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Multi boxers and old thnking!Follow

#1 Jan 12 2013 at 3:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Daily i see the question being asked in general and the answer is always following the old logic.

Years ago when the question was asked "what should i use as my second box"the automatic answer was almost unanimously shaman.

These days with mercs etc, the landscape of the game has changed. Unless you have a full melee group shaman is a rather poor choice.

Anymore a typical box group is comprised of SK, some form of caster and a buff class or box groups that revolve around a mage. Now for these groups a shaman is poor unless you really need heals outside of a merc. I try and try to tell people this and i get met with stubborn folks who stick to old logic.

So for those of you that dont know or want to stick to old logic, if you have a box crew that has casters you will gain much more from a bard or an enchanter as your buff class. Both have comparable slows and hastes but what they lack in other melee buffs they more than make up for in caster buffs.

Its just a shame to almost daily see someone with a SK, Wiz/mage/necro asking what for a third and seeing the chat flooded with shaman and everyone ignoring me when i say bard or chanter.

That's my rant for the night, good night zam.
#2 Jan 12 2013 at 5:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Shamans a poor choice? Then why are folks always looking for unity?
Actually shamans have a very important role as slower, that is why they are mentioned. ( That's my 25 word answer.)

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#3 Jan 12 2013 at 7:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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TouchinMyself wrote:
Anymore a typical box group is comprised of SK, some form of caster and a buff class or box groups that revolve around a mage. Now for these groups a shaman is poor unless you really need heals outside of a merc. I try and try to tell people this and i get met with stubborn folks who stick to old logic.


I must be one of those "old thinking type" as the Shaman in my 3 box (SK/Nec/Shm) is slower,healer,haste,buffs and decent dps...Effectively allowing me to suspend my healer mercs.
Once the Shaman perma-keeps Lethargy (pre slow with hot proc) and Untamed Growth on my tank he can effetively heal in HOT content at 90 which is the level HOT was designed for.

Healing Counterbias and Qiriks Recourse are also a godsend. It's just that the Shammy has to max all his healing AA's amongst other AA lines to be able to achieve this as he cant compete with a cleric(or merc) for the direct heals. Nowadays, I only pop cleric mercs for some named or some tougher tasks because of having my Shaman = no xp hit from the mercs 90% of the time.

Bards are a great class though but could not take the place of my Shaman in my set up. A Bard would be my first choice for a 4th box though ..if I had one.



Edited, Jan 12th 2013 8:54am by hexeez
#4 Jan 12 2013 at 11:56 AM Rating: Good
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Jonwin wrote:
Shamans a poor choice? Then why are folks always looking for unity?
Actually shamans have a very important role as slower, that is why they are mentioned. ( That's my 25 word answer.)



And as i already mentioned other classes can slow too and bring significantly more DPS and utility to groups with casters. Unity can be had in the GL, or you can do as i do and campfire your shaman in, buff and swap out for another class that brings more to the group.
#5 Jan 12 2013 at 1:26 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Its just a shame to almost daily see someone with a SK, Wiz/mage/necro asking what for a third and seeing the chat flooded with shaman and everyone ignoring me when i say bard or chanter.

Each to his own, and do whatever it takes to enjoy the game...

Quote:
Shamans a poor choice? Then why are folks always looking for unity?
Actually shamans have a very important role as slower, that is why they are mentioned. ( That's my 25 word answer.)

Great answer Jon!

My twentyfive word answer:
My box group has a shammy and a bard...well maybe less than twentyfive.
"aint that a shame!"
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#6 Jan 16 2013 at 3:49 AM Rating: Good
Touchin, not everyone is seeking to eke out the maximum possible from their box crew. Some people prefer ease of play over efficiency.

Yes, a Bard offers more in the way of versatility to a box team but if a person is ONLY looking for slow/haste/heal, the bard doesn't fit the bill as well as the shaman. Doesn't matter if your crew is efficient if it doesn't work the way you want it to. It's about using the tools you need. If you asked for a screwdriver and someone rolled over a Snap-On tool cart, you'd be like, "The hell? I asked for a screwdriver, not the whole freakin' tool shed" (or something similar).

