Edited, Nov 19th 2009 8:14pm by Wordaen

Interesting, they actually address the same-gender issue directly.
So, from reading this, I take that same-gender couples can get Matrimony Rings engraved with each other's names, which can suffice for many people, they just can't obtain the marriage certificate.

Also interesting to see that the rings are different than the ones used for the traditional weddings in the past, which were labeled "Wedding Rings". This is nice, at least those couples who went through the trouble of applying for a wedding and going through the whole process will have something to show for it (i.e. the unique Wedding Ring). I would know, since I was the chaperon for a wedding at the beginning of the year (pics on my FFXIAH profile, on my sig).

~FILIUS

Edited, Nov 18th 2009 2:45am by FiliusLunae

I wonder whether it be like crafting where your marriage can suddenly fail for no apparent reason.

Maybe people can submit their "success" rate to wiki. lol

Shut up. That is the most discriminatory garbage I have read in a long time with reference to gay marriage. Gay marriage shouldn't even be a question, it should come part and parcel under the bracket of marriage, along with heterosexual marriage.

I don't care how you justify it, it's 2009 and gay people don't need stupid systems like this that suggests gay relationships are any different from straight ones.

Maybe you don't care, because you are not gay. But I feel obliged to speak when people make stupid comparisons like the one above in the hope that one day people will be more informed.

Forget letting gay people getting married; We should be trying to prevent straight people from getting married. Considering the odds of a married couple remaining married is, at best, 50/50, the entire institution should be abolished. I'd say a new system should be built upon the ashes of the olde, but I think its pretty stupid to want to reward people just to entice them to "be together" for a lengthy period of time. It should just be a natural decision. "Hey, I want to be with this person because I feel strongly for them," not "Hey, I want to be with this person because I'll pay less taxes and less on health insurance and stupid people I don't care about will think better of me."

Coincidentally, its called an institution because you have to be insane to think you want to get in.

Edited, Nov 18th 2009 10:05am by lolgaxe

See that we already have controversy, agreed in that SE would not want to touch it with a 10 foot pole.

Hey, stop derailing the thread, butt munch!









Man, I should really cut down on the sarcasm, but it's so much fun

Fynlar, I don't think it eluded Mikenyc that gay and straight marriage are technically different. I assume he was pointing out that they shouldn't be TREATED differently with respect to the privileges and benefits they can enjoy in RL and in FFXI. Policies like SE's marriage announcement continue to perpetuate the differences in how they are TREATED. Obviously, we haven't reached the point in the United States and other countries where they are treated equally, but SE's policies simply reinforce that unequal treatment instead of try to break it down. Not surprising, of course. We are talking about a game company, and a Japanese one at that, erring on the side of conservatism. But that doesn't make it any less valid to point out and criticize, nor does it make Mikenyc not "smart enough" to make such criticism where it is appropriate to do so.

Also, the reason why your argument about comparing gay marriage to mandragora marriage is discriminatory is that it ties into an old and offensive argument traditionally used by opponents of gay marriage. Those opponents have compared gay marriage to bestiality, using arguments like the following:

"If guys or girls can marry each other, shouldn't I be allowed to marry an animal if I wanted to?"

"If we want the state to recognize the relationship between two girls or two guys, shouldn't it also recognize the relationship between myself and my cow Bessie?"

People have called those types of arguments offensive, reductive, straw-man, and not inherently logical. It's almost like saying "why should black people be allowed to vote if my dog Fido can't?"

If you're from Windurst, your wedding vows depend on what job you are:

- Warrior
Even should my body break,
and my fated end be near,
I shall fight with all my might for you;
no man nor beast I fear.

- Monk
Even should my knuckles shatter,
and my steadfast spirit fade,
I shall stand 'til the last for you;
our promise has been made.

- White Mage
Even should my heart's soul wither,
and my healing spells run dry,
I shall mend your fettered wounds;
naught a tear drop from your eye.

- Black Mage
Yet even if my mind does fade,
and my powers come to naught,
A flame to warm you I'll conjure;
such love can ne'er be bought.

- Red Mage
Even with my magic spent,
and my faithful sword broken,
My spirits of love are summoned true;
these words, they must be spoken.

- Thief
Even if my reflexes slow,
and my luck in battle dwindles,
My love for you shall never flee;
inside my soul it kindles.

- Paladin
Even should my shield split,
and my sturdy armor rust,
I'll defend you from any harm;
my honor you can trust.

- Dark Knight
Should my heart fall to darkness,
and my bones reduce to dust,
I shall rise once again for you;
my love for you is just.

