rating: Decent
I was just wondering this morning if they were going to increase the merit caps since they are adding jobs.
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#12 Jul 06 2012 at 1:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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The new merit point categories coming:
Geomancer
Rune Fencer

...that is all.

Being able to spend more merits is always a good thing, but their philosophy about keeping players unique falls flat on its face. The sad truth is there are merits out there which just aren't worth maxing (Protectra V anyone?) and others which see such little niche use that many choose to skip over them entirely (Altruism, Tranquility, Equanimity). They can see this already just by reviewing their own recent census.

In the end, players will max out the categories which have the most pronounced effect whilst avoiding the ones which aren't as good, which means ultimately everyone is still the same.
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#13 Jul 06 2012 at 2:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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I dont understand. What's the point of creating caps for distribution for the reason of being diverse and not all exactly the same, when everyone and their grandmother merits the exact same things anyhow? There's no way you wouldnt merit some things unless you either had no idea what in altana's name you were doing or if you were simply trolling.

Warrior? Double Attack Rate 5/5, Red Mage? Convert 5/5, White mage? Cure recast time. Sentinel? Reward Recast? There's so few actual choices for jobs to merit. I've never heard a Ninja say, "Oh, i'm going to merit Sange in favor of Ninja Tool Expertise or Elemental San's". It just doesnt happen unless you have no clue what you're doing. Most jobs have atleast one pick they need for sure, others even both picks you need to 5/5. And often times it's not even because those merits are good, it's because the other ones are absolute rubbish compared to them.

If there werent any caps, then perhaps some of the merit abilities and spells would be used. Right now everyone does the exact same things anyhow.

They should just make it that unlocking doesnt count towards the cap, only the actual upgrading would.

Edited, Jul 6th 2012 10:35am by KojiroSoma
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#14 Jul 06 2012 at 4:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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KojiroSoma wrote:


They should just make it that unlocking doesnt count towards the cap, only the actual upgrading would.

Edited, Jul 6th 2012 10:35am by KojiroSoma


Never thought of that, but it is a really good idea.
#15 Jul 06 2012 at 5:01 AM Rating: Decent
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I am with them increasing merits but not letting someone merit 5/5 on all 9 weaponskills.

5/5 on 5 weaponskills would br cool.

It also be nice if they added merits for the emp/relic/mythric weaponskills. make it like 15 merits in each catagory.

As for magic elemental Accuracy or MaB on the element would be cool.
#16 Jul 06 2012 at 5:57 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Being able to spend more merits is always a good thing, but their philosophy about keeping players unique falls flat on its face. The sad truth is there are merits out there which just aren't worth maxing (Protectra V anyone?) and others which see such little niche use that many choose to skip over them entirely (Altruism, Tranquility, Equanimity). They can see this already just by reviewing their own recent census.

In the end, players will max out the categories which have the most pronounced effect whilst avoiding the ones which aren't as good, which means ultimately everyone is still the same.


Been saying the same thing for years now, and all of that is precisely why I think their excuse of wanting to keep players "unique" is bullsh*t.
#17 Jul 06 2012 at 2:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
Being able to spend more merits is always a good thing, but their philosophy about keeping players unique falls flat on its face. The sad truth is there are merits out there which just aren't worth maxing (Protectra V anyone?) and others which see such little niche use that many choose to skip over them entirely (Altruism, Tranquility, Equanimity). They can see this already just by reviewing their own recent census.

In the end, players will max out the categories which have the most pronounced effect whilst avoiding the ones which aren't as good, which means ultimately everyone is still the same.


Been saying the same thing for years now, and all of that is precisely why I think their excuse of wanting to keep players "unique" is bullsh*t.

Most of us have been saying this for years, but it falls on deaf ears because SE doesn't give a flying @#%^ what we think, and the people who are adamant that they must be unique snowflakes aren't easily swayed as to why them being "different" is in now way "useful" "helpful" "a good idea" or "actually successfully being different" Smiley: glare
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#18 Jul 06 2012 at 4:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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The people that wanna be different can't be convinced at being helpful, because that's not what they're interested in. Just as you can't be convinced at accommodating their irregularity, because irregular play isn't what you're interested in.

Mind you, I'm not defending either side, I'm just saying it's senseless to vilify them for not being helpful when that was never their intention. But, those people insistent on being different aren't the problem.

The problem (and you mentioned this), is the devs insistent on bottlenecking the options such that those who prefer "the different" and those that prefer "the useful," will never be able to cooperate.
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#19 Jul 06 2012 at 4:32 PM Rating: Default
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Honestly, and I know this is going to be downvoted to the 7th layer of hell, I don't want merits to be unlocked and increased. I can see the use in a few more of the Weapon Skills being attainable, but I like the fact that, right now, people are forced to specialize. That is, after all, what the merit system was designed for, not just to super charge your attributes, but to allow you to become an expert THIS or THAT, while Gus over there can become an exceptional That Other Thing.

It's not about trying to be "different" just to oppose the idea. I just think it takes away something that should be there.


Edited, Jul 6th 2012 6:48pm by SFChakan
#20 Jul 06 2012 at 6:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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SunriderRagnarok wrote:
The people that wanna be different can't be convinced at being helpful, because that's not what they're interested in. Just as you can't be convinced at accommodating their irregularity, because irregular play isn't what you're interested in.

Mind you, I'm not defending either side, I'm just saying it's senseless to vilify them for not being helpful when that was never their intention. But, those people insistent on being different aren't the problem.

The problem (and you mentioned this), is the devs insistent on bottlenecking the options such that those who prefer "the different" and those that prefer "the useful," will never be able to cooperate.