For most melee, the shaman is the perfect partner. As far as I know, SK/Shaman is still the best duo in the game (well, aside from maybe Mage/Mage). So it makes sense that many still hold to that melee centric line of thinking. A pure caster duo is too much for many people to want to even consider.

Heck, I say why only run 2 or 3?
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#7 Jan 22 2013 at 8:04 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't dual box, I dual compute. Years ago my other computer was a cleric about halfway thru HoT and VoA i switched to the shammy i have. So now I run with my ranger and my shammy, love that comb. Good buffs, if i need certitude use my merc healer, about the not enough DPS look at the DoT's that shammy can do =) to be honest they can really crank it out so very hard for me sometimes to maitain agro.
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#8 Jan 22 2013 at 11:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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My old guild leader from 6-7 years ago boxed a ranger and shammy, and he swore by it. I've never played either, so can't comment myself.

Currently boxing DRU/ENC/MAG, not through any specific planning, it just sorta happened over the years :) Probably nowhere near optimal, but it works for me.

Plus, at the speed I level, changing classes now would be a killer!

Tat
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#9 Jan 27 2013 at 6:29 AM Rating: Decent
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It may be old thinking but to my mind its still good thinking...

what a bard or chanter can give a group:

CC - if you have a necro or SK or ranger or monk this is nice but not needed.

Mana regen - one word "potions"

DPS - can provide a significant dps increase

slow

what a sham can give a group

CC - With Virulent paralysis and root you can take care of a couple extras.

Buffs - there is no class with buffs that can touch a shaman and i dont like running to the guildhall for buffs every 2 hours then wasting my buffs running back to camp.

DPS - for melee toons or casters with a melee pet the shaman can boost dps alot with his panther line of spells and haste, also with a couple aa spent the dot ticks are sick.

Slow - personally i dont think that any class can out slow a shaman.


i believe that all of these can debuff to some extent but with the malo line and incapacitate line i think the shaman owns the board in debuffs also
#10 Jan 27 2013 at 11:12 AM Rating: Default
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Marance wrote:
It may be old thinking but to my mind its still good thinking...

what a bard or chanter can give a group:

CC - if you have a necro or SK or ranger or monk this is nice but not needed.


I box SK, mage, bard and the wife plays her wiz. Even with the SK having the bard pull is so much easier. And you seriously underestimate the value of CC but of course you do you are level 75 according to your other post.

Marance wrote:
Mana regen - one word "potions"


I would LOVE to see a potion thats even comparable to my bards hp/mana regen songs. One other thing if you play SK or necro (which it seems you do) potions do not stack with our lich line bard songs do (not sure on chanter buffs but i assume they do as well).

Marance wrote:
DPS - can provide a significant dps increase


The difference being shamans provide significant buffs to melee, bards and chanters provide significant buffs to all classes. The buffs that bards bring to casters are massive, the buffs they bring to melee is better than shamans.

Marance wrote:
slow


Bards have effortless AOE slow. I know shamans have AOE slow but with bard just put it in /melody and you're good to go.

Marance wrote:
what a sham can give a group

CC - With Virulent paralysis and root you can take care of a couple extras.


Yes, a 2 minute cooldown root, thats your answer to CC.

Marance wrote:
Buffs - there is no class with buffs that can touch a shaman and i dont like running to the guildhall for buffs every 2 hours then wasting my buffs running back to camp.


No, there is no class that can touch the buffs of bards. Shamans are good buffers bards are better... The only thing people stick to is unity which is very overrated.

Marance wrote:
DPS - for melee toons or casters with a melee pet the shaman can boost dps alot with his panther line of spells and haste, also with a couple aa spent the dot ticks are sick.