- Beastmaster
Should my beasts turn against me,
and bear their bloody claws,
My passion for you shall never be tamed;
my inner instinct draws.

- Bard
Even should my voice go hoarse,
and my steady hands tremble,
My ode of passion is played for you;
our love it shall resemble.

- Ranger
Even should my eyes grow dark,
and my once trusted aim falter,
My sights shall remain on your heart;
your love shall be my altar.

- Samurai
Even should my katana rust,
and my honor be decayed,
No creature can defile our love;
I shall fend off every blade.

- Ninja
Even if my skills should wane,
and my keen senses go dull,
The darkest shadows pose no risk;
our love shall conquer all.

- Dragoon
Even at the breaking of my lance,
and my wyvern's last breath,
I'll leap into the fray for you;
close by your side 'til death.

- Summoner
Despite my mana running dry,
and pacts with avatars broken,
My spirits of love are summoned true;
these words, they must be spoken.

- Blue Mage
Even should my spirit be tainted,
and my heart and soul devoured,
My last breath I pledge to you;
eternal love has flowered.

- Corsair
If I should lose my treasured compass,
and be at the mercy of the waves,
My voyage with you shall e'er continue;
your love my spirit craves.

- Puppetmaster
Even should my talent falter,
and the cheers and laughter die,
For a smile from you I shall perform;
ne'er will I see you cry.



If you're from San d'Oria, your wedding vows are based on what weapon you're equipping:


- Hand-to-hand
I will be [bride]'s fists.
I will follow [bride]'s will,
beating away harm's edge,
and repelling her foes, always.

I will be [groom]'s fists.
I will follow [groom]'s will,
beating away harm's edge,
and repelling his foes, always.

- Swords/Great Swords
I will be [bride]'s sword.
I will be at [bride]'s side,
defending her from harm's edge,
and repelling her foes, always.

I will be [groom]'s sword.
I will be at [groom]'s side,
defending him from harm's edge,
and repelling his foes, always.

- Daggers
I will be [bride]'s dagger.
I will be at [bride]'s side,
defending her from harm's edge,
and repelling her foes, always.

I will be [groom]'s dagger.
I will be at [groom]'s side,
defending him from harm's edge,
and repelling his foes, always.

- Axes/Great Axes
I will be [bride]'s axe.
I will be at [bride]'s side,
a blade sworn by sacred oath,
felling what evil may approach, always.

I will be [groom]'s axe.
I will be at [groom]'s side,
a blade sworn by sacred oath,
felling what evil may approach, always.

- Polearms
I will be [bride]'s spear.
I will be at [bride]'s side,
delivering a strike sworn by sacred oath,
turning what evil may approach, always.

I will be [groom]'s spear.
I will be at [groom]'s side,
delivering a strike sworn by sacred oath,
turning what evil may approach, always.

- Scythes
I will be [bride]'s scythe.
I will be at [bride]'s side,
a blade sworn by sacred oath,
hewing what evil may approach, always.

I will be [groom]'s scythe.
I will be at [groom]'s side,
a blade sworn by sacred oath,
hewing what evil may approach, always.

- Clubs
I will be [bride]'s wand/hammer.
I will be at [bride]'s side,
beating away harm's edge,
and smiting what evil may approach, always.

I will be [groom]'s wand/hammer.
I will be at [groom]'s side,
beating away harm's edge,
and smiting what evil may approach, always.

- Staves
I will be [bride]'s staff.
I will be at [bride]'s side,
lending support for her journey,
and lighting the darkened path, always.

I will be [groom]'s staff.
I will be at [groom]'s side,
lending support for his journey,
and lighting the darkened path, always.

- Katana/Great Katana
I will be [bride]'s katana.
I will be at [bride]'s side,
defending her from harm's edge,
and rending what evil may approach, always.

I will be [groom]'s katana.
I will be at [groom]'s side,
defending him from harm's edge,
and rending what evil may approach, always.

- Bows
I will be [bride]'s bow.
I will be at [bride]'s side,
firing a bolt sworn by sacred oath,
striking true her foes, always.

I will be [groom]'s bow.
I will be at [groom]'s side,
firing a bolt sworn by sacred oath,
striking true his foes, always.

- Firearms
I will be [bride]'s rifle.
I will be at [bride]'s side,
firing bullets sworn by sacred oath,
striking true her foes, always.

I will be [groom]'s rifle.
I will be at [groom]'s side,
firing bullets sworn by sacred oath,
striking true his foes, always.

- Throwing weapons
I will be [bride]'s boomerang/chakram.
Should evil approach her,
I will fly to strike it down,
only to return to [bride]'s side, always.