I don't see how any amount of changes by SE would bring those two camps together. If SE removed all merit caps, people who want to be different will still try to be different, whether it's accomplished through merit choices (which stuff you merit first), gear choices, or play style choices.
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#21 Jul 06 2012 at 7:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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SFChakan wrote:
Honestly, and I know this is going to be downvoted to the 7th layer of hell, I don't want merits to be unlocked and increased. I can see the use in a few more of the Weapon Skills being attainable, but I like the fact that, right now, people are forced to specialize. That is, after all, what the merit system was designed for, not just to super charge your attributes, but to allow you to become an expert THIS or THAT, while Gus over there can become an exceptional That Other Thing.

It's not about trying to be "different" just to oppose the idea. I just think it takes away something that should be there.


Edited, Jul 6th 2012 6:48pm by SFChakan
The only reason you'll get rated down for that post is because you complained about karma. Whining about karma = automatic rate downs, regardless of post content. That said, I would be fine with the way they're set up now if all the weapon skills had equal value in terms of how much they improved performance. As it stands, that's not even remotely the case. Half of them are only situationally useful, or are side-grades to other pre-existing ws, several them are totally worthless, and the ones that are left are so @#%^ing strong the rest of the ws aren't even worth touching if ANY of what's left can be of use to you.

svlyons wrote:
SunriderRagnarok wrote:
The people that wanna be different can't be convinced at being helpful, because that's not what they're interested in. Just as you can't be convinced at accommodating their irregularity, because irregular play isn't what you're interested in.

Mind you, I'm not defending either side, I'm just saying it's senseless to vilify them for not being helpful when that was never their intention. But, those people insistent on being different aren't the problem.

The problem (and you mentioned this), is the devs insistent on bottlenecking the options such that those who prefer "the different" and those that prefer "the useful," will never be able to cooperate.

I don't see how any amount of changes by SE would bring those two camps together. If SE removed all merit caps, people who want to be different will still try to be different, whether it's accomplished through merit choices (which stuff you merit first), gear choices, or play style choices.

Honestly, the problem lies less with the people who want to be "different", and more with the people who want to be "unique snowflakes." The difference between those two lies in degree. The people who want to be "different" play non-optimal jobs in situations they'd be better off using something else, which is fine, so long as it doesn't completely @#%^ over everyone else involved (ie: one player's monthly fee does not outweigh the combined monthly fees of everyone else in his party, so he is responsible for not being a complete waste of a slot). Non-optimal set ups are entirely workable if the people involved are remotely intelligent. What I was referencing were the "unique snowflakes" who insist on only doing stupid sh*t and refusing to budge, but expecting everyone else to just accept their stupidity.

To compare the two, take two scenarios;
First, take someone who has multiple well geared jobs, including, say, war, mnk, rdm, cor, pup, and nin. and when invited to a zerg, he chooses pup, because he's played nothing but mnk and war for three months straight. Pup is not a zerg job, and everyone knows it. (Reminder: I'm one of the big pup advocates, and it's my favorite job by a wide margin). That said, if the pup is well geared and a competent player, they're perfectly acceptable in the slot, since the net loss in damage from pup to mnk or war of equal gear quality is relatively small, especially in a zerg alliance (unless you ask a hyper-zealot minmaxer, but no one gives a @#%^ what they think except other hyper-zealot minmaxers) so while this person is choosing to be different, no real harm comes from it.

Compare that to someone like... Anna. For those who don't know/remember, Anna was an obnoxious twit who paraded around the forums crying prejudice because he (no one's really sure why the guy ended up being called "Anna") wasn't accepted for his non-cookie cutter job combo. On the surface, you'd think he had a legit complaint, until you realize that these combos were Whm/thf and thf/whm, and he absolutely refused to sub anything else with either job. Then dnc came out, and he made matters worse by thinking he was awesome because he played dnc/whm. It didn't help that from what anyone from his server ever said, he was terrible at any of the jobs he played anyway.

I, personally, fall into the "do whatever you want, so long as you don't @#%^ with my game, or if you do @#%^ with it, you do it in an excellent/hilarious fashon" camp.
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Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#22 Jul 06 2012 at 9:10 PM Rating: Default
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Lady Jinte wrote:
SFChakan wrote:
Honestly, and I know this is going to be downvoted to the 7th layer of hell, I don't want merits to be unlocked and increased. I can see the use in a few more of the Weapon Skills being attainable, but I like the fact that, right now, people are forced to specialize. That is, after all, what the merit system was designed for, not just to super charge your attributes, but to allow you to become an expert THIS or THAT, while Gus over there can become an exceptional That Other Thing.

It's not about trying to be "different" just to oppose the idea. I just think it takes away something that should be there.


Edited, Jul 6th 2012 6:48pm by SFChakan
The only reason you'll get rated down for that post is because you complained about karma. Whining about karma = automatic rate downs, regardless of post content. That said, I would be fine with the way they're set up now if all the weapon skills had equal value in terms of how much they improved performance. As it stands, that's not even remotely the case. Half of them are only situationally useful, or are side-grades to other pre-existing ws, several them are totally worthless, and the ones that are left are so @#%^ing strong the rest of the ws aren't even worth touching if ANY of what's left can be of use to you.


Not a chance, I'm the only person giving the other side of the argument. People are too simple minded to see the advantages of NO CHANGE other than past their own greed for GIVE ME ALL THE THINGS! After this many years, I know how the FFXI fan community works. Hivemind or GTFO.

Edited, Jul 6th 2012 11:11pm by SFChakan
#23 Jul 06 2012 at 9:22 PM Rating: Good
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I'm curious as to how this "Anna" argued his(her???) case for THF/WHM and vice versa or dnc/whm and whether this person was actually just deliberately trolling you to high hell.
#24 Jul 06 2012 at 9:25 PM Rating: Good
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GLGunblade wrote:
I'm curious as to how this "Anna" argued his(her???) case for THF/WHM and vice versa or dnc/whm and whether this person was actually just deliberately trolling you to high hell.