Again for pure melee groups its an easy choice, shaman. But for "casters with a melee pet" like you said the bard wins hands down. A mage pet should only be 40% tops of the mages DPS with a shaman you are ignoring 60% of the DPS with a shaman over bard. With necro its 20/80 at most and you are ignoring the main cause of the DPS.

Just looking at your group in the other thread you posted in. Nec, Mage, shaman with a healer merc. If you are not even using the shaman to heal in that group its a wasted group slot as far as im concerned.

You do realize that bards have a proc line as well right and its better than the panther line... Bards can take you to the haste + overhaste cap and shamans cant.

aura
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=35203

/melody these
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=35188
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=35164
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=35119
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=3066

That blows away any buffs your shaman can bring to the table, has slow and buffs healing.

So yes like i said its old thinking... Shamans are not even the best melee buffers anymore and have not been in quite a while. Bards melee buffs are better than shamans, bards caster buffs are massive.

Bards buff healing by 10% and the same song adds huge mana/hp regen. Bards buff melees haste all the way to OH cap, 38% to triple attack chance, 6% flurry, flurry added specifically to pets, increase the minimum damage of skills by 35% and increase skill damage by 4%. 28% increase in spell damage and a better proc buff than the panther line that so many people keep bringing up...

Add in 50% slow and thats just MY /melody setup.

So again enough with the old thinking. Shamans have not been the kings of melee buffing for years. Its time to stop with the automatic answers from years gone by and actually do some homework. Bards buff melee damage much better than shamans do these days, they buff caster DPS better than anyone these days. Bards are literally THE BEST BUFFER IN THE GAME.

And in direct response to you. Your group is nec, mage shaman and you use a cleric merc. Look at the songs i linked that i use and tell me what your shaman does better? Slowing is it...

Im not saying if you play a shaman you are bad or anyone should change their ways. My frustration comes from being in game and seeing people ask what to add to a group and people saying shamans are the best. Even last night, someone asked "I have a mage and a wizard what should i add" first 4 responses where shaman!
#11 Jan 27 2013 at 1:43 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
That blows away any buffs your shaman can bring to the table, has slow and buffs healing.

Wow! ...just wow!
I pulled the level 90 and up shammy and bard spell list side by side and ...I think you need some vitamins to balance your brain function out, there is no discernible advantage between one set of song/spells over the other.
As i stated earlier I box both in my group...here is why
when the bard is not singing... his songs wear off and wham-bam...no bard help.
While the proc line of shammy spells does have a comparably short duration, the shammy slows average 3 minutes duration, some longer some shorter.
While all the other buffs you are comparing haste-heals-hps are long-term...this means my shammy dies and...guess what? the buffs last generally, at least an hour.

So as stated by most wise souls here...The Bard is basically a swiss army knife...purveyor of many skills, Master of none!

Quote:
So yes like i said its old thinking...

Shamans are not even the best melee buffers anymore and have not been in for quite a while. Bards melee buffs are better than shamans, bards caster buffs are massive. Short term-and gone when the bard is dead.

Edited, Jan 27th 2013 11:45am by alwayslost
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#12 Jan 27 2013 at 1:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Just another quick word on the "Potions" (mana regen):

The level 70 potion grants 15 mana/tick. The level 68 chanter mana buff (Clairvoyance) grants 20. Fairly comparable (chanter 33% better).

By level 80, it's 20/tick for the potion, and 35/tick (rank 2) for the chanter buff. (chanter +75%)

By level 90, it's 32/tick for the potion, and 66/tick (rank 2) for the chanter buff. (chanter +106%)

I don't have numbers for the higher level potions, but the level 98 chanter buff is 105/tick for the rank 2.

So the pots are nice in a pinch, but the chanter buffs are quite a bit better, especially at the higher levels.

Tat

PS - looking at the DS potions, it's the same story. The higher level ones don't scale well at all at higher levels, compared to the buff spells.
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#13 Jan 27 2013 at 3:00 PM Rating: Default
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alwayslost wrote:
Quote:
That blows away any buffs your shaman can bring to the table, has slow and buffs healing.