I will be [groom]'s boomerang/chakram.
Should evil approach him,
I will fly to strike it down,
only to return to [groom]'s side, always.

-Instruments
I will be [bride]'s flute/lyre.
I will be at [bride]'s side,
playing melodies of benediction,
and songs of love, always.

I will be [groom]'s flute/lyre.
I will be at [groom]'s side,
playing melodies of benediction,
and songs of love, always.



Apparently, if you're from Bastok, you just sing 'Ode to the Mines' then go back to work...





Edited, Nov 18th 2009 11:36am by jtftaru

If you buy rings from NPC, I'm guessing they won't be signed?

Yeah, like I need to hear this when I get home to my MH:

"I saw you leave the Shepherd's Muster with that floosie on Windsday. Then where did you go? Strolling up here on Iceday like nothing had happened. I'm going home to mother."

or

"I slaved over hot fire crystals all day to prepare you a hot meal and then you show up 7 hours late. I don't give a damn about Dynamis Lad or whatever his name is or his minions. When you know I'm making you a hot meal, you better be home on time. You could have at least /telled me."

I'm staying single.

Spoilers: she's a man, man - all marriage in FFXI is gay marriage.

A little disappointed that SE didn't use this opportunity to let same-sex get married, but as FiliusLunae mentioned, there is sorta a 'wink!' in there. No reason you can't get engraved rings, get tuxes/dresses, create your own wedding, say the vows, et al. You're only missing that certificate thing and it's not like FFXI has inheritance, visitation rights, tax breaks etc to worry about as in the Real.

It seems like prices went way up. When I was saving for a wedding before it seemed like my choice of venue and supplies would be a few hundred thousand - certainly no more than 4 or 500k including the reception. Now the suits and rings alone cost 800k to say nothing of the supplies.

Question that wasn't entirely clear - do we still have the option to have a GM "Wedding Master" officiate the ceremonies, or do it all ourselves now and our choice is "normal package" or "create your own"?

Another question - the venues listed no longer list prices or capacities. Also, they took Purgonorgo off the list, and that site in Sarutabaruta overlooking the sea - do you think we're no longer allowed to have 'outside' weddings? Hmm...

Too bad I don't play FFXI anymore, I'd be the biggest bigamist ever. I'd marry everyone :D

It's not really a question of intelligence so much as it is one of language gaps...

I mean, if intelligence is what provides us the right to vote, then how did George W. Bush get elected twice?! /cheap-shot

Edited, Nov 18th 2009 1:54pm by shanecf

And I'll tell you what, if mandragora (or your typical real life animal) were capable of being great and rewarding marriage partners, there definitely would be an argument for people to marry their pets in real-life or monsters in-game. But, they can't, so it's a moot point. Gay people are capable of being those, therefore they should be allowed to marry who they want in-game and in real life.

I'm not trying to be difficult or cute here, I'm simply trying to point out why your original comment comparing gay marriage to monster marriage can be construed as offensive, discriminatory, or illogical by some.

In the end, we're agreed on the fact that SE isn't going to go out of their way to support something that is out of the norm. They're a conservative Japanese game company. I would argue that simply allowing people to marry who they want shouldn't even be deemed a "political" issue, such as how it is no longer "political" to allow women or black people to vote, but we won't be at that stage for a verrrry long time! <-<



Edited, Nov 18th 2009 3:21pm by Sullender

Thankfully, you are not the one that gets to decide whether my mandragora would make a "great" or "rewarding" marriage partner. This cannot be compared to a matter such as voting which is (or at least should) be based on logic and practical data, rather than irrational, volatile human behaviors and emotions, so you might as well stop looking foolish by trying to make a connection between the two.

Hell, I remember skimming over some TV show recently with a woman who considered herself "married" to her pet dog, and had written off everything in her will to go to her dog, which understandably pissed off her four (human) children. Irrational as it may appear, there was no law that stated that she could not do this.




And I believe that if you were offended by it, not only are you a softie that can't take an obvious joke, you're a gigantic hypocrite.

In the end, it's all about different people wanting to be treated equally. How is it fair that you get to fight for your brand of "different" and it isn't offensive, but as soon as I complain that "hey, I didn't get my brand of 'different' either; how about a little sympathy for me too?" I'm suddenly the bad guy?

I suspect that these people are not such advocates of equality and tolerance as they make themselves out to be.

I generally hate dogs, they're too damned noisy.

Which I suppose can be a good thing in the 0.029309774~% chance of circumstances where it will alert you to something like a house fire, but the remaining 99.970690225~% of the time it's just being a pest.

in b4 outcries of ANIMAL/DOG HATER and whatnot

Edited, Nov 18th 2009 5:34pm by Fynlar

Yeah, what she said.