No, they were RL retarded and really just clueless about everything. It was kind of sad.
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Sounds like quality reading material :D
Where can i find it? :P
#26 Jul 06 2012 at 10:56 PM Rating: Decent
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I normally don't agree with SE, but I 100% agree with SE on this one.

KojiroSoma wrote:
I dont understand. What's the point of creating caps for distribution for the reason of being diverse and not all exactly the same, when everyone and their grandmother merits the exact same things anyhow? There's no way you wouldnt merit some things unless you either had no idea what in altana's name you were doing or if you were simply trolling.

Warrior? Double Attack Rate 5/5, Red Mage? Convert 5/5, White mage? Cure recast time. Sentinel? Reward Recast? There's so few actual choices for jobs to merit. I've never heard a Ninja say, "Oh, i'm going to merit Sange in favor of Ninja Tool Expertise or Elemental San's". It just doesnt happen unless you have no clue what you're doing. Most jobs have atleast one pick they need for sure, others even both picks you need to 5/5. And often times it's not even because those merits are good, it's because the other ones are absolute rubbish compared to them.

Edited, Jul 6th 2012 10:35am by KojiroSoma


Because not everyone SHOULD merit the same things. We've created this "cookie cutter" environment where things aren't used. Granted, some things are more worthless than others, but on the same token, some things aren't as useless as deem.

If you look at the RDM group II category, the only spell that is arguably "worthless" in most scenarios is Blind II. Some people went all out on Para II. Others weren't satisfied with the randomness and just put 1 in it and used para I. Some went all out on Slow II, others realized that they can just as easily pimp out slow I and use their merits on something else. Dia III was idea for TP burns. BIO III was a no-brainer for the solo-kiters. Phalanx II was a must for RDMs with static groups or link shells. However, if you had multiple RDMS with maxed phalanx II, wouldn't you be better off to the team with an enfeeble that the others don't have maxed out?


SunriderRagnarok wrote:
The people that wanna be different can't be convinced at being helpful, because that's not what they're interested in. Just as you can't be convinced at accommodating their irregularity, because irregular play isn't what you're interested in.

Mind you, I'm not defending either side, I'm just saying it's senseless to vilify them for not being helpful when that was never their intention. But, those people insistent on being different aren't the problem.

The problem (and you mentioned this), is the devs insistent on bottlenecking the options such that those who prefer "the different" and those that prefer "the useful," will never be able to cooperate.


A major part of the problem is the population who label different as "useless". The people who play this game get stuck in one way of doing things and everything else is "wrong". There is a such thing as "useless", but people have let their "max/min" mentality inaccurately determine what actually works or not or even trying anything differently.

I remember back in the day when there were mages in parties and everyone always subbed whm and subbing blm was "less than optimal". Well, if there's a WHM/SMN in the party, then you are more beneficial subbing BLM than WHM. For anyone who has leveled in the Mire, you know what I mean, but people still got stuck on subbing whm.

Take a look at the diversity and changes of WARs throughout the time.

I can go on and on about the changes of playing styles throughout the years that all steemed from someone trying something different.
#27 Jul 07 2012 at 12:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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More obvious merit choices aside, I feel like some are leading a bit too hard in the defense of the current merit system's flaws.

EXP needed a purpose in the post-75 game, and the risk of deleveling was perhaps not enough. While you'd have people commonly dying like tanks, crowd controlling BLMs, or sac pulling THFs in endgame events, people needed motivation to help these individuals regain their EXP and thus stay useful in 75 content. The perversion of this concept by FFXI's min/max community can easily fuel the belief of specialization, but that would only be true if SE really emphasized variety with the merit system.

In the end, the merit scheme resulted in roughly a couple levels of stats (STR/DEX/etc. aside) without the benefits of level correction playing into damage formulas. A few points of ACC/ATK are unlikely to be a deal breaker if your gear is otherwise up to snuff. Actual abilities being locked behind merits has been a bane for the classes who've had to deal with it, nevermind the actual functionality of some of these. But instead of just saying, "Here, have a couple more EXP levels!" we get the more obvious grind alternative that's like 10x more EXP. SE doesn't have your uniqueness in mind. They just wanted us to play longer knowing we had something to dump EXP into.

Fast forward to an era where EXP is more abundant and fully capping a job after level isn't a very difficult task. Just upping the max merit cap to 30 helped this process immensely since you could cap two T1 categories in a single session. Unsurprisingly, people fishing for more things to spend EXP on so it wouldn't go to waste turned to leveling other jobs they might not have in the old days. This can offer some insight on how a class works if you hadn't researched it much beforehand. It improves your versatility for events if you keep said job(s) geared. It gives you something to do, both in leveling and chasing gear for it. It helps take the sting out of doing something you'd probably rather not be doing when all there is to get out of it is some EXP. And I'm most definitely of the mind that being flexible is essential the smaller the community gets due to age, boredom, newer games, or whatever.

But of course, you'll never be "as good" as the other guy even though you're more than capable of spending the time to be just because the game wags its finger at you and says "Nope!" That guy who wants to be a one-job-wonder Super Monk can still be a Super Monk, and he'd even improve if restrictions were lifted. However, I'm certain there are many who take offense to the thought of said Super Monk wanting to screw other people out of progress because they chose to play the game differently. All for what, some H2H, Guard, and Evasion merits? Forgive me while I chuckle at the concept of these being one those fights not worth fighting. But as myself and others have said before, differences will still exist in your actual gear and knowledge. Sorry Mr. Super Monk if that guy who leveled and geared 19 other jobs is a better player than you, but as far as I'm concerned, he earned that distinction and should not have to settle for being second rate to spare your feelings.