Wow! ...just wow!
I pulled the level 90 and up shammy and bard spell list side by side and ...I think you need some vitamins to balance your brain function out, there is no discernible advantage between one set of song/spells over the other.


No discernible difference? Really... Look again the bards melee buffs clearly outweigh shamans and thats before you take any instrument mods into consideration.

alwayslost wrote:
As i stated earlier I box both in my group...here is why
when the bard is not singing... his songs wear off and wham-bam...no bard help.
While the proc line of shammy spells does have a comparably short duration, the shammy slows average 3 minutes duration, some longer some shorter.
While all the other buffs you are comparing haste-heals-hps are long-term...this means my shammy dies and...guess what? the buffs last generally, at least an hour.


So your reasoning is that if the shaman dies his buffs stay? Thats probably the silliest argument you could have come up with.

A). Why would the bard stop his melody? If the mob is at camp /melody is running so im not sure what you're getting at there.
B) The proc line shamans have does less damage, short duration compared to the bards lasting until he cancels melody and doing more damage on top of it.
C) Shammy slow is 3 mins and thats a plus over bard slow which is infinite until the bard cancels the song? On top of that if its resisted the shammy has to mess with recasting while bard just does nothing and waits for another tick...
D) So when the shaman dies buffs stick and thats somehow important? How about not dying in the first place?

alwayslost wrote:
So as stated by most wise souls Stubborn old timers here...The Bard is basically a swiss army knife...purveyor of many skills, Master of none Buffing!


But in the end your argument has so many holes in it that its really quite silly. Shaman is better because when the shaman dies his buffs stick? Well he may not have died if he had a bard with the 10% boost to healing song running lol.

Instead of just glancing at the buffs and claiming no difference actually LOOK. Even before considering instrument mods the bard buffs clearly pull ahead of shaman buffs especially 90-100. Add in instruments mods and its a massive difference in ADPS.
#14 Jan 27 2013 at 3:08 PM Rating: Default
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tatankaseventh wrote:
Just another quick word on the "Potions" (mana regen):

The level 70 potion grants 15 mana/tick. The level 68 chanter mana buff (Clairvoyance) grants 20. Fairly comparable (chanter 33% better).

By level 80, it's 20/tick for the potion, and 35/tick (rank 2) for the chanter buff. (chanter +75%)

By level 90, it's 32/tick for the potion, and 66/tick (rank 2) for the chanter buff. (chanter +106%)

I don't have numbers for the higher level potions, but the level 98 chanter buff is 105/tick for the rank 2.

So the pots are nice in a pinch, but the chanter buffs are quite a bit better, especially at the higher levels.

Tat

PS - looking at the DS potions, it's the same story. The higher level ones don't scale well at all at higher levels, compared to the buff spells.


The level 90 bard song pulse of renewal, with all buffing AAs and group level instrument mods is 220 mana regen 358 hp regen. Thats a level 90 song... On top of that 8% in increased healing for the group.

Old timers need to dust off their memories and go look at the instrument mods on gear from HoT+ then take a second look at those bard songs. At level 90 ROF group gear gets you resonance 26 260% instrument mods.

Does anyone on this forum have any clue how bards work these days? Surely someone here mains a bard and can set these old timers right... Its obnoxious how the old mob mentality still sticks around here.
#15 Jan 27 2013 at 4:19 PM Rating: Default
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And typical of this broke down community of ignorance the mass mentality wins over and in come the karma bombers to make the mean man that disagrees go away.

But hey rate my posts default because i disagreed with alwaysright. Sadly in this case he couldnt be more wrong and offered 0 evidence to even counter anything i said. All he said was "I looked". Give me a break. No wonder these forums are beyond dead.