Animals cannot consent to marriage or a sexual relationship. Two adult humans of sound mind can, by any psychological definition. That's really all there is to it.

And voting is based on logical and practical data? Did you type that with a straight face? Just because it should be doesn't mean that even 1% of voters use any logic when voting.

Did you get a look at the president America had for the last 8 years? The man once used the word "lacerates" instead of "tear drops" because he saw it was a synonym for "tears" in a thesaurus.

The fact is that voting is a government-given right once withheld from women and minorities; just like marriage is currently withheld from certain legally consenting human couples. They are totally comparable, and whether or not you think they're based on "volatile" human emotions is totally irrelevant.

Not that it even matters, but I've seen people use much more volatile emotions when arguing politics and defending the candidates they'll vote for than they do when they're getting married.





You do realize the logic you're using is exactly the same as people who demanded that interracial marriage be illegal, right?

Why shouldn't a gay couple be able to see each other when one is on their death bed in the hospital? Why shouldn't they get the tax and insurance benefits of any other dedicated couple? Or have any other of the invaluable rights granted to a heterosexual couple upon marriage?

As a straight male I'd like to see gay men and women have equal treatment with me, should I ever make the decision to have a permanent life partner.

Why don't you Fynlar? I suspect you may be homophobic. People typically twist logic the most when they're scared of something.

well for what its worth marriage was a religious institution that was adopted by the state but at the heart of it still remains religious. And reasons it was adopted was not for some reason based on love but in order to transfer land and property between 2 families to the off spring of their combined DNA. Homsexual marriage can fulfil neither meaning of marriage both religiously or to produce that families can call heirs. So take the lack of marriage certificate as a civil partnership if you will and be happy. Intolerance of peoples religious ways and trying to insert something that goes against it is just as bad as intolerance of anything else. Just cause something is main stream doesn't mean its ok to be intolerant when you're the minority.

I did read it. I just wasn't convinced by it. I think comparing the right to vote with the right to marriage is logically sound. Voting and politics certainly aren't free from irrational, volatile human behaviors and emotions.

In the words of the famous Shantotto... "Why, is something burning?"

I think PunkFloyd won the thread.

I've played this game for over 4 years and never even seen anyone get married. If same sex marriages took place, that would be maybe 1 or 2 per server per year and you'd never even know about them unless you were invited.

Who cares what people do if they aren't hurting anyone else?

This argument is stupid in real life but at least there you have an argument about 'the sanctity of marriage'. Here you have nothing - the sanctity of 2 computer graphics, of which one or both may be part animal, represented by people in real life who could be any sex, undegoing a ceremony that has no binding significance to anyone or anything.

Anyone that cares enough about that to even waste minutes thinking about it when it doesn't even concern them has problems.

Ideally though, they should be using logic and reason when voting. You have just precisely outlined one of the biggest reasons why a democracy can fail -- people typically don't use them.

On the other hand, marriage, relationships, and the core concept between them (love) are not necessarily based on logic and reason. (You can't explain why kids like Apple Jacks; they just do.) In my opinion, this is not the mindset a responsible voter can take when going to the polls to vote. I don't need to defend and explain why I like/love what I do; that is all personal subjective stuff. But a responsible voter needs to have a reason for his vote. Since I don't keep track of politics at all, I don't vote. I would have no information to back up the choices I would make, and my vote could potentially contribute toward a detriment to the future of the country (infinitesimal as the contribution may be) and it wouldn't affect just me.



No, everyone is calling them different, because they are. I didn't even bring up this subject in the first place, nor am I saying that different = bad. As I've mentioned above, the mere fact that anyone would use the terms "gay" and "straight" to discern between the two types of marriage is a clear admission and recognition that they ARE different.

As for their subsequent treatment, that isn't my call to make. I didn't make FFXI, it's not my game. However, I don't find anything patently *wrong* with their system the way it is because it's a *fantasy* game that only happens to be based on several traditional values, it is not meant to be a perfect mirror of the real world; and this is the reason why I cannot, from an in-universe perspective (since that is what this whole in-game marriage thing is all about, isn't it?), get married to a mandragora.

For all we know, from an in-universe perspective, it could be that nobody in Vana'diel even knows what homosexuality is. It could very well be a completely foreign concept. People are trying to have me believe that there is something patently wrong with that, but I can't say that there is; that's just the way this particular fantasy world was made. There is no written rule that says that just because this game contains a feature of marriage, it has to draw in every possible real life correlation related to marriage.