It isn't a hand out. It isn't asking for something for nothing. It's just a classic example of people wanting to be rewarded for their time. Entitlement has become one those MMO troll words these days, but progression is pretty much what MMOs are about. And when people don't feel like they're progressing, they start looking into other forms of entertainment. FFXI's merit system needs brought up with the times. We'll be getting that to a degree with the new 2 hours, but I say that's not enough. Tier 3 merits? Further specializing WS, as an example, so a RDM using CDC could get MP back? The possibilities are pretty much endless, and the irony is that the more SE does build on the system, the more those demanding uniqueness could actually get their wish since fresh-levelers would still have catching up to do. They'd just still be able to catch up if they cared enough to. Pair this with fresh and rewarding content and I dare say we actually have a good game on our hands again.
#28 Jul 07 2012 at 7:15 AM Rating: Default
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Seriha wrote:
More obvious merit choices aside, I feel like some are leading a bit too hard in the defense of the current merit system's flaws.


I'm not necessarily favoring the entire system, I'm just against the thought of uncapped merits. I believe that there should be a wide group of merits where players have to choose based off of their playing style which one they want.

Seriha wrote:
SE doesn't have your uniqueness in mind. They just wanted us to play longer knowing we had something to dump EXP into.


I don't think this is entirely true. If there were no cap on categories, then there wouldn't be a cap on the time spent maxing out your character. With a cap, there's a finite amount of hours that can be spent on the merits of your character.

This isn't all or nothing. I agree that some work on merits needs to be done, but let's be fair, isn't that exactly what they've been doing recently? Having to merit abilities from a 20 min recast to a 10 min recast was a little too harsh. Now, the abilities start off at a 10 min recast and your following merits enhance the ability. I think that's better and that's what they did. Too many people were running around with no Devotion or Martyr. It's time like those when the "cookie-cutter" hurts game play.

Seriha wrote:

Fast forward to an era where EXP is more abundant and fully capping a job after level isn't a very difficult task. Just upping the max merit cap to 30 helped this process immensely since you could cap two T1 categories in a single session. Unsurprisingly, people fishing for more things to spend EXP on so it wouldn't go to waste turned to leveling other jobs they might not have in the old days. This can offer some insight on how a class works if you hadn't researched it much beforehand. It improves your versatility for events if you keep said job(s) geared. It gives you something to do, both in leveling and chasing gear for it. It helps take the sting out of doing something you'd probably rather not be doing when all there is to get out of it is some EXP. And I'm most definitely of the mind that being flexible is essential the smaller the community gets due to age, boredom, newer games, or whatever.


Ironically, I think your accusation above is more fitting here. Limiting mertis to 30 is most definitely a way to make you grind more. Even though it sucks, there has to be implementations to make you play more and this is a legitimate one, much better than 3 hour pop windows. With uncapped merit storage, a person would just spend an entire day or two getting all merits and be completely DONE with meriting. Once that happens, people then will complain about "being bored".

No one likes grinding, but be honest with yourself, A person capped out on merits as a 75 back in the day was an accomplishment, now it's nothing.


Seriha wrote:
But of course, you'll never be "as good" as the other guy even though you're more than capable of spending the time to be just because the game wags its finger at you and says "Nope!" That guy who wants to be a one-job-wonder Super Monk can still be a Super Monk, and he'd even improve if restrictions were lifted. However, I'm certain there are many who take offense to the thought of said Super Monk wanting to screw other people out of progress because they chose to play the game differently. All for what, some H2H, Guard, and Evasion merits? Forgive me while I chuckle at the concept of these being one those fights not worth fighting. But as myself and others have said before, differences will still exist in your actual gear and knowledge. Sorry Mr. Super Monk if that guy who leveled and geared 19 other jobs is a better player than you, but as far as I'm concerned, he earned that distinction and should not have to settle for being second rate to spare your feelings.


What's the point of having different classes/jobs if people will just gear to "SUPER" jobs that just does it all? Why is everyone so excited for 2 jobs that are essentially recycled other jobs that play "differently"?

That's been the case for every new job that's come out. People like being different, then their max/min mentality skews their thoughts of the game. Look at PUP. MNKs complained that there was another H2H job out there. People didn't play PUP because they didn't have an "A" in H2H, totally disregarding that the difference is made up with the puppet that can cast tier IV spells. Don't even get me started on RDM-melee. The bottom line is that people inherently want to be unique, but they get so caught up in putting up high numbers, that they don't accurately analyze the input/output on anything differently.

Case and point: There was a time if you didn't see 200 xp per IT++ kill, then xp was too slow. It wasn't until someone said, "Hey, why don't we just chain VT's? XP per kill is a little less, but we make it up from the time we save on not resting, raising and overall killspeed".

Seriha wrote:
It isn't a hand out. It isn't asking for something for nothing. It's just a classic example of people wanting to be rewarded for their time. Entitlement has become one those MMO troll words these days, but progression is pretty much what MMOs are about. And when people don't feel like they're progressing, they start looking into other forms of entertainment.


I agree and uncapping merits simply isn't the answer. It's not a long lasting answer. You'll have a rush at the start, but once you're capped, you'll be left twiddling your thumbs looking for that entertainment anyway.

Seriha wrote:
FFXI's merit system needs brought up with the times. We'll be getting that to a degree with the new 2 hours, but I say that's not enough. Tier 3 merits? Further specializing WS, as an example, so a RDM using CDC could get MP back? The possibilities are pretty much endless, and the irony is that the more SE does build on the system, the more those demanding uniqueness could actually get their wish since fresh-levelers would still have catching up to do. They'd just still be able to catch up if they cared enough to. .