Edited, Jan 27th 2013 9:46pm by TouchinMyself
#16 Jan 27 2013 at 4:39 PM Rating: Good
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1 VP and ROOT both can give viable CC for the times you dont want to wait for the FD pull or mobs bug on pull

2 where are the bards buffs to Max hp? all i see is regen and haste in your post admittedly the bard is better at those 2 things

3 how is it a wasted slot since im not using the sham to heal? he is slows and dots his heals are only 3k without a crit

4 as far as i have seen, and i even asked a few guildies that are at higher lvls a FD puller can solo pull anywhere in the game except for a few encounters where the adds are chained with the main mob.

5 necros dont need mana regen the lich line and rune keeps me at 90% constantly with chain pulling and keeping all my dots up and im only in defiant armor

6. i dont know what casters you group with but already i get huge slams on the mages nukes and necro dots... for the necro its not so bad as FD is the ultimate deaggro but the mage overaggroing is a bad thing. so you can buff my dots and nukes? i already take down anything white or lower inside the 30 sec on my shortest dot. and red is about 45 sec.

7. so noone is allowed to disagree with your posts?

Edited, Jan 27th 2013 5:54pm by Marance

Edited, Jan 27th 2013 6:02pm by Marance
#17 Jan 27 2013 at 5:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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TouchinMyself wrote:
tatankaseventh wrote:
Just another quick word on the "Potions" (mana regen):

The level 70 potion grants 15 mana/tick. The level 68 chanter mana buff (Clairvoyance) grants 20. Fairly comparable (chanter 33% better).

By level 80, it's 20/tick for the potion, and 35/tick (rank 2) for the chanter buff. (chanter +75%)

By level 90, it's 32/tick for the potion, and 66/tick (rank 2) for the chanter buff. (chanter +106%)

I don't have numbers for the higher level potions, but the level 98 chanter buff is 105/tick for the rank 2.

So the pots are nice in a pinch, but the chanter buffs are quite a bit better, especially at the higher levels.

Tat

PS - looking at the DS potions, it's the same story. The higher level ones don't scale well at all at higher levels, compared to the buff spells.


The level 90 bard song pulse of renewal, with all buffing AAs and group level instrument mods is 220 mana regen 358 hp regen. Thats a level 90 song... On top of that 8% in increased healing for the group.

Old timers need to dust off their memories and go look at the instrument mods on gear from HoT+ then take a second look at those bard songs. At level 90 ROF group gear gets you resonance 26 260% instrument mods.

Does anyone on this forum have any clue how bards work these days? Surely someone here mains a bard and can set these old timers right... Its obnoxious how the old mob mentality still sticks around here.



Dude, take a frikkin pill. I was comparing enchanter buffs to potions, since he had mentioned not needing an enchanter because he had "potions".

Never mentioned bards. I was NEVER disagreeing with you, just responding to a different part of his port than what you were responding to.

Tat
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#18 Jan 27 2013 at 8:19 PM Rating: Default
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tatankaseventh wrote:
TouchinMyself wrote:
tatankaseventh wrote:
Just another quick word on the "Potions" (mana regen):

The level 70 potion grants 15 mana/tick. The level 68 chanter mana buff (Clairvoyance) grants 20. Fairly comparable (chanter 33% better).

By level 80, it's 20/tick for the potion, and 35/tick (rank 2) for the chanter buff. (chanter +75%)

By level 90, it's 32/tick for the potion, and 66/tick (rank 2) for the chanter buff. (chanter +106%)

I don't have numbers for the higher level potions, but the level 98 chanter buff is 105/tick for the rank 2.

So the pots are nice in a pinch, but the chanter buffs are quite a bit better, especially at the higher levels.

Tat

PS - looking at the DS potions, it's the same story. The higher level ones don't scale well at all at higher levels, compared to the buff spells.


The level 90 bard song pulse of renewal, with all buffing AAs and group level instrument mods is 220 mana regen 358 hp regen. Thats a level 90 song... On top of that 8% in increased healing for the group.

Old timers need to dust off their memories and go look at the instrument mods on gear from HoT+ then take a second look at those bard songs. At level 90 ROF group gear gets you resonance 26 260% instrument mods.