CDC that brings back mp is a horrible idea. If you're going enhance it, then enhance it melee wise, not magic wise. If you want a magic WS than gains MP, then introduce a magic weapon skill that does the what Sanguine does for MP.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You want everything all at once. You say that you don't want a handout, but that's what it sounds like. If you're a RDM and you're concerned about MP, then don't melee. There has to be a trade off to be efficient in both areas. That's why RDM-melee players suck so much is because they don't know how to balance and balancing it is an art that people are just too lazy to do. People want every stat on gear so they don't have to swap gear and still be able cure,enfeeble and melee. If you're putting up high melee numbers as a mage, then you should lose some magic stats.

Seriha wrote:
Pair this with fresh and rewarding content and I dare say we actually have a good game on our hands again


As long as the player base continues to pigeon-hole game play, overall satisfaction will only be temporary. It'll be like Abyssea all over again. It started off as "invite everyone for procs!!" back to "if you're not job x,y or z, then GTFO".
#29 Jul 07 2012 at 7:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
There was a time if you didn't see 200 xp per IT++ kill, then xp was too slow. It wasn't until someone said, "Hey, why don't we just chain VT's? XP per kill is a little less, but we make it up from the time we save on not resting, raising and overall killspeed".

Not to toot my own horn as much as I usually do, but I swear I was that person...
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#30 Jul 07 2012 at 8:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Raelix wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
There was a time if you didn't see 200 xp per IT++ kill, then xp was too slow. It wasn't until someone said, "Hey, why don't we just chain VT's? XP per kill is a little less, but we make it up from the time we save on not resting, raising and overall killspeed".

Not to toot my own horn as much as I usually do, but I swear I was that person...


Well, thank you if you were lol..

I always bring up Operation Desert Storm. I remember there were only 2 options. All BLMs (maybe RDM) or all 74DD/nin. There was nothing in between. I remember one person shouting specifically for DRGs.. I would just shout for people who could "solo" (they all said that they could, some just better than others) and we would always be successful.

Just the other day, someone was shouting for SMNs for LB10. I told the individual, just ask for people then sort out the jobs later.

Don't get me wrong, I'm about as ignorant as they come to game mechanics, but as I learn how things are played via cookie-cutter, I take the time out to analyze how things work and possible alternatives.
#31 Jul 07 2012 at 9:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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Warning: Sleep deprived rambling to follow.

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CDC that brings back mp is a horrible idea. If you're going enhance it, then enhance it melee wise, not magic wise. If you want a magic WS than gains MP, then introduce a magic weapon skill that does the what Sanguine does for MP.


Well, if we want to dive deep into creative concepts, that actually wouldn't be the only choice for CDC. Rather, look at the jobs who use the WS and then stylize merits out of something they could take advantage of. MP can be useful for PLD, BLU, and RDM sure, but what if while the AM was up everyone else in your party gets their enmity reduced by what you gain? The next BLU spell has a chance to SC with CA? Enfeebles landed are 50% stronger? Babbling much further won't change much on the matter, though. The main point was that if merits were meant to promote some kind of specialization, they can't half-ass it. But you still gotta be careful you just don't create the next cookie cutter craze, which is unfortunately what the current limitations promote. "Merit X or you're an idiot." Enter dilemma where people aren't idiots, but can't merit something because they fancied another job first and don't want to "waste" that investment.


But in reality, the merit system itself isn't the only way to acquire new spells or abilities. How about more job-specific quests that reward you with such? I'd still like to see fan service cameo BCs where players can take on past FF characters, and the framework is pretty much there with all the dimensional Atomos wtf-ery. Beat Cecil and he can teach you to be a better Paladin. Hell, keep beating him to pile on more abilities.

But limits equate to stagnation, and stagnation is MMO death. I'm not saying lift the 30 cap. I can appreciate instilling a bit of sanity to the grind in that regard. And for most average people, that's probably a 3 hour or more session, start to finish. I'm more for upping the other freedoms while continuing to build on what's present. But don't stop there, no. Enjoyable content to actually utilize said growth in is also important.

Part of the reason why I dropped my sub actually involved the merit issue. I'd leveled 18 of the 20 jobs to 90 while that was the cap and also filled out their merits. When 99 hit, naturally my preferred jobs with the first to 99, with some of the tertiary following just because. But it was also at this point where I start getting frustratingly picky about things like my WS choices. I pretty much did whatever my LS needed thanks to my job spread, for better or worse. I could maybe rule out the one-job WS like Shun or Shoha, since neither NIN nor SAM were up in my priority, but it got trickier weighing dagger, sword, great sword, scythe, axe, and great axe. You can guess which jobs I often was through that, I imagine.

Other reasons naturally involved the post-Abyssea slump in content with the seeming return of the old dev ways. My personal job balance issues aside, I saw stagnation. I saw the Empyrean cockblock. I saw VW's crappy reward system. I could flesh out some +2s I'd been slacking on, but then what? Just trudge along for other people with no promise of character growth in the near future? If the resulting counterpoint is that I simply played FFXI too much, that might be true to a degree, but I'm not trying to snub my nose at those who couldn't do the same by holding them to my own personal standards. Merits are something everyone can get. Not everyone has to level every job. I certainly couldn't play 20 jobs at once, but losing out on something because LS Career WHM couldn't log on for the night, so I play filler, is neither fair to myself nor the rest of my LS. We can get by, sure, but it could mean a shift in tactics and maybe someone else also having to play a lesser merited job. sh*t can just roll downhill from there, you know?

So, yeah, people who can't play as often could still stick to their mains. A BLU with max T1 and T2 merits isn't going to break the game. Hell, I'm still of the mind that 10m timers and the like on JAs are nauseatingly long, merited or not. Our resident BLU's around? Good for him, he can do his thing. He's not? No worries, I got it covered. Not trying to steal his role. Not trying to say I'm better by default. If the situation came up where people would prefer me on BLU over him while he's on, then it's possible he's lacking elsewhere, and at the very least we could try to brainstorm on why. Could be a gear thing. Could be a playstyle thing. I dunno. And we'd never know if the idea is shot down due to a mixed up sense of individuality when it can still exist. Referencing said BLU, for example, I know he didn't carry an INT/MATK and MND set because he didn't believe they were worth it. Hey, look at that, different levels of preparation. He makes that choice, not the game. And hey, maybe I'd like to use Convergence someday, but just as I dislike how RDMs need their full +2 set to do what the Composure bonus should by default, I'm not particularly keen on needing it both a piece of gear and full merits to get the most out of it. Until then, both the JA and gear may as well not exist for me, and that leads to omitting content the more you start adding such examples up.
#32 Jul 07 2012 at 1:26 PM Rating: Good
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Warning: Sleep deprived rambling to follow.

Lol, no worries, my last response was the same way.

Seriha wrote:
Well, if we want to dive deep into creative concepts, that actually wouldn't be the only choice for CDC. Rather, look at the jobs who use the WS and then stylize merits out of something they could take advantage of. MP can be useful for PLD, BLU, and RDM sure, but what if while the AM was up everyone else in your party gets their enmity reduced by what you gain? The next BLU spell has a chance to SC with CA? Enfeebles landed are 50% stronger? Babbling much further won't change much on the matter, though.


I see your point, but instead of making one super weapon skill that everyone will use, buff up the other 19 sword weapon skills. Just for an example, allow fast blade to enable the next BLU spell to SC with CA. Allow Burning Blade to absorb MP and Savage Blade to enhance 50% stronger enfeebles. The point is that if you want to have the "Uber damage WS", then that's fine, but that same WS shouldn't be giving you other non-damage enhancements. By allowing gamers to enhance their weaker damage WS's with the aforesaid enhancements, you have now diversified the playing field.

We all see those awesome new weapon skills, but then they become boring rather quickly when an alliance full of DDs are spamming it nonstop.


Seriha wrote:
The main point was that if merits were meant to promote some kind of specialization, they can't half-ass it. But you still gotta be careful you just don't create the next cookie cutter craze, which is unfortunately what the current limitations promote. "Merit X or you're an idiot." Enter dilemma where people aren't idiots, but can't merit something because they fancied another job first and don't want to "waste" that investment.


You have it backwards. Although SE could do more to help diversify the playing field, ultimately its' the player base that has been pigeon holing people into cookie cutters. It doesn't matter what SE does, if calculations show a .0001 difference in something between job x and job y, then one of those jobs suck because it isn't the "best" in that category. That totally overlooks the other possible benefits that job could bring.

So, until the player base get out of their "max/min" mentality, they will never see those other benefits, because they are so stuck on "attribute fad A" being at 100%. One day it was maxing out accuracy, then it became maxing out haste. I argued for years on the benefit of magic accuracy. Everyone ridiculed the RDM JSE wise gear for having m.Acc, saying that was wasting gear slots, because we have level 1 merits. Now, everyone and their momma wants M.Acc and will spend top dollar for it even though it's much more available now than before.

Seriha wrote:
But limits equate to stagnation, and stagnation is MMO death. I'm not saying lift the 30 cap. I can appreciate instilling a bit of sanity to the grind in that regard. And for most average people, that's probably a 3 hour or more session, start to finish. I'm more for upping the other freedoms while continuing to build on what's present. But don't stop there, no. Enjoyable content to actually utilize said growth in is also important.


Don't confuse my wants. Just because I'm against unlimited meriting in a certain ability, trait, spell, etc. doesn't mean I don't support new things to play with. I fully support a constant add of new abilities, traits, etc via merit points. My point is that each player should have to make a decision, do I want uber spell x with a weak spell y or do I want a decent spell x and spell y? I'm against a player having UBER everything, which is exactly what the result will be from unlimited stat meriting.

By forcing individuals to think and choose, that's the ultimate way to diversify the game. Whether or not you fall victim to the player base pigeon holing you into a certain set up, that's on you. Think about when level II merits first came out with only 6 merits to use. That was a little extreme, but something along those lines.

Seriha wrote:
Other reasons naturally involved the post-Abyssea slump in content with the seeming return of the old dev ways. My personal job balance issues aside, I saw stagnation. I saw the Empyrean cockblock. I saw VW's crappy reward system. I could flesh out some +2s I'd been slacking on, but then what? Just trudge along for other people with no promise of character growth in the near future? If the resulting counterpoint is that I simply played FFXI too much, that might be true to a degree, but I'm not trying to snub my nose at those who couldn't do the same by holding them to my own personal standards. Merits are something everyone can get. Not everyone has to level every job. I certainly couldn't play 20 jobs at once, but losing out on something because LS Career WHM couldn't log on for the night, so I play filler, is neither fair to myself nor the rest of my LS. We can get by, sure, but it could mean a shift in tactics and maybe someone else also having to play a lesser merited job. sh*t can just roll downhill from there, you know?


This sounds like your problem is more with the over all game itself. That's cool, but merits aren't the answer. Instead of just uncapping merits, SE needs to revisit all of the other side events and make them worthwhile, Besesiged, Campaign, Expeditionary Force, Chocobo racing, Ballista, etc. Have each event provide special tags that when put together allows you access to an ability, uber item, etc.

You don't see it, but the bulk of the issue is with the player base. The second they do a benefit analysis of doing something, anything that falls short is tossed to the side. To counter that, SE has to FORCE players to do a certain thing in order to get something. I would go as far as having a level sync NPC in every old school xp camp (i.e. a NPC in Qufim that allows you to sync from 20-25) where mobs in certain regions at certain levels killed by a party of 6 or less yields a special aforementioned tag.

So many kills, damage points, wins, etc. in Beseiged, Dynamis, Limbus, EF, Campgan, etc. at a certain level yields their own unique tag.