Does anyone on this forum have any clue how bards work these days? Surely someone here mains a bard and can set these old timers right... Its obnoxious how the old mob mentality still sticks around here.



Dude, take a frikkin pill. I was comparing enchanter buffs to potions, since he had mentioned not needing an enchanter because he had "potions".

Never mentioned bards. I was NEVER disagreeing with you, just responding to a different part of his port than what you were responding to.

Tat


I was not disagreeing with you. Just expanding on what you said to make a point. The people on these forums consider themselves vastly knowledgeable when most of them barely have a clue and instead of actually looking at something they disagree with and checking it out they simple give anecdotal and flimsy arguments and when that fails just hit the rate button to make it disappear.

Thats the problem with zams eq forum in a nutshell. You have a bunch of high and mighty know it alls that absolutely refuse to listen to anyone not in the clique and then gang up and make the person disappear with the karma system that has utterly destroyed every forum on these boards. Look around the forums they are all quite dead and it happened the same way. A few groups sat around manipulating the karma system to put themselves above others and then used it to run off anyone they didnt like.

I have lurked these forums for many years and never bothered to make an account until recently because of this. I cant even count how many times i have seen the groups of the "elite" run off anyone who dared enter their forum and not adhere to their strict and unwritten rules of etiquette.

I really regret making an account here now. Theres so much better actual discussion on other forums. Here theres no discussion its "i disagree, here is my crappy argument that ignores half what you said and has no proof to back me up, oh **** it rate down".
#19 Jan 27 2013 at 8:41 PM Rating: Default
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Marance wrote:
1 VP and ROOT both can give viable CC for the times you dont want to wait for the FD pull or mobs bug on pull


VP and root are viable? No and no. I know you think you have it all figured out at level 75 but you dont. Come back when you actually reach content that is a challenge. That is if you dont quit when you get there like most do.

Marance wrote:
2 where are the bards buffs to Max hp? all i see is regen and haste in your post admittedly the bard is better at those 2 things


Another person who literally has no clue what bards can do. Did you even read the /melody lineup? You have a cleric merc for HP buffs you can pull out at any time.

War March of Protan wrote:
1: Increase Attack Speed by 60%
2: Increase STR by 227
3: Increase ATK by 134
4: Increase Damage Shield by 96
6: Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 35%
12: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 4%


Kaficus' Song of Suffering (bard proc mod) wrote:

1: Decrease Hitpoints by 6448


Pulse of Salarra wrote:
1: Increase Healing by 10%
2: Limit: Max Level(100) (lose 5% per level over cap)
3: Limit: Effect (Hitpoints allowed)
4: Limit: Instant spells only
5: Limit: Spell Type (Beneficial only)
6: Limit: Spell (Complete Heal excluded)
7: Limit: Spell (Complete Heal excluded)
8: Limit: Combat Skills Not Allowed
9: Increase Hitpoints by 144 per tick
10: Increase Mana by 95 per tick
11: Increase Endurance by 14 per tick


Requiem of Time wrote:
Decrease Attack Speed by 52% (L64) to 55% (L70)


Aura of Va'Ker Effect wrote:
1: Increase Spell Damage by 28%
2: Increase Haste v3 by 25%
3: Limit: Effect (Hitpoints allowed)
4: Limit: Max Level(100) (lose 5% per level over cap)
5: Limit: Spell Type (Detrimental only)
6: Limit: Target (AE PC v1 excluded)
7: Limit: Target (PB AE excluded)
8: Limit: Target (Targeted AE excluded)
9: Limit: Combat Skills Not Allowed
10: Increase Chance to Triple Attack by 25%
11: Flurry Chance (18%)
12: Pet Flurry Chance (24)


Read the bolded parts and tell me where are the shaman buffs that top that? And thats just a melody for mixed groups. Look what they can do for tanks etc. and the line of resist specific caster buffs.

Marance wrote:
3 how is it a wasted slot since im not using the sham to heal? he is slows and dots his heals are only 3k without a crit


Because the heals are what makes a shaman worthwhile for box groups. The DPS is poor, the buffing only matters for melee and shamans having better slows has not been a huge deal in ages since on content that matters they never fully land anyway.

Marance wrote:
4 as far as i have seen, and i even asked a few guildies that are at higher lvls a FD puller can solo pull anywhere in the game except for a few encounters where the adds are chained with the main mob.


Have you ever even FD pulled? It works great but its such a pain when you have used tools like harmonious arrow and paci/mezz spells. And anywhere in the game is a pretty big stretch. Go FD pull with your necro and tell me how fun it is.

Marance wrote:
5 necros dont need mana regen the lich line and rune keeps me at 90% constantly with chain pulling and keeping all my dots up and im only in defiant armor


Again you have not been to any meaningful content so you simply dont know. You said you run mage, necro, shaman. Necros and shamans can do fine with their own tools, just wait on that mage and tell me how far those pots go. Mages doing full burn on DPS go through mana very quickly. Even necros can shoot through a ton of mana pretty quick.

Marance wrote:
6. i dont know what casters you group with but already i get huge slams on the mages nukes and necro dots... for the necro its not so bad as FD is the ultimate deaggro but the mage overaggroing is a bad thing. so you can buff my dots and nukes? i already take down anything white or lower inside the 30 sec on my shortest dot. and red is about 45 sec.


The caster i group with would be a mage and wiz that crit for insane amounts thanks to the bard adding a **** ton of damage to their nukes and i have no aggro issues. This has to be the silliest argument in the whole thread... "I dont want to do more damage because i will take threat" play with a real tank and buy SC subtlety lol. Yes you can take things down at level 75 super fast, want a cookie? Like i said before get to some real content and come back saying the same.

Marance wrote:
7. so noone is allowed to disagree with your posts?


No disagree with me all you want but do it with facts and something to back up what you are saying not "My guildies said" or "at level 75 blah blah" or "I looked" then just click the rate down button. Basically all im getting here is BS.
#20 Jan 29 2013 at 6:12 AM Rating: Excellent
6 posts
I use VP and root now, they scale with lvl just because they are a tiny bit less reliable than charm / mezz doesnt change that. and btw i used this pairing when i was capped at 70 back when oow was out and it was challenging and root was viable then... and where is this hostility coming from? i havent been hostile and am trying to have a conversation like an adult, but yet you are doing everything short of calling me a "poopy head" to try and demean me or lessen my statement rather than put forth a cogent argument.

hello cleric and shaman buffs stack!!! so its even more HP and yes i read the lineup. and i realize that bard do more than those 2 things, i was just saying that those are 2 things that while both classes have em bards are better

you have a dot that ticks for 6448? but i would rather have 4 or 5 dots going which even at a lowly 75 each one is ticking for 900+ and its not unusual for me to crit on the sham for 1800 - 2500 a tick with 3 or 4 at the same time. and i would like to point out that i am comparing the spell of a lvl 75 sham with the spell of a lvl 100 bard

and i admit that there are things that the bard has which the shaman doesnt such as the dot boosting spell so there is no way for the shaman to top something he doesnt have, and i admit also that the bard is better to increase dps but dps increase doesnt mean much if you dont have the survivability to match.

How is the shaman dps poor? his dots are right up there ticking as high as my necros, that may change at lvl 100 but im sure the extra survivability of having a shaman there will more than compensate.