Seriha wrote:
Could be a playstyle thing. I dunno. And we'd never know if the idea is shot down due to a mixed up sense of individuality when it can still exist. Referencing said BLU, for example, I know he didn't carry an INT/MATK and MND set because he didn't believe they were worth it. Hey, look at that, different levels of preparation. He makes that choice, not the game. And hey, maybe I'd like to use Convergence someday, but just as I dislike how RDMs need their full +2 set to do what the Composure bonus should by default, I'm not particularly keen on needing it both a piece of gear and full merits to get the most out of it. Until then, both the JA and gear may as well not exist for me, and that leads to omitting content the more you start adding such examples up.


It is definitely a playing style. Composure should definitely not be that way by default. RDM is and always was a self-buffer.That's why RDM doesn't have AoE spells. The players trying to pigeon hole RDM to be a Pink Mage in order to maximize DDs/buffers is just another example of the max/min mentality.
#33 Jul 07 2012 at 1:41 PM Rating: Good
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GLGunblade wrote:
I'm curious as to how this "Anna" argued his(her???) case for THF/WHM and vice versa or dnc/whm and whether this person was actually just deliberately trolling you to high hell.


Said "Anna" is (was? I haven't been here in a while) known as Clefairy on this site. Consider yourself warned.
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I was driving to work this morning, just zoning out, listening to my radio, and out of the corner of my eye, I saw a BLACK MAGE TARU HEALING ON THE SIDE OF THE ROAD! For one split second, I thought "Omg he needs to get out of there he's gonna aggro... what a noob."

Then, I realised it was a black garbage bag left out for pick up.

#34 Jul 07 2012 at 9:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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GLGunblade wrote:
I'm curious as to how this "Anna" argued his(her???) case for THF/WHM and vice versa or dnc/whm and whether this person was actually just deliberately trolling you to high hell.

Forum menu -> forum search -> All Fields "whm", author "Clefairy". Start from 2006 and work your way forward. Make popcorn.

Alternatively- start with the popcorn.
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#35 Jul 08 2012 at 12:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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SunriderRagnarok wrote:
The people that wanna be different can't be convinced at being helpful, because that's not what they're interested in. Just as you can't be convinced at accommodating their irregularity, because irregular play isn't what you're interested in.

Mind you, I'm not defending either side, I'm just saying it's senseless to vilify them for not being helpful when that was never their intention. But, those people insistent on being different aren't the problem.

The problem (and you mentioned this), is the devs insistent on bottlenecking the options such that those who prefer "the different" and those that prefer "the useful," will never be able to cooperate.
Indeed. It'd be one thing if the categories were all useful or more for the purposes of flavor while keeping each job pretty much at the same level of usefulness mechanics-wise. That's not exactly what happens. The guy going 5/5 Fire accuracy is fail and the guy going 5/5 Ice accuracy is "good". The guy putting points in Weapon Bash cooldown sucks and the guy spending them on Last Resort cooldown is good. The choices are really lopsided, IMO.
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#36 Jul 08 2012 at 3:02 AM Rating: Good
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I read her (his????!???!?!?) posts and... I don't know what to say.......
How can one person be so stubborn about a inefficient subjob, hell she( oh I give up, wha tthe hell is "its" gender?) hardly even defends it.
I gave up half way through, so much ass from one person XD
#37 Jul 08 2012 at 6:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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On the matter of cookie cuttering, that reminds of me when I did the Ouryu CoP mission.

Some guy in WG was shouting to do it as a BLM burn. I can't remember if I needed the mission or if I was like "BLM burn? Fvck yeah!" (My only two leveled jobs at that point would have been WHM and BLM.) But it wasn't in the strats on wiki. We trudge down there, and the guy realizes he forgot the weakness item. Like hell we were going to waste the hour it took us to get through that stupid cock block time wasting game mechanic of a level capped zone. (it takes long enough to get there even with no aggro!)

So anyhow, it takes us 3 runs (because of the lack of the weakness item), but we beat him, and I put up our strat on wiki. Within a couple of weeks, others had improved on it.

Sure, you can follow the old cookie cutter strat.

Or you can come up with a new one. Which is a lot more fun.
#38 Jul 08 2012 at 6:27 AM Rating: Good
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Elwynbelwyn wrote:
On the matter of cookie cuttering, that reminds of me when I did the Ouryu CoP mission.

Some guy in WG was shouting to do it as a BLM burn.


If he was shouting in Whitegate then there's no chance that you invented that strategy because it was in use long before Whitegate existed and was one of the most obvious ways to do the fight. I'm not even certain the wiki existed when I went through CoP and BLM (and RDM, and anyone else we had that could nuke) burned it myself.


As far as the merits go, there are two situations:
1) You choose sensible merits because there aren't other sensible options.
Example: Dancer Tier 1 merits. Step Accuracy should never be meritted. Building Flourish also should really never be meritted.

2) There are two (or more) sensible alternatives and you have to choose between them, in which case you limit your character's usefulness.
Example: Dancer Tier 2 merits. Four pretty attractive options to choose between. If you want to solo more, you go for Fan Dance and Closed Position. If you want to DD more, you go for Saber Dance and No Foot Rise. Either way, you didn't choose the other set and that's the cost to you.


The argument I'm putting forth is that #2 is a bad way to end character development in a game that relies on the Job System (versatility) and that totally removing the merit point category caps would not lead to major balance issues because most merit categories are like #1 or, in the case of #2s, they're useful for different things.
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#39 Jul 08 2012 at 6:35 AM Rating: Good
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Byrthnoth wrote:
Elwynbelwyn wrote:
On the matter of cookie cuttering, that reminds of me when I did the Ouryu CoP mission.

Some guy in WG was shouting to do it as a BLM burn.