I pretty much only FD pull, to break a camp once a camp is broken i can keep chain pulling consistently yes it is easier to paci but that doesnt change the argument that a good FD puller removes the need for CC.

mana management has always been a part of EQ, but i tell ya this now i never FULL burn on the mage or shaman because they cant deaggro effectively. why would i want to kill my toons? i would rather kill the mobs. my spell casting sub. is maxxed atm and i still gank threat even from real tanks unless they are waaay over lvl.

and also i never clicked downrate or anything else on you, i am now simply because of your inability to make a point without trying to demean others or run them down, also i was a raider from the time that pop came out till right after OOW. i am not new to the game and i have played at cap for years, yes some things have changed but not the basic game mechanics, so now that your poor attitude has earned you yet another downrating i hope you have a nice day
#21 Jan 29 2013 at 6:55 AM Rating: Excellent
6 posts
i would also like to point out that the reason i started my post is just to point out that shaman and bard bring different pluses to a group, one isnt better than the other, while one may outshine the other in one area its always balanced out in another area, such as shaman having nice HP and stat buffs while bard has crowd control. in the world of boxing there is no "you must have this" it comes back to personal style of play. yes with a bard in group you will kill faster and not have mana issues even if you never learned moderation, but with a shaman you gain survivability, TONS of it.

the original post sounded to me like someone trying to state that bard or enchanter is better than a shaman for a second box, for some i am sure that its true. but the thing i love about EQ is every question has multiple correct answers.
#22 Mar 04 2013 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
1 post
TouchinMyself wrote:
tatankaseventh wrote:
Just another quick word on the "Potions" (mana regen):

The level 70 potion grants 15 mana/tick. The level 68 chanter mana buff (Clairvoyance) grants 20. Fairly comparable (chanter 33% better).

By level 80, it's 20/tick for the potion, and 35/tick (rank 2) for the chanter buff. (chanter +75%)

By level 90, it's 32/tick for the potion, and 66/tick (rank 2) for the chanter buff. (chanter +106%)

I don't have numbers for the higher level potions, but the level 98 chanter buff is 105/tick for the rank 2.

So the pots are nice in a pinch, but the chanter buffs are quite a bit better, especially at the higher levels.

Tat

PS - looking at the DS potions, it's the same story. The higher level ones don't scale well at all at higher levels, compared to the buff spells.


The level 90 bard song pulse of renewal, with all buffing AAs and group level instrument mods is 220 mana regen 358 hp regen. Thats a level 90 song... On top of that 8% in increased healing for the group.

Old timers need to dust off their memories and go look at the instrument mods on gear from HoT+ then take a second look at those bard songs. At level 90 ROF group gear gets you resonance 26 260% instrument mods.

Does anyone on this forum have any clue how bards work these days? Surely someone here mains a bard and can set these old timers right... Its obnoxious how the old mob mentality still sticks around here.


Bards are awesome, no doubt, but you are overzealous here. While instrument modifiers affect the hp regen portion of the song, they do not affect the mana regen portion (the same way instruments don't affect haste %, but do affect the other stat bonuses of a haste song like str/dex/etc). If you were an "old timer" you would know this. It's been true since day 1 of EQ.

It's confusing to newer folks because it looks like strings do affect mana regen thanks to the more modern "stats" tab on your character profile. If you sing a mana song without a string mod equipped and look at your "combat mana regen" stat, and then sing it again with a string mod equipped, the number jumps substantially. However if you watch a boxed character in your group, you can see this is a false stat. The amount of mana the character actually regains each tick is the same with or without the mod. Try it - get a boxed char in range of song and watch how much he is actually regenerating each tick without any string mod (by watching his total mana pool increase each tick), and then do it again with with a nice modifier equipped - it's the same. And thank goodness, or raids would entail a lot less weapon holding and a lot more lute holding - boring!

[Aside: The numbers above should be proof enough. Does anyone really think they'd let bards be able to provide well over double the amount of mana regen as an enchanter, as in the claim above of 220 mana regen on a lvl 90 bard vs the 105 mana regen on a lvl 98 enchanter spell? Enchanters and bards have always been close to equal, lest one class be forced to cry **** murder against the other.]
Necro Warning: This post occurred more than thirty days after the prior, and may be a necropost.
#23 Mar 04 2013 at 11:25 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Bards are awesome, no doubt, but you are overzealous here.


Overzealous?
More like...everyone just stopped responding to the idiot out of weariness...just too tiresome to combat all that retarded-ness.(new term)
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