If he was shouting in Whitegate then there's no chance that you invented that strategy because it was in use long before Whitegate existed and was one of the most obvious ways to do the fight. I'm not even certain the wiki existed when I went through CoP and BLM (and RDM, and anyone else we had that could nuke) burned it myself.

Well excuse the hell out of me, then. I only said it wasn't up on wiki.

Just because someone thought of something before, and the knowledge got lost doesn't mean you can't "invent" it again. Nor did I even use such a strong word as "invent", nor claim that it had never been done before. It didn't exist in any way I had access to, and we completely winged it from scratch.

So take a chill pill, dude.
#40 Jul 08 2012 at 7:45 AM Rating: Decent
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/shrug, sorry for being informative?

It was just worth noting that your example was one of the two cookiecutter burn strategies for that fight that had been around since its release. That's like saying you're a unique snowflake because you invented astral flow burning Promyvion BCNMs.

Here's an Alla link: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/quests.html?fquest=584#m114180352929499
ToAU wasn't released until April. If you scroll up the page, you'll notice that such setups weren't exactly uncommon.
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#41 Jul 08 2012 at 1:24 PM Rating: Good
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GLGunblade wrote:
I read her (his????!???!?!?) posts and... I don't know what to say.......
How can one person be so stubborn about a inefficient subjob, hell she( oh I give up, wha tthe hell is "its" gender?) hardly even defends it.
I gave up half way through, so much ass from one person XD

Don't use "it" in reference to people. "It" dehumanizes them simply because you can't figure out which gender-stereotype/role/classification to apply to them, and to anyone with any knowledge about gender issues, it makes you look disgustingly ignorant and condescending. As I said, Anna was a dude. I think, of anyone here, my statements in regards to someone's ambiguous gender are something worth considering (At least, in the case where they're not intelligent enough to be a credible source on their own. If they're intelligent they obviously have the final say, I'm not Miss Cleo.)
Elwynbelwyn wrote:
Byrthnoth wrote:
Elwynbelwyn wrote:
On the matter of cookie cuttering, that reminds of me when I did the Ouryu CoP mission.

Some guy in WG was shouting to do it as a BLM burn.

If he was shouting in Whitegate then there's no chance that you invented that strategy because it was in use long before Whitegate existed and was one of the most obvious ways to do the fight. I'm not even certain the wiki existed when I went through CoP and BLM (and RDM, and anyone else we had that could nuke) burned it myself.

Well excuse the hell out of me, then. I only said it wasn't up on wiki.

Just because someone thought of something before, and the knowledge got lost doesn't mean you can't "invent" it again. Nor did I even use such a strong word as "invent", nor claim that it had never been done before. It didn't exist in any way I had access to, and we completely winged it from scratch.

So take a chill pill, dude.


Oh hush and get off Byrth's balls.

Byrthnoth wrote:
/shrug, sorry for being informative?

It was just worth noting that your example was one of the two cookiecutter burn strategies for that fight that had been around since its release. That's like saying you're a unique snowflake because you invented astral flow burning Promyvion BCNMs.

Here's an Alla link: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/quests.html?fquest=584#m114180352929499
ToAU wasn't released until April. If you scroll up the page, you'll notice that such setups weren't exactly uncommon.

Remember byrth: =10 was doing Official Forum style posting before the official forum existed. Tread carefully and don't take anyone seriously enough to let them rustle your jimmies.
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Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#42 Jul 08 2012 at 2:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Byrthnoth wrote:
That's like saying you're a unique snowflake because you invented astral flow burning Promyvion BCNMs.

Incidentally, if *I* said that, I might be able to get away with it.
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#43 Jul 08 2012 at 6:23 PM Rating: Good
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Erecia wrote:
Byrthnoth wrote:
That's like saying you're a unique snowflake because you invented astral flow burning Promyvion BCNMs.

Incidentally, if *I* said that, I might be able to get away with it.

Yea, anyone's who's been around long enough to have used your guide before SE made most of it irrelevant by changing sh*t would probably not put up to much of an argument with that, and anyone who wasn't hasn't been around long enough to have an opinion on the matter worth listening to.
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#44 Jul 10 2012 at 1:26 AM Rating: Good
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axciom wrote:
Oh GAWD, not too versatile!

The horror!


Smiley: oyvey

Was thinking that, how can adding more make the jobs more versatile? I mean adding another 10 merits on to GK isnt going to make my NIN use it as preference still Katana all the way!

Anyone guess why versatile? we talking about making an RDM DD once more?
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#45 Jul 10 2012 at 3:06 AM Rating: Good
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I always get the feeling those afraid of cap increases think FFXI would turn into this.
#46 Jul 10 2012 at 4:39 PM Rating: Default
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Lonix wrote:
axciom wrote:
Oh GAWD, not too versatile!

The horror!


Smiley: oyvey

Was thinking that, how can adding more make the jobs more versatile? I mean adding another 10 merits on to GK isnt going to make my NIN use it as preference still Katana all the way!

Anyone guess why versatile? we talking about making an RDM DD once more?


IT doesn't make you more versatile, just unnecessarily powerful.If you're going to have unlimited merits, I would rather have my merits focus on abilities and spells as opposed to attributes. I would rather have increased level caps for higher attributes.
#47 Jul 10 2012 at 6:47 PM Rating: Good
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It also be nice if they added merits for the emp/relic/mythric weaponskills.



Yes!

They could even make it a lengthy or decently hard/annoying quest that lets you use and merit the ws independently from the weapon after you obtained it (lvl 75 version for relics 85 for empy) kinda like wsnm+1
#48 Jul 10 2012 at 6:53 PM Rating: Decent
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I got excited until I realized I might not be able to also merit Defender recast in addition to the 5/5 I have in Zerk/2x. Really would have also loved to have maxed Aggressive Aim...

It was not meant to be.